Digital BW, The Print

Folks,

I just uploaded my paper database in FileMaker Pro  v.5 format in the Files 
area:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Paper%20
data/

The file is compressed using stuffit 5.5. If that is a problem, please let me 
know. 

If you do not have FMPro and prefer other formats, please let me know as well 
and I will export records accordingly.  Keep in mind that there are about 150 
records with dozens of fields, so something like Excel and similar  "flat" views 
would involve a lot of scrolling. 

In the future I will also make an html table of the most relevant data, for easy 
access by all. Meanwhile, if someone experienced with db formats is willing to 
convert this to other programs (Access, 4D, etc), that would be very welcome. 
I am one of two moderators on this list and can upload the converted db to the 
Files area.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Background for those few (! just kidding!) who haven't heard of this project 
before:

I got into the PiezoBW printing system late last year, and bought all inks and 
papers from inkjetmall. While that worked fine, I began to look at other papers 
to see what my options for price or quality or surfaces and color were.

I then stumbled unto the infamous renaming game that  Hahnemuhle has 
wrought upon us. Each of their distributors is free to call their papers by 
whatever name they please. Quite the opposite of, for example, Crane for 
whom Museo is Museo is Museo, and even the papers they make for Epson  
are marked as being "by Crane".  Who knows what brilliant mind came up with 
the Hahnemuhle "strategy". 

 Anyway, that lead to my realization that someone could go, for example, to 
Digital Art Suplies and pay oodles more than mediastreet  for the exact same 
thing and not realize it. I, frankly, considered this a scam and set out to make a 
database to sort out who is who. That was the humble beginnings of this 
project.

Then things got far more complex than I envisioned. There is a lot more 
papers and info out there than I thought originally. I followed discussions, sent 
the database by email -  free for the asking - and asked people to write up 
their own test results in public. So here is where this stands now:

- This is a database mostly for papers that have been tested with piezoBW.

- Multiple sources and multiple names for the same paper are provided, but 
the prices are only current as of a few months ago when I put them in. There 
are web addresses as well as entire pages with prices and info dumped 
directly from the site of the source, to avoid typing errors.

- All density reads in the db are based on printing the 100% patch with 
piezoBW using the most likely profile (noted in the db) and read with an X-Rite 
810 (status A) densitometer set to Visual (as opposed to CMY). The 
differences between different piezo profiles in the dMax is minimal. Profiles 
make the most difference in the rest of the tonal scale.

- I appreciate user feedback and incorporate it as I see fit. Sometimes my 
early judgment on a paper will change as a result of other's feedback. This is 
work in progress. Every upload will have a "freshness" date attached to the file 
name in the form of a 6-digit number (073101 means today, July 31, for 
example).

- Future updates may have new or bigger  fields to incorporate more 
commentary from people, including conflicting opinions.

- Also, a propos of this group, future updates may have new data with 
performance for other inksets.

- While no data is included yet, information on how papers do under coating 
(experiments by Martin Wesley and Mark Romine) will also be incorporated.

I consider this a communal project, and you have no idea how happy I am to 
finally post this on line (something that could not be done on a group list 
owned by any single commercial outfit). 

So, please report discrepancies or new info, including price comparisons and 
sources. The db is only as good as the data is current and accurate.

Thanks to all for their past (and future) contributions!

Antonis

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Paper%20
data/

Try this address instead of what I posted before. 

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Antonis

OK, here is what Yahoo does with long URLs: whatever ends up on the 
second line (see: "data/" below) does not end up in the address automatically. 
I was trying to save everyone a bunch of steps to get to the file, but unless you 
copy and paste the entire address as it appears here, you have to go an 
alternate route:
Just hit the Files listing to the left of the group window and you can navigate 
from there. It is in a folder called paper data. Should be pretty obvious.

Again, sorry for the inconvenience. Our mistake for spelling out the BW in the 
group name in the first place, I guess.... 

Antonis





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., antonisphoto@y... wrote:
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Paper%20
data/

> 
> Try this address instead of what I posted before. 
> 
> Sorry for the inconvenience.
> 
> Antonis

You are welcome Tim. Any suggestions for alternate formats, please let me 
know.

Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tim Spragens" <t.spragens@c...> 
wrote:

> Thanks for that, Antonis. I'll see what I can make of it with 
> programs at hand.
> 
> Tim

Antonis, 
Thanks again for taking the time and effort to produce something to share with us all.  

