Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <piezography3000@yahoogroups.com>;
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 5:00 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Selenium PiezoTones, a Review


Selenium PiezoTones, a Review (Cross posted)



I received sample bottles of ConeTech's new selenium hue PiezoTone ink about
three weeks ago and have been using them steadily with a CIS in an Epson
1280 for the past two weeks.



As far as my own personal tastes go, this is the best grayscale ink set I
have seen and I prefer it to anything else I have tried. The hue and the
chromatic complexity of the prints I have been making over the past few days
is indeed right in the range that we commonly associate with selenium toned
silver fiber prints. They have slightly cool highlights and a touch of
magenta in the midtones and shadows. I have toned silver prints on Ilford,
Kodak and Oriental hanging on my living room wall and, while the Selenium PT
prints are not an exact match to any of them, they fit right in. Only their
matte surface gives them away as not being air dried silver fiber and mixed
with matte surface silver fiber would be undetectable as inkjet.



I would not call the Selenium PT inks "neutral" and probably would not like
them so much if they were. The standard selenium toned silver fiber print
that we tend to think of as neutral is in fact not neutral at all. The
nature of the specific emulsion, the color of the paper base and the manner
in which the toning was done results in a print that is subtly varies in hue
as well as tone. This variation that I call chromatic complexity is what
makes silver prints so wonderful and so alive. Even book publishers know
that a true monotone does not adequately represent a photograph and quality
books are done using 2 to 4 inks of different hue to simulate what is
happening in a silver print.



My primary paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the Selenium PT works
beautifully with this paper. I think the tone on EAM may be a bit better
though. This is my standard proofing paper but the difference in tone may
pull me back in that direction although Photo Rag is probably more archival,
has a nicer texture and brighter white, there seems to be less warming on
the EAM and the initial hue is just a bit more pleasing.



I also tried prints on Hahnem\ufffdhle German Etching and William Turner, Crane
Museo, Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine. The finished look of the print
varies a great deal with the paper you use and this is good news since it
means you can get a lot of different looks just by switching paper. The very
white Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine (Jon can we please, please have
a paper profile for Eclipse!?!?) show more blue and greater variation in hue
overall. The neutral paper base lets all the complex tones in the inks show
through. The Legion Photo Matte is too bright for my taste but the Eclipse
looks very interesting. It seems to do much better with the Selenium PT than
it did with the original Piezo inks. I tried the Orwell profile but it was
not quite right in the lower tones. On the German Etching and Wil. Turner
the prints were excellent but the cream-colored paper base cancels out a
good deal of the coolness in the highlights giving a more neutral look.
Museo is very pleasant with this ink set. Some of the coolness is lost but
it still a very nice alternative to Photo Rag and EAM.



One thing I noticed in comparison to the Warm Neutral PiezoTone inks is that
the Dmax of the Selenium is lower. The WN-PT gave Dmax readings around 1.82
with the Piezo driver and 1.9+ with the Epson driver. The Selenium-PT gave
me a Dmax of 1.72 on PR and 1.70-1.71 on EAM with the Piezo driver. With the
Epson driver on EAM I got 1.76. So the Selenium PT apparently uses a
different black than the WN-PT. This of course leads me to the idea of
trying the Selenium set with the WN black which I hope to do sometime in the
next few weeks.



What is interesting is that this difference in Dmax is not particularly
apparent in comparing the same image printed with the two PT ink sets. I am
not sure I would have noticed if I had not gotten out my photospectrometer
and taken readings.



Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare to
other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did well on
in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It takes about 12 to
24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and initial color. This
is similar to what I saw with the WN-PT. The change is not very large and
you can accurately assess your prints out of the printer reasonably well
once they are dry. After a few days the Photo Rag prints did show some
visible warm shifting but it seems slight and not objectionable. The EAM
showed much less warm shifting. This is pretty much in keeping with the
other ink sets I have tried.



Metamerism seems very slight and not at all unpleasant. In tungsten and
halogen light the prints are warmer as you would expect and the magenta
predominates a bit. In fluorescent, daylight and mixed tungsten/daylight the
prints are more neutral. Looks great under all light sources that I tried.



Like the WN-PiezoTones I experienced no clogging problems or green casts.
The CIS started right up immediately after vacuum loading and 4 nozzle
cleanings, and has passed every nozzle check since.



At this point my favorite inks for use with the Piezo driver are
Selenium-PiezoTone, Warm Neutral-PiezoTone, MIS-FS and MIS-FS Neutral in
that order. For me and my own tastes, I think the PiezoTones are the better
way to go. I especially recommend the Selenium-PT to people who are
transitioning from traditional silver fiber printing to inkjet. While you
will still need to get used to the matte surface of the papers, you will not
have to go through a big hue adjustment.



