Digital BW, The Print

> 
> Jerry, you are misunderstanding, Paul is making these inks for gloss
> papers...its a completely different technology...and will most likely only
> be archival with a very limited number of polymer swellable gloss papers.
> There is no dye magic bullet...dyes fade fast when unprotected...and that's
> that...they will not approach the stability of the pigment systems you are
> using now on matte fine art papers.  Now dyed polymer pigments (which is my
> guess as to how Cone made the Pieztones better)...that's another story...but
> not what I think Paul is working on...he's going to compete with Lyson for
> the BW gloss paper market.
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 6/26/02 1:38 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> 
> > Paul, Will the FS inks have better blacks than the combination I'm now
> > using in my 1280?  (VM inks, Generations enhanced blacks, your cool
> > curve) I'm still hoping for a deeper black than I'm getting. A 2.17
> > black should be amazing. I can get a deeper black with the backlight
> > film setting, but sometimes this causes too many shadow tones to go to
> > black. (Not always though) .  Please let me know if any inkset you are
> > working with has better blacks than the ones I'm now using.  Pure
> > neutral tones are fine. They don't have to be cold. Just as long as
> > there isn't even a HINT of brown in them.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Paul Roark wrote:
> >>
> >> Jerry,
> >>
> >> The great black I measured was the MIS DYE black on Epson Photo paper.  I
> >> don't think it's new.  I'm sure it fades quickly -- like all dyes I'm aware
> >> of.  (The paper advances have helped dyes considerably, apparently.)
> >>
> >> I now have a dye-based FS/Piezo-compatible inkset in the 1160.  On Photo
> >> Paper, I'm printing Piezo software prints with blacks measuring 2.17.  With
> >> the Epson driver and RGB workflow, the blacks are an astounding 2.30 --
> >> better than silver prints, I believe.   The RGB curve needs some tweaking,
> >> but that will wait until have the FS-Dye formula perfected more.  The Piezo
> >> prints have almost perfectly even steps already, but I'm just starting this
> >> experiment.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> >>
> >> __________________________________
> >>   -----Original Message-----
> >>   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> >>   Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 7:47 AM
> >>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] You want deep black? (Jerry - was Piezography
> >> Software & Inks)
> >>
> >>   Paul, Has MIS changed its formula, or added a new black?  What's the
> >>   fade rate on it as compared to the generations enhanced black? They have
> >>   so many inks, one can get really confused with them. Which of the MIS
> >>   blacks are you speaking of? Or do they only have one dye black?
> >>   Have you heard anything at all on the inks that the 2200 will be using?
> >>
> >>   Jerry
> >>
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> 
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> I hear late July.  List is supposedly $699 but has anyone have any
> idea of a "street" price yet?
> 
> Best regards,
>  Richard  
> 
> mailto:richard@c...

> I hear late July.  List is supposedly $699 but has anyone have any
> idea of a "street" price yet?
> 
> Best regards,
>  Richard

> 
> Also, does anybody know the size of the individual tanks?
> 
> Jerry
> 
> > I hear late July.  List is supposedly $699 but has anyone have any
> > idea of a "street" price yet?
> > 
> > Best regards,
> >  Richard

> 
> Epson wouldn't tell me, said I had to wait for release date. Cost of
> each cart is an issue too. I know that the 7600 pro version uses 110ml
> carts that cost about $70 each...x7<groan>. The street price IS
> $700...that is if you can find a waiting list for one<g>.
> Jim H.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> >
> > Also, does anybody know the size of the individual tanks?
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > > I hear late July.  List is supposedly $699 but has anyone have any
> > > idea of a "street" price yet?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >  Richard
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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-----Original Message-----
From: jimhayes361 [mailto:jimhayes@...] 
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:54 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200 (Was: You want deep black?)