I do not have FMpro and would appreciate an Excel version or table (?) even if it means scrolling.  

I am testing (organic visual stereoscopic analyzers used again ) some new papers (for me) and will post results soon.

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: antonisphoto@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 4:09 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Paper database finally downloadable!!!


  Folks,

  I just uploaded my paper database in FileMaker Pro  v.5 format in the Files 
  area:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Paper%20
  data/

  The file is compressed using stuffit 5.5. If that is a problem, please let me 
  know. 

  If you do not have FMPro and prefer other formats, please let me know as well 
  and I will export records accordingly.  Keep in mind that there are about 150 
  records with dozens of fields, so something like Excel and similar  "flat" views 
  would involve a lot of scrolling. 

  In the future I will also make an html table of the most relevant data, for easy 
  access by all. Meanwhile, if someone experienced with db formats is willing to 
  convert this to other programs (Access, 4D, etc), that would be very welcome. 
  I am one of two moderators on this list and can upload the converted db to the 
  Files area.
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Background for those few (! just kidding!) who haven't heard of this project 
  before:

  I got into the PiezoBW printing system late last year, and bought all inks and 
  papers from inkjetmall. While that worked fine, I began to look at other papers 
  to see what my options for price or quality or surfaces and color were.

  I then stumbled unto the infamous renaming game that  Hahnemuhle has 
  wrought upon us. Each of their distributors is free to call their papers by 
  whatever name they please. Quite the opposite of, for example, Crane for 
  whom Museo is Museo is Museo, and even the papers they make for Epson  
  are marked as being "by Crane".  Who knows what brilliant mind came up with 
  the Hahnemuhle "strategy". 

  Anyway, that lead to my realization that someone could go, for example, to 
  Digital Art Suplies and pay oodles more than mediastreet  for the exact same 
  thing and not realize it. I, frankly, considered this a scam and set out to make a 
  database to sort out who is who. That was the humble beginnings of this 
  project.

  Then things got far more complex than I envisioned. There is a lot more 
  papers and info out there than I thought originally. I followed discussions, sent 
  the database by email -  free for the asking - and asked people to write up 
  their own test results in public. So here is where this stands now:

  - This is a database mostly for papers that have been tested with piezoBW.

  - Multiple sources and multiple names for the same paper are provided, but 
  the prices are only current as of a few months ago when I put them in. There 
  are web addresses as well as entire pages with prices and info dumped 
  directly from the site of the source, to avoid typing errors.

  - All density reads in the db are based on printing the 100% patch with 
  piezoBW using the most likely profile (noted in the db) and read with an X-Rite 
  810 (status A) densitometer set to Visual (as opposed to CMY). The 
  differences between different piezo profiles in the dMax is minimal. Profiles 
  make the most difference in the rest of the tonal scale.

  - I appreciate user feedback and incorporate it as I see fit. Sometimes my 
  early judgment on a paper will change as a result of other's feedback. This is 
  work in progress. Every upload will have a "freshness" date attached to the file 
  name in the form of a 6-digit number (073101 means today, July 31, for 
  example).

  - Future updates may have new or bigger  fields to incorporate more 
  commentary from people, including conflicting opinions.

  - Also, a propos of this group, future updates may have new data with 
  performance for other inksets.

  - While no data is included yet, information on how papers do under coating 
  (experiments by Martin Wesley and Mark Romine) will also be incorporated.

  I consider this a communal project, and you have no idea how happy I am to 
  finally post this on line (something that could not be done on a group list 
  owned by any single commercial outfit). 

  So, please report discrepancies or new info, including price comparisons and 
  sources. The db is only as good as the data is current and accurate.

  Thanks to all for their past (and future) contributions!

  Antonis



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Antonis:

antonisphoto@... wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I just uploaded my paper database in FileMaker Pro  v.5 format in the
> Files
> area:
>
> ttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Paper%20
>
> data/

From this end this appears to be a dead link, can you recheck this?

Thanks,
Mark

--
Mark Romine
MARK ROMINE PHOTOGRAPHY
227 Fairway Drive
Bloomington, IL 61701
309-662-4258
http://www.markrominephoto.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 7/31/01 5:09 PM, antonisphoto@... wrote:

> I consider this a communal project, and you have no idea how happy I am to
> finally post this on line (something that could not be done on a group list
> owned by any single commercial outfit).