All in all the Selenium-PiezoTone inks represent a really stunning addition
to what is available for inkjet printing. With the reduced price of the
Piezo driver and these new inks, I strongly suggest you give them a try. We
each have our own likes and preferences but I will very surprised if this
does become a top contender for the most popular ink set.



Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium PiezoTones, a Review


> On 7/16/02 5:00 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
>
> > So the Selenium PT apparently uses a different black than the WN-PT
>
> According to a email that I got from John about a week ago the Selenium
> Piezotones and Neutral-Warm Piezotones use the same black.  He has also
> stated that the density of the other inks should be the same as well.
>


Robert,

You are right. I mistook a reading from an EAM wedge for a reading from a
Photo Rag wedge.

I did some other measurements and got the following:

4 Selenium wedges printed on EAM, Dmax: 1.71, 1.71, 1.71, 1.70
4 Warm Neutral wedges on EAM, Dmax: 1.71, 1.71, 1.71, 1.72

4 Selenium wedges printed on Photo Rag, Dmax: 1.78, 1.80, 1.80, 1.79
4 Warm Neutral wedges on Photo Rag, Dmax: 1.79, 1.80, 1.80, 1.81

This pretty clearly indicates that the Dmax of the Warm Neutral and the
Selenium PiezoTones are the same.

Sorry for the confusion and I am glad I don't need to go off experimenting
with different blacks. I will cross post this to the Piezo list.

Martin

From: "Richard Sintchak" <richard@...>
To: "Martin Wesley" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium PiezoTones, a Review


> Tuesday, July 16, 2002, 5:00:01 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:
>
> MW> Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare
to other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did
> MW> well on in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It
takes about 12 to 24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and
> MW> initial color.
>
>
> Martin,
>
> Excellent review. Thanks for taking the time to take such good notes
> and share your experiences and thoughts. I am just getting started
> with digital B&W printing but am getting more and more satisfied with
> my results and am looking to branch off into different directions in
> search of what I find most pleasing. So far my experience lies with an
> Epson 1160 and MIS FS carts. I do find this ink just a little too warm
> for my taste. Tomorrow a new MIS CFS is arriving with MIS FS-N inks
> and I'll be trying those out for a while. I do have another 1160 and
> am considering these new Selenium PiezoTones. Can you take a moment
> and tell me your feelings and comparison of the Selenium PiezoTones to
> both the MIS FS and FS-N? I'd sure appreciate it.

Richard,

Like you I find the MIS-FS and the original Piezo inks too warm for my taste
or rather too yellow-warm. This is just a personal preference and I have
seen many fine prints made with the FS. The FS-Neutral goes a little too far
in the other direction and has a blue cast to my eye. This is a shame
because FSN is the most stable and fade resistant grayscale ink we have seen
yet. The FS Standard is known to warm considerably. Both are too
monochromatic for what I am looking for.

I tried blends of 80/20 and 50/50 FSNeutral/FSStandard that I liked better
than either at 100%. The 50/50 blend is very similar to the Warm-Neutral
PiezoTone. You can find some info and scans of these trials in the Files
section in folder:

Files > Ink Sets > MIS > MIS FS

A lot of it is just a matter of what you like. Some people prefer a print
that is very even in hue throughout the tonal range and some prefer a print
that varies in hue or varies in a certain way. Unfortunately most of the ink
sets so far have had a pretty strong yellow component that I don't like. For
me the ideal is a variation that runs from cool white through magenta to
deep purple-black or chocolate-black.It should be a variation that is so
subtle that you really have to look for it to spot it.

I think that it would be possible to mix up a set from MIS-FSN and FSS that
had more variation in hue. Perhaps if the two were blended in different
ratios for each position say K=100%K(same for both sets), M=50/50, C=80/20
and Y=90/10 (all in FSN/FSS ratios). This would be a matter of trial and
error to find the tone that appeals to you the most. The same type of thing
should be possible with the three PiezoTones allowing you to customize the
look you want.

At this point though I would suggest you try a set of the Selenium
PiezoTones next or if the FS Standard was only a little too warm the
Warm-Neutral Piezotones might suit you. If you are using prefilled
cartridges there really isn't any price advantage to the MIS inks. In
bottles it is another story. For myself I use the ink I like the best and
the cost is not a deciding factor. It is the results that count.