Epson wouldn't tell me, said I had to wait for release date. Cost of 
each cart is an issue too. I know that the 7600 pro version uses 110ml 
carts that cost about $70 each...x7<groan>. The street price IS 
$700...that is if you can find a waiting list for one<g>.
Jim H.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> 
> Also, does anybody know the size of the individual tanks?
> 
> Jerry
> 
> > I hear late July.  List is supposedly $699 but has anyone have any
> > idea of a "street" price yet?
> > 
> > Best regards,
> >  Richard



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Jim,
>  
> The Epson Store is listing 2200 carts at $10.76 each with free shipping.
> Presumably, discounters will be less than that once the initial feeding
> frenzy subsides. I actually expected these carts to be more than that. I
> found some ink consumption data on the UK site based on printing an
> actual photograph. I haven't seen the photo, so I don't know how typical
> it is. The printer had a wide variation in consumption: Lt blk only did
> 74 8x10's...one of the primaries did over 400. I assume this means the
> printer leans on the grey ink instead of CMY for neutrals to avoid
> metamerism. Based on this data and $10.76 per cart, I calculated 8x12
> ink cost at $0.64 and full-bleed 13x19 at $1.66. Not great by CIS
> standards, but far better than 2000P or 12x0 using OEM, from what I've
> heard and read on the lists. (I now use 1160 and 1200 which have been
> CIS'd from day one, so I don't know for sure.)
>  
> Lloyd
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jimhayes361 [mailto:jimhayes@j...] 
> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:54 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200 (Was: You want deep black?)
> 
> 
> Epson wouldn't tell me, said I had to wait for release date. Cost of 
> each cart is an issue too. I know that the 7600 pro version uses 110ml 
> carts that cost about $70 each...x7<groan>. The street price IS 
> $700...that is if you can find a waiting list for one<g>.
> Jim H.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > 
> > Also, does anybody know the size of the individual tanks?
> > 
> > Jerry
> > 
> > > I hear late July.  List is supposedly $699 but has anyone have any
> > > idea of a "street" price yet?
> > > 
> > > Best regards,
> > >  Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: KAPTJON [mailto:kaptjon@...] 
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 7:44 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200 (Was: You want deep black?)


Nevertheless, one of the ideas of separate ink cartridges is to save
money and 
ink?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Lloyd O'Daniel"
<lodaniel@b...> wrote:
> Jim,
>  
> The Epson Store is listing 2200 carts at $10.76 each with free
shipping.
> Presumably, discounters will be less than that once the initial
feeding
> frenzy subsides. I actually expected these carts to be more than that.
I
> found some ink consumption data on the UK site based on printing an
> actual photograph. I haven't seen the photo, so I don't know how
typical
> it is. The printer had a wide variation in consumption: Lt blk only
did
> 74 8x10's...one of the primaries did over 400. I assume this means the
> printer leans on the grey ink instead of CMY for neutrals to avoid
> metamerism. Based on this data and $10.76 per cart, I calculated 8x12
> ink cost at $0.64 and full-bleed 13x19 at $1.66. Not great by CIS
> standards, but far better than 2000P or 12x0 using OEM, from what I've
> heard and read on the lists. (I now use 1160 and 1200 which have been
> CIS'd from day one, so I don't know for sure.)
>  
> Lloyd
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jimhayes361 [mailto:jimhayes@j...] 
> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:54 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200 (Was: You want deep black?)
> 
> 
> Epson wouldn't tell me, said I had to wait for release date. Cost of 
> each cart is an issue too. I know that the 7600 pro version uses 110ml

> carts that cost about $70 each...x7<groan>. The street price IS 
> $700...that is if you can find a waiting list for one<g>.
> Jim H.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > 
> > Also, does anybody know the size of the individual tanks?
> > 
> > Jerry
> > 
> > > I hear late July.  List is supposedly $699 but has anyone have any
> > > idea of a "street" price yet?
> > > 
> > > Best regards,
> > >  Richard



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: Editor P.O.V. Image Service [mailto:editor@...] 
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 9:46 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200 (Was: You want deep black?)