Antonis and Martin,

This group has been desperate to be born for some time now. Thank you so
much for giving it life.

I have invited Paul Roark to join the list, but I think he may be on
vacation. He too has made a phenomenal contribution to the advancement of
our BW endeavors, but the Piezo list has never been the appropriate forum to
discuss it. This is!

I'm hoping Paul will choose to join us, and I'm quite confident he will, but
in the meantime I'd like to quickly drop his link, as an introduction to an
alternative ink/process that at least I, Paul himself, and Jerry Olson use
(there may be other's, I don't know).

Although Paul has adapted his "method" to the Epson 1160, and 1280, he has
generously decided to keep this system "open", and free!!!! so that users
may adapt it to other printers and papers.

So, without further ado, please check the link below for more details.

http://www.PaulRoark.com

Todd Flashner

PS, for those of you who have yet to take the plunge into quadtone or
hextone printing, or anybody who want's to save a bunch on future ink
purchases, Paul's method will save you a bundle over the Piezo inks and
driver, as it utilizes the Epson driver and MIS inks.

Things are getting very exciting on this list, and I'm so happy we don't
have to "behave" ourselves in somebody else's house, or have somebody dampen
our enthusiasm for "Alternative Methods".

Happy days are here again, the sky is blue and clear again........

In case anyone missed it along the way, Antonis cofounded this list 
with me but is not responsible for the "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" 
problem.

Yours truly blindly typed this in with no clue as to what tortures  
Yahoo had in store and which will no doubt continue to plague us!

Once we feel the list has reached "critical mass" we will move it to 
a location with a shorter address. Given the current growth rate of 
members and posts this may be sooner that we expected. 

Thank you Antonis for putting up your paper database!

Thank all of you for your interest and support!!

Martin Wesley

Thanks for that, Antonis. I'll see what I can make of it with 
programs at hand.

Tim

> I just uploaded my paper database in FileMaker Pro  v.5 format in the
> Files area:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Paper
> %20 data/


--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com

And thanks to Todd has been a sounding board, provider of sage advice 
and a cheering section since Day -1.

Thanks,
Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mwesley250@e... wrote:
> In case anyone missed it along the way, Antonis cofounded this list 
> with me but is not responsible for 
the "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" 
> problem.
> 
(snip)

on 7/31/01 5:59 PM, tflash wrote:

> So, without further ado, please check the link below for more details.
> 
> http://www.PaulRoark.com


When I posted Paul's site before I had not yet seen the updated MIS website.
They are doing a great job over there! Inkjetmall must be sweating bullets.
Anyway, go straight to MIS, and follow the link for "workflow" under MIS
Variable Mix Quadtones. It's all there, in all it's glory.

Here's both MIS links to be sure you get there:

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/quadtone.html

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow.html

Todd

PS, to be fair to the PiezoBW system, the Roak method is way cheaper, and
more flexible with it's variable tone, but the Piezo setup is lovely, and
with it's included profiles, it's easier. But if you were a tinkerer, and
experimenter in the darkroom, You might like the Roark method. Why should
all our images be the same color?

Todd,

The new MIS inks look interesting and I have been thinking about 
getting a 1280. (Just have to figure out where to put it! Need to 
save some room in case that free 7000 shows up.)

How do the MIS inks compare to the Piezo's in terms of "clog" issues? 
Any improvements there? Dmax comparison? Dither pattern or "window 
screen" problems? And I would guess that the No More Carts CIS would 
be a better choice than the MIS CIS?

Thanks,
Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., tflash <tflash@e...> wrote:
> on 7/31/01 5:59 PM, tflash wrote:
> 
> > So, without further ado, please check the link below for more 
details.
> > 
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> When I posted Paul's site before I had not yet seen the updated MIS 
website.
> They are doing a great job over there! Inkjetmall must be sweating 
bullets.
> Anyway, go straight to MIS, and follow the link for "workflow" 
under MIS
> Variable Mix Quadtones. It's all there, in all it's glory.
> 
> Here's both MIS links to be sure you get there:
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/quadtone.html
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow.html
> 
> Todd
> 
> PS, to be fair to the PiezoBW system, the Roak method is way 
cheaper, and
> more flexible with it's variable tone, but the Piezo setup is 
lovely, and
> with it's included profiles, it's easier. But if you were a 
tinkerer, and
> experimenter in the darkroom, You might like the Roark method. Why 
should
> all our images be the same color?

