Digital BW, The Print

Thought people would be interested in seeing this link

http://www.inkjetart.com/pro/7600_9600/black_mode.html

Frank
http://www.culturalvisions.com

Wednesday, July 24, 2002, 7:32:06 AM, culturalvisions wrote:

c> Thought people would be interested in seeing this link

c> http://www.inkjetart.com/pro/7600_9600/black_mode.html

c> Frank
c> http://www.culturalvisions.com

Thanks for the link Frank. Good stuff to know.

Each time I see comments on the metamerism of the new Epson printers
the answers are mostly non-commital and vague.  Mostly saying "really
good!" but never specific enough to address my concerns for this.

This linked discussion above is a good example:

".....the Light Black ink helps to reduce metamerism...".

Just "helps to reduce". For me I'm holding off on getting this printer
until I hear from more than a few people, definitively, about the
metamerism.  Or I can see for myself.

I know these printers are not widely available yet but I believe
there's a few on this list who have had the opportunity to use these
printers, or at least view some of the images made. Is it still too
early to tell if the metamerism is "acceptable", "gone", "too
much", or what?

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

On 7/24/02 2:46 PM, "Richard Sintchak" <richard@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the link Frank. Good stuff to know.
> 
> Each time I see comments on the metamerism of the new Epson printers
> the answers are mostly non-commital and vague.  Mostly saying "really
> good!" but never specific enough to address my concerns for this.


I have a 9600 and have been testing B&W prints for the big 'M'.  I don't
think there is a universal standard for what is acceptable.  For instance I
found the 2000 prints to be unacceptable printing both color AND B&W yet
others thought well enough of them to sell prints to clients.  Epson has
really come a long way with the new Ultrachromes.  I've been testing the
photo black ink on Lustre paper and the prints in my opinion are of a
quality that I am comfortable selling.  YMMV.  I have not retired my 1160
with piezotones yet and most likely will not.  The 9600 prints are very
close in overall quality based on the images I've tested.  I really need to
load the mat black and get it profiled to do an apples/apples comparison.

Lawrence
----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

Richard,

I have a couple of samples of 7600 output. Two images, each printed on
Ilford Satin and Oce Fine Art. All of them are okay but exhibit split toning
common to "neutral" B&W prints made with color ink sets. They also exhibit
metamerism that is less than 2000P output I have seen but is much worse than
any of the pigment grayscale ink sets.

I don't want to judge an ink set and printer on this one example but I would
have to see something a lot better to substitute this level of quality for
any of the MIS or Piezo inks and workflows. It may be possible to overcome
the defects I see with better use of the software or different paper
choices.

It is also interesting to note that we have reported Dmax values of 1.82 to
1.94 for the PiezoTone inks on fine art paper compared to the 1.69 reported
with the Matte Black UltraChrome inks.

For me personally a life of 100 years is not acceptable for a B&W print,
either.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Sintchak" <richard@...>
To: "culturalvisions" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 11:46 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] New Epsons: metamerism (was: Black ink info on Epson 7
ink sets)


> Wednesday, July 24, 2002, 7:32:06 AM, culturalvisions wrote:
>
> c> Thought people would be interested in seeing this link
>
> c> http://www.inkjetart.com/pro/7600_9600/black_mode.html
>
> c> Frank
> c> http://www.culturalvisions.com
>
> Thanks for the link Frank. Good stuff to know.
>
> Each time I see comments on the metamerism of the new Epson printers
> the answers are mostly non-commital and vague.  Mostly saying "really
> good!" but never specific enough to address my concerns for this.
>
> This linked discussion above is a good example:
>
> ".....the Light Black ink helps to reduce metamerism...".
>
> Just "helps to reduce". For me I'm holding off on getting this printer
> until I hear from more than a few people, definitively, about the
> metamerism.  Or I can see for myself.
>
> I know these printers are not widely available yet but I believe
> there's a few on this list who have had the opportunity to use these
> printers, or at least view some of the images made. Is it still too
> early to tell if the metamerism is "acceptable", "gone", "too
> much", or what?
>
> Best regards,
>  Richard
>
> mailto:richard@...
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

For me, it depends on the color of the metamerism and the amount. If the
print looks perfect in daylight, (Epson's 1280 oem inkset can print
beautiful black and white photographs that are dead on neutral in
daylight with legion's photo matte paper), and the metamerism is just
slightly brown in tungsten light, (It is with the 1280 oem inkset), I
can live with it. 