Lloyd O'Daniel wrote:

>Right. At least that's the "official" reason. My cynical evil twin
>realizes that individual chipped carts also makes it much harder (more
>expensive) to manufacture CIS units and 3rd party carts.
> 
>
>  
>

How about the fact that every time you swap the matte or glossy black 
cartridge out EVERY cartridge in the machine goes through a purge 
cycle...  They say it was IMPOSSIBLE to design a printer so it purged 
only the black ... YEAH... I believe that, and the orange shift has 
NOTHING to do with FLAWED cyan dyes, it was all in the paper...
PUHLEAZE!

Not like EPSON wants people wasting ink or anything... LOL

Keith





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> CIS'd from day one, so I don't know for sure.)
>  
> Lloyd
>  
>

> Nevertheless, one of the ideas of separate ink cartridges is to save 
> money and ink?
>

From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>

> How about the fact that every time you swap the matte or glossy black
> cartridge out EVERY cartridge in the machine goes through a purge
> cycle...  They say it was IMPOSSIBLE to design a printer so it purged
> only the black ... YEAH... I believe that, and the orange shift has
> NOTHING to do with FLAWED cyan dyes, it was all in the paper...  PUHLEAZE!
>
> Not like EPSON wants people wasting ink or anything... LOL

From: "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@...>


> Keith,
>
> You're preaching to the choir. :-)
>
>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Frost [mailto:bobfrost@...] 
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 1:14 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200 (Was: You want deep black?)


Lloyd,

When I was a choirboy (many years ago) we either went to sleep during
the
sermons, read a book, or played various games. We certainly didn't
listen to
the sermon!!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@...>


> Keith,
>
> You're preaching to the choir. :-)
>
>


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> resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: culturalvisions [mailto:fmward@...] 
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:54 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200 (Was: You want deep black?)


The 2200 could be a major step toward combining b/w and color 
in one printer, but it will be at a price.  I saw on one preview that 
an 11X14 print is estimated to use $4.00 in ink.   That is not 
cheap.  

I've been using a 2000P and 1160 CFS side by side for the past 
year.  One years worth of ink for the 2000P has cost me over 
$1000.  The 1160 has cost me about $200 in bottled ink and 
parts.  Advantage MIS.  The problem is that the 1160 is often 
clogging or losing vacuum.  The 2000P continually delivers 
without much head alignment or maintainance.  For problem 
free use, Epson gets my thumbs up.

Single ink cartridges have many advantages, but even the 7000 
still has almost half the ink in the cartridge when it reads empty.  
On my 2000P there may not be enough ink for a cleaning cycle, 
but there is still enough ink to print a dozen 8X10s.  I don't know 
what the theory is in not letting carts get emptier.  On my 2000P, 
when I am using black ink only, I have to change color carts every 
four black ink carts.  That's color ink lost in start-up cleaning 
cycles alone.  Even with these inherent problems with Epson 
products, I'll give individual ink carts the advantage.

That said,  I don't want to be the default beta tester for Epson's 
2200.  I was one of the first to buy the 2000P and the 
metamerism problems depressed me for months.  Now, two 
years later, Epson has finally improved the 2000P driver to 
reduce this problem.  I'll check the user comments on lists like 
this before I jump on the 2200 bandwagon.

Frank

http://www.culturalvisions.com




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Lloyd O'Daniel" 
<lodaniel@b...> wrote:
> Bob,
>  
> As a former choir director's son, I can relate. ;-)
>  
> Lloyd
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Frost [mailto:bobfrost@b...] 
> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 1:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2200 (Was: You want deep 
black?)
> 
> 
> Lloyd,
> 
> When I was a choirboy (many years ago) we either went to 
sleep during
> the
> sermons, read a book, or played various games. We certainly 
didn't
> listen to
> the sermon!!
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@b...>
> 
> 
> > Keith,
> >
> > You're preaching to the choir. :-)
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> 
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> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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or
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> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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