High Their!

The MIS inks have no clog problems, at least in the first 4 ounce set I have
used. Their double density black is as black as the piezo black.
No screen door problems at all. No dither pattern problem. The only thing
I'm a bit leery of, is their mixing and labeling. Paul Roark and I were
using the same ink set, and when it came time to order another set, they
sent me 4 bottles that were slightly different in their labels than the
previous batch. So I'm not positive they are identical to the first set.
I've got an e mail in to Bob Zeiss about that, but he hasn't answered yet.
I'm afraid to put in the new inks until I know for certain they are the same
as the last batch.

In the last batch, the yellow had the number 38 on the label, and the cyan
position had "Cyan 260".  The new bottles don't have these numbers. And some
of the new ones are labeled hex inks, where the first batch were labeled
quad inks. They probably are the same inks just relabeled, but I need to be
sure before using them.

I'm using the MIS hex inks in a 1280 and a CIS system from nomorecarts.
Their system is elegant in its design, and works perfectly.

Jerry

>  And I would guess that the No More Carts CIS would
> be a better choice than the MIS CIS?

Much less hassle to set up.

>

Hello Todd,

Paul is on vacation for a few weeks. He told me he is heading up to 
Alaska.

I have been working with Paul to develop the curves for the Epson 
7000. As you know MIS now has the Variable Tone inkset available. 
They also have a direct replacement for the Piezo inkset at a much 
lower cost.

We hope to have the 7000 curves ready in the next few weeks.

Mike

Todd,

thanks for the good news and for spreading the word. 
I hope we can do a side by side with the piezo and these alternatives.

Mike Kravit seems thrilled with the MIS inks too. I hope he joins us and tells us 
more.  He has a 7000, so I can't wait to hear the full story.

Spreading the word about this list  to others is important right now. Do you 
think Paul would be willing to put a short intro and the address on his site?

Thanks again for the bright note!

Antonis



.
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., tflash <tflash@e...> wrote:

.....
> Antonis and Martin,
> 
> This group has been desperate to be born for some time now. Thank you so
> much for giving it life.
> 
> I have invited Paul Roark to join the list, but I think he may be on
> vacation. He too has made a phenomenal contribution to the advancement 
of
> our BW endeavors, but the Piezo list has never been the appropriate forum 
to
> discuss it. This is!
> 
> I'm hoping Paul will choose to join us, and I'm quite confident he will, but
> in the meantime I'd like to quickly drop his link, as an introduction to an
> alternative ink/process that at least I, Paul himself, and Jerry Olson use
> (there may be other's, I don't know).

....

> 
> Things are getting very exciting on this list, and I'm so happy we don't
> have to "behave" ourselves in somebody else's house, or have somebody 
dampen

> our enthusiasm for "Alternative Methods".
> 
> Happy days are here again, the sky is blue and clear again........

Mike,

greetings and welcome to the list!

In the interest of making these threads easier to search and these topics not 
buried under other ones, I changed the subject line.  I would like to ask others 
too, to keep an eye on the thread titles for our own convenience.

If you have more info on the results with these inks, please post!

Is it true that one of the benefits with the MIS and the Epson driver is that you 
don't need a PC to run it? That's a major plus for those of us PC-challenged!

Any guess on archival properties yet?


Antonis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" <kravit@b...> 
wrote:

> Hello Todd,
> 
> Paul is on vacation for a few weeks. He told me he is heading up to 
> Alaska.
> 
> I have been working with Paul to develop the curves for the Epson 
> 7000. As you know MIS now has the Variable Tone inkset available. 
> They also have a direct replacement for the Piezo inkset at a much 
> lower cost.
> 
> We hope to have the 7000 curves ready in the next few weeks.
> 
> Mike

Hi Jerry,

Glad to see you on the list. We can all benefit from your 
participation. I have decided on my paper choice, Torchon and 
possibly Museo thanks to you and Steadman. Now for the inks. 