Martin

> 
> Selenium PiezoTones, a Review (Cross posted)
> 
> 
> 
> I received sample bottles of ConeTech's new selenium hue PiezoTone ink about three weeks ago and have been using them steadily with a CIS in an Epson 1280 for the past two weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as my own personal tastes go, this is the best grayscale ink set I have seen and I prefer it to anything else I have tried. The hue and the chromatic complexity of the prints I have been making over the past few days is indeed right in the range that we commonly associate with selenium toned silver fiber prints. They have slightly cool highlights and a touch of magenta in the midtones and shadows. I have toned silver prints on Ilford, Kodak and Oriental hanging on my living room wall and, while the Selenium PT prints are not an exact match to any of them, they fit right in. Only their matte surface gives them away as not being air dried silver fiber and mixed with matte surface silver fiber would be undetectable as inkjet.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not call the Selenium PT inks "neutral" and probably would not like them so much if they were. The standard selenium toned silver fiber print that we tend to think of as neutral is in fact not neutral at all. The nature of the specific emulsion, the color of the paper base and the manner in which the toning was done results in a print that is subtly varies in hue as well as tone. This variation that I call chromatic complexity is what makes silver prints so wonderful and so alive. Even book publishers know that a true monotone does not adequately represent a photograph and quality books are done using 2 to 4 inks of different hue to simulate what is happening in a silver print.
> 
> 
> 
> My primary paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the Selenium PT works beautifully with this paper. I think the tone on EAM may be a bit better though. This is my standard proofing paper but the difference in tone may pull me back in that direction although Photo Rag is probably more archival, has a nicer texture and brighter white, there seems to be less warming on the EAM and the initial hue is just a bit more pleasing.
> 
> 
> 
> I also tried prints on Hahnem\ufffdhle German Etching and William Turner, Crane Museo, Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine. The finished look of the print varies a great deal with the paper you use and this is good news since it means you can get a lot of different looks just by switching paper. The very white Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine (Jon can we please, please have a paper profile for Eclipse!?!?) show more blue and greater variation in hue overall. The neutral paper base lets all the complex tones in the inks show through. The Legion Photo Matte is too bright for my taste but the Eclipse looks very interesting. It seems to do much better with the Selenium PT than it did with the original Piezo inks. I tried the Orwell profile but it was not quite right in the lower tones. On the German Etching and Wil. Turner the prints were excellent but the cream-colored paper base cancels out a good deal of the coolness in the highlights giving a more neutral look. Museo is very pleasant with this ink set. Some of the coolness is lost but it still a very nice alternative to Photo Rag and EAM.
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I noticed in comparison to the Warm Neutral PiezoTone inks is that the Dmax of the Selenium is lower. The WN-PT gave Dmax readings around 1.82 with the Piezo driver and 1.9+ with the Epson driver. The Selenium-PT gave me a Dmax of 1.72 on PR and 1.70-1.71 on EAM with the Piezo driver. With the Epson driver on EAM I got 1.76. So the Selenium PT apparently uses a different black than the WN-PT. This of course leads me to the idea of trying the Selenium set with the WN black which I hope to do sometime in the next few weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> What is interesting is that this difference in Dmax is not particularly apparent in comparing the same image printed with the two PT ink sets. I am not sure I would have noticed if I had not gotten out my photospectrometer and taken readings.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare to other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did well on in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It takes about 12 to 24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and initial color. This is similar to what I saw with the WN-PT. The change is not very large and you can accurately assess your prints out of the printer reasonably well once they are dry. After a few days the Photo Rag prints did show some visible warm shifting but it seems slight and not objectionable. The EAM showed much less warm shifting. This is pretty much in keeping with the other ink sets I have tried.
> 
> 
> 
> Metamerism seems very slight and not at all unpleasant. In tungsten and halogen light the prints are warmer as you would expect and the magenta predominates a bit. In fluorescent, daylight and mixed tungsten/daylight the prints are more neutral. Looks great under all light sources that I tried.
> 
> 
> 
> Like the WN-PiezoTones I experienced no clogging problems or green casts. The CIS started right up immediately after vacuum loading and 4 nozzle cleanings, and has passed every nozzle check since.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point my favorite inks for use with the Piezo driver are Selenium-PiezoTone, Warm Neutral-PiezoTone, MIS-FS and MIS-FS Neutral in that order. For me and my own tastes, I think the PiezoTones are the better way to go. I especially recommend the Selenium-PT to people who are transitioning from traditional silver fiber printing to inkjet. While you will still need to get used to the matte surface of the papers, you will not have to go through a big hue adjustment.
> 
> 
> 
> All in all the Selenium-PiezoTone inks represent a really stunning addition to what is available for inkjet printing. With the reduced price of the Piezo driver and these new inks, I strongly suggest you give them a try. We each have our own likes and preferences but I will very surprised if this does become a top contender for the most popular ink set.
> 
> 
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/