Tim





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> High Their!
> 
> The MIS inks have no clog problems, at least in the first 4 ounce 
set I have
> used. Their double density black is as black as the piezo black.
> No screen door problems at all. No dither pattern problem. The only 
thing
> I'm a bit leery of, is their mixing and labeling. Paul Roark and I 
were
> using the same ink set, and when it came time to order another set, 
they
> sent me 4 bottles that were slightly different in their labels than 
the
> previous batch. So I'm not positive they are identical to the first 
set.
> I've got an e mail in to Bob Zeiss about that, but he hasn't 
answered yet.
> I'm afraid to put in the new inks until I know for certain they are 
the same
> as the last batch.
> 
> In the last batch, the yellow had the number 38 on the label, and 
the cyan
> position had "Cyan 260".  The new bottles don't have these numbers. 
And some
> of the new ones are labeled hex inks, where the first batch were 
labeled
> quad inks. They probably are the same inks just relabeled, but I 
need to be
> sure before using them.
> 
> I'm using the MIS hex inks in a 1280 and a CIS system from 
nomorecarts.

> Their system is elegant in its design, and works perfectly.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> >  And I would guess that the No More Carts CIS would
> > be a better choice than the MIS CIS?
> 
> Much less hassle to set up.
> 
> >

Well, I'm glad Jerry's shown up because the truth is, I've been using Paul's
method as it was originally designed, which was with the Piezo inks as the
base, and Generations pigments to color the yellow position piezo ink. (the
way Paul's' method effects hue change is by varying the amount of the yellow
position ink across the print). I have yet to use the all MIS version (MIS
carbon for the base and MIS pigments for that colorant of the yellow ink
position). But Paul and Jerry use it, and they used what I am using now, and
they say the MIS version is as good as the Piezo version in every respect.
But at about 1/4 the cost. And these are fussy people! In the best sense of
the word of course.

FWIW, my Piezo/Gen combo on an 1160 with a nomorecarts CIS, has been very
clog free. An overnight rest upon installation, and one cleaning cycle
through the Epson driver has been all I've done to it for the two months
I've been running it. I happen to put a few drops of Fantastic on the
parking pad every few weeks, and turn it off most nights, but that's it.

As far as dither and artifacts go, I don't own the Piezo driver for
comparison, (where's that damn print exchange...) but I find it basically
dotless and clean. I'd say the quad prints through the 1160 using the Epson
driver is at least as good as my Epson color inks through my 1270, maybe
even better.

Todd

Oh, ask Jerry about the Dmax comparison, but from what I remember, before
Paul even went to the variable tone method, he was scripting curves to use
the piezo inks with the Epson driver, specifically for a better black. My
guess is he gets a better black, but marginally so. But it may appear
better. His curves may give a less linear progression into deepest black
than the Piezo driver (i.e., his may be steeper and more contracted),
yielding a richer low end. But again, this is conjecture on my part, as I do
not own the piezo driver. This sounds like a job for Antonis and a few 21
step grayscale charts. <g>

> Todd,
> 
> The new MIS inks look interesting and I have been thinking about
> getting a 1280. (Just have to figure out where to put it! Need to
> save some room in case that free 7000 shows up.)
> 
> How do the MIS inks compare to the Piezo's in terms of "clog" issues?
> Any improvements there? Dmax comparison? Dither pattern or "window
> screen" problems? And I would guess that the No More Carts CIS would
> be a better choice than the MIS CIS?
> 
> Thanks,
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., tflash <tflash@e...> wrote:
>> on 7/31/01 5:59 PM, tflash wrote:
>> 
>>> So, without further ado, please check the link below for more
> details.
>>> 
>>> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>> 
>> 
>> When I posted Paul's site before I had not yet seen the updated MIS
> website.
>> They are doing a great job over there! Inkjetmall must be sweating
> bullets.
>> Anyway, go straight to MIS, and follow the link for "workflow"
> under MIS
>> Variable Mix Quadtones. It's all there, in all it's glory.
>> 
>> Here's both MIS links to be sure you get there:
>> 
>> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/quadtone.html
>> 
>> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow.html
>> 
>> Todd
>> 
>> PS, to be fair to the PiezoBW system, the Roak method is way
> cheaper, and
>> more flexible with it's variable tone, but the Piezo setup is
> lovely, and
>> with it's included profiles, it's easier. But if you were a
> tinkerer, and
>> experimenter in the darkroom, You might like the Roark method. Why
> should
>> all our images be the same color?
> 
> 
> 
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

> How do the MIS inks compare to the Piezo's in terms of "clog" issues?

No experience with the Cone inks, but I can say that with the MIS Quads and
an 1160, I haven't had a bad nozzle check since day one (4 months ago). This
is with a nomorecarts CIS. Zero problems.

Tim, what do you think of Torchon? (Royal Riviera)? It is the only paper
I've ever printed on with the piezo inks that wasn't brown. It has beautiful
deep blacks with MIS variable tone inks OR piezo inks!

Wish it was just a tiny bit less textured, but it does print nice and sharp
for a textured paper.

Jerry

tyork@... wrote:

> Hi Jerry,
>
> Glad to see you on the list. We can all benefit from your
> participation. I have decided on my paper choice, Torchon and
> possibly Museo thanks to you and Steadman. Now for the inks.
>
> Tim
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > High Their!
> >
> > The MIS inks have no clog problems, at least in the first 4 ounce
> set I have
> > used. Their double density black is as black as the piezo black.
> > No screen door problems at all. No dither pattern problem. The only
> thing
> > I'm a bit leery of, is their mixing and labeling. Paul Roark and I
> were
> > using the same ink set, and when it came time to order another set,
> they
> > sent me 4 bottles that were slightly different in their labels than
> the
> > previous batch. So I'm not positive they are identical to the first
> set.
> > I've got an e mail in to Bob Zeiss about that, but he hasn't
> answered yet.
> > I'm afraid to put in the new inks until I know for certain they are
> the same
> > as the last batch.
> >
> > In the last batch, the yellow had the number 38 on the label, and
> the cyan
> > position had "Cyan 260".  The new bottles don't have these numbers.
> And some
> > of the new ones are labeled hex inks, where the first batch were
> labeled
> > quad inks. They probably are the same inks just relabeled, but I
> need to be
> > sure before using them.
> >
> > I'm using the MIS hex inks in a 1280 and a CIS system from
> nomorecarts.
> > Their system is elegant in its design, and works perfectly.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > >  And I would guess that the No More Carts CIS would
> > > be a better choice than the MIS CIS?
> >
> > Much less hassle to set up.
> >
> > >
>
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> Paul is on vacation for a few weeks. He told me he is heading up to
> Alaska.
>
> I have been working with Paul to develop the curves for the Epson
> 7000. As you know MIS now has the Variable Tone inkset available.
> They also have a direct replacement for the Piezo inkset at a much
> lower cost.
>
> We hope to have the 7000 curves ready in the next few weeks.

Have you tried the Corey or Brandin six colour workflows as well? Any
comparative thoughts?

Todd,

The Inks that Paul and I are now using are colored by MIS, so we don't have to
do any coloring. Thank God! That would be a nightmare! Paul has written 5
curves from quite brown to icy cold nearly blue. I think he has curves now for
the 1270, 1160, and 1280, and is about to release the ones for the 7000.

I'm using them in my 1280 now.

I'm nearly ready to put in another set, but the inks I got from MIS are labeled
slightly different than the first batch, and I'm not certain they are
identical. I've got a note in to Bob Zeiss, but he hasn't answered yet.

They must have a LOT of different black inks at MIS. There's dye, Pigment,
Original, Double Density, and the variable tone black. And now I hear a set of
"Piezo inks" to replace Cones, at 1/5 th the price.  I just hope the new batch
I got is exactly like the first one. The labels are slightly different.

But it is certainly possible to get great prints without piezo inks!

You can of course use the original piezo inks with the cold tones added to the
yellow position. This works great, but is still very expensive.

>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., tflash <tflash@e...> wrote:
>>>This sounds like a job for Antonis and a few 21
step grayscale charts. <g><<<

Todd,

would happily read any tests sent my way - though I doubt I have the 
monopoly on owning a densitometer...

Antonis

I also have had no clogging with MIS inks in my 1280. (Also using nomorecarts
CIS system) What a great invention!

Jerry

Moreno Polloni wrote:

> > How do the MIS inks compare to the Piezo's in terms of "clog" issues?
>
> No experience with the Cone inks, but I can say that with the MIS Quads and
> an 1160, I haven't had a bad nozzle check since day one (4 months ago). This
> is with a nomorecarts CIS. Zero problems.
>
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> Tim, what do you think of Torchon? (Royal Riviera)? It is the only paper
> I've ever printed on with the piezo inks that wasn't brown. It has beautiful
> deep blacks with MIS variable tone inks OR piezo inks!
> 
> Wish it was just a tiny bit less textured, but it does print nice and sharp
> for a textured paper.


How does the expression go? If you don't like the weather wait 5 minutes?

What difference does it make what the texture is like? You of all people
should know, next time you order it it'll be different. ;-)

Todd

on 7/31/01 10:52 PM, Jerry Olson wrote:

> Todd,
> 
> The Inks that Paul and I are now using are colored by MIS, so we don't have to
> do any coloring. Thank God! That would be a nightmare! Paul has written 5
> curves from quite brown to icy cold nearly blue. I think he has curves now for
> the 1270, 1160, and 1280, and is about to release the ones for the 7000.

so, is it fair to say that the range of this new set is even greater than my
piezo/gen set. I bet it is cause the base MIS inks are warmer, so he
probably had to extend the "yellow" cooler too, to have neutral in the
middle. I seem to stick with the three most middle curves.

I haven't been pursuing the split toning as much as I thought I would, but I
may go that route again down the road. I approached it differently than
Paul, and got it where I wanted it, but then decided I just liked a more
neutral print better.

> 
> I'm using them in my 1280 now.
> 
> I'm nearly ready to put in another set, but the inks I got from MIS are
> labeled
> slightly different than the first batch, and I'm not certain they are
> identical. I've got a note in to Bob Zeiss, but he hasn't answered yet.
> 
> They must have a LOT of different black inks at MIS. There's dye, Pigment,
> Original, Double Density, and the variable tone black. And now I hear a set of
> "Piezo inks" to replace Cones, at 1/5 th the price.

By this I guess you mean that he mixed the densities of each ink position so
that they match the Piezo's position for position? Thus you can just use
them with the piezo driver? Look out!

What he should do is the same thing, but with a cool flavor, for those who
don't want to stop using the piezo driver and profiles...

It'll be very interesting see how the much anticipated "selenium" piezo inks
will be priced now.

Todd

> I just hope the new batch
> I got is exactly like the first one. The labels are slightly different.
> 
> But it is certainly possible to get great prints without piezo inks!
> 
> You can of course use the original piezo inks with the cold tones added to the
> yellow position. This works great, but is still very expensive.
>

on 7/31/01 10:54 PM, antonisphoto@... wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., tflash <tflash@e...> wrote:
>>>> This sounds like a job for Antonis and a few 21
> step grayscale charts. <g><<<
> 
> Todd,
> 
> would happily read any tests sent my way - though I doubt I have the
> monopoly on owning a densitometer...
> 
> Antonis


 
Oops! I didn't mean you were drafted! Personally what ever Jerry and Paul
tell me by eyeballing it is good enough for me.

Todd

Hi Jerry,

The torchon is neat looking. I showed my wife a sample and she 
thought it quite different. If it prints as good as you guys say, 
then this will likely become my paper of choice. I can't thank you 
guys enough for all your help. I really do appreciate it. 

Tim








--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Tim, what do you think of Torchon? (Royal Riviera)? It is the only 
paper
> I've ever printed on with the piezo inks that wasn't brown. It has 
beautiful
> deep blacks with MIS variable tone inks OR piezo inks!
> 
> Wish it was just a tiny bit less textured, but it does print nice 
and sharp
> for a textured paper.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> tyork@a... wrote:
> 
> > Hi Jerry,
> >
> > Glad to see you on the list. We can all benefit from your
> > participation. I have decided on my paper choice, Torchon and
> > possibly Museo thanks to you and Steadman. Now for the inks.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> > <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > > High Their!
> > >
> > > The MIS inks have no clog problems, at least in the first 4 
ounce
> > set I have
> > > used. Their double density black is as black as the piezo black.
> > > No screen door problems at all. No dither pattern problem. The 
only
> > thing
> > > I'm a bit leery of, is their mixing and labeling. Paul Roark 
and I
> > were
> > > using the same ink set, and when it came time to order another 
set,
> > they
> > > sent me 4 bottles that were slightly different in their labels 
than
> > the
> > > previous batch. So I'm not positive they are identical to the 
first
> > set.
> > > I've got an e mail in to Bob Zeiss about that, but he hasn't
> > answered yet.
> > > I'm afraid to put in the new inks until I know for certain they 
are
> > the same
> > > as the last batch.
> > >
> > > In the last batch, the yellow had the number 38 on the label, 
and
> > the cyan
> > > position had "Cyan 260".  The new bottles don't have these 
numbers.
> > And some
> > > of the new ones are labeled hex inks, where the first batch were
> > labeled
> > > quad inks. They probably are the same inks just relabeled, but I
> > need to be
> > > sure before using them.
> > >
> > > I'm using the MIS hex inks in a 1280 and a CIS system from
> > nomorecarts.
> > > Their system is elegant in its design, and works perfectly.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > >  And I would guess that the No More Carts CIS would
> > > > be a better choice than the MIS CIS?
> > >
> > > Much less hassle to set up.
> > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> > unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Correct, the Epson driver is Mac friendly.

See the site, the inks were tested by RIT.  I think a 48 year life is given.

Helene

<< Is it true that one of the benefits with the MIS and the Epson driver is 
that you 
don't need a PC to run it? That's a major plus for those of us PC-challenged!

Any guess on archival properties yet? >>

That would be funny if it wasn't probably true...

Jerry

tflash wrote:

> > Tim, what do you think of Torchon? (Royal Riviera)? It is the only paper
> > I've ever printed on with the piezo inks that wasn't brown. It has beautiful
> > deep blacks with MIS variable tone inks OR piezo inks!
> >
> > Wish it was just a tiny bit less textured, but it does print nice and sharp
> > for a textured paper.
>
> How does the expression go? If you don't like the weather wait 5 minutes?
>
> What difference does it make what the texture is like? You of all people
> should know, next time you order it it'll be different. ;-)
>
> Todd
>
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jerry,

When I work for Memorex computer tape I could not begin to count the 
number changes that were made to the products and never communicated 
to the customers. I suspect the paper industry is much the same. 
Thinking of the different markings on the bottle of inks you got from 
MIS, the ink makers also. If they are well done changes the end user 
should never know of course.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> That would be funny if it wasn't probably true...
> 
> Jerry
> 
> tflash wrote:
> 
> > > Tim, what do you think of Torchon? (Royal Riviera)? It is the 
only paper
> > > I've ever printed on with the piezo inks that wasn't brown. It 
has beautiful
> > > deep blacks with MIS variable tone inks OR piezo inks!
> > >
> > > Wish it was just a tiny bit less textured, but it does print 
nice and sharp
> > > for a textured paper.
> >
> > How does the expression go? If you don't like the weather wait 5 
minutes?
> >
> > What difference does it make what the texture is like? You of all 
people
> > should know, next time you order it it'll be different. ;-)
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> > If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> > unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Yes, but if it is different, I have just ruined a CIS system the cost of the
inks, and much time. They just shouldn't change anything that would be
noticeable unless they tell the customer.

Jerry




mwesley250@... wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> When I work for Memorex computer tape I could not begin to count the
> number changes that were made to the products and never communicated
> to the customers. I suspect the paper industry is much the same.
> Thinking of the different markings on the bottle of inks you got from
> MIS, the ink makers also. If they are well done changes the end user
> should never know of course.
>
> Martin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > That would be funny if it wasn't probably true...
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > tflash wrote:
> >
> > > > Tim, what do you think of Torchon? (Royal Riviera)? It is the
> only paper
> > > > I've ever printed on with the piezo inks that wasn't brown. It
> has beautiful
> > > > deep blacks with MIS variable tone inks OR piezo inks!
> > > >
> > > > Wish it was just a tiny bit less textured, but it does print
> nice and sharp
> > > > for a textured paper.
> > >
> > > How does the expression go? If you don't like the weather wait 5
> minutes?
> > >
> > > What difference does it make what the texture is like? You of all
> people
> > > should know, next time you order it it'll be different. ;-)
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > >
> > > If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> > > unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> > > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@y...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jerry,

Agreed! Especially in your situation you need to get confirmation 
from the manufacturer. As you say the time, money and lost production 
to correct an error by adding the wrong ink doesn't bear thinking 
about! Any unexpected change in labeling or identification should be 
carefully investigated.

Lot-to-lot variation with the papers is bad enough and annoying when 
the changes are obviously deliberate and no notice is given.

With ink production some variation is probably unavoidable, like 
changing emulsion number with silver paper. The new wrinkle here is 
that with CIS we are adding the new batch into the old batch a bit at 
a time so we may see a slow drift in tone rather than a sudden change.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Yes, but if it is different, I have just ruined a CIS system the 
cost of the
> inks, and much time. They just shouldn't change anything that would 
be
> noticeable unless they tell the customer.
> 
> Jerry
> 
(snip earlier)