What I could never live with is greenish prints in daylight (epson's
older inks), and magenta in tungsten lighting.

Jerry



Richard Sintchak wrote:

> 
> Wednesday, July 24, 2002, 7:32:06 AM, culturalvisions wrote:
> 
> c> Thought people would be interested in seeing this link
> 
> c> http://www.inkjetart.com/pro/7600_9600/black_mode.html
> 
> c> Frank
> c> http://www.culturalvisions.com
> 
> Thanks for the link Frank. Good stuff to know.
> 
> Each time I see comments on the metamerism of the new Epson printers
> the answers are mostly non-commital and vague.  Mostly saying "really
> good!" but never specific enough to address my concerns for this.
> 
> This linked discussion above is a good example:
> 
> ".....the Light Black ink helps to reduce metamerism...".
> 
> Just "helps to reduce". For me I'm holding off on getting this printer
> until I hear from more than a few people, definitively, about the
> metamerism.  Or I can see for myself.
> 
> I know these printers are not widely available yet but I believe
> there's a few on this list who have had the opportunity to use these
> printers, or at least view some of the images made. Is it still too
> early to tell if the metamerism is "acceptable", "gone", "too
> much", or what?
> 
> Best regards,
>  Richard
> 
> mailto:richard@...
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I have a b+w print from the 2200.  It was printed with Ultrachrome inks, 
Matte Black, on Epson Enhanced Matte.  Although far less than the 2000, 
metamerism is quite pronounced.  The 2200 has Gray Balancer software which 
the 7600 and 9600 do not, so output from the 2200 should be the best.  I am 
interested in the 7600 and if I had to make a decision based on that one 
sample, I would not buy the printer.  However, did the sample suffer from 
pilot error or is that the best there is with this group of Epsons?  I plan 
to wait until there is more feedback.

A while back, for example, I got a color sample of the PDI target from the 
7600.  It was muddy. Since then, I have seen gorgeous color output from the 
7600.

I also hear that custom profiles improve these printers but I don't think a 
profile can eliminate metamerism which is a function of the inks used.

Helene  

<< Thanks for the link Frank. Good stuff to know.

Each time I see comments on the metamerism of the new Epson printers
the answers are mostly non-commital and vague.  Mostly saying "really
good!" but never specific enough to address my concerns for this.

This linked discussion above is a good example:

".....the Light Black ink helps to reduce metamerism...".

Just "helps to reduce". For me I'm holding off on getting this printer
until I hear from more than a few people, definitively, about the
metamerism.  Or I can see for myself.

I know these printers are not widely available yet but I believe
there's a few on this list who have had the opportunity to use these
printers, or at least view some of the images made. Is it still too
early to tell if the metamerism is "acceptable", "gone", "too
much", or what? >>

Simon,

The mid to highlight tones were green in daylight and magenta in tungsten.  
To me, that is the most objectionable form of metamerism (just my opinion).  
I don't mind prints that warm up a bit by turning brownish.  What I meant to 
convey was that the color change on the 2200 was weaker than the 2000, as if 
the magenta and green were watered down, but still objectionable to me.

I could imagine that some people might not notice it, and I have no idea 
whether or not someone else could have made a better print.   

Helene



<< Would it be possible to expand on the metamerism that you are seeing - the 
conditions, how it exhibits itself etc?  The metamerism of the 2000 was quite 
pronounced and you state that the 2200 is far less, but then go on to say it 
is quite pronounced.

I have a 2200 on order as I made the assumption that the metamerism issue 
would have been resolved or at least greatly reduced.  Any feedback on the 
degree to which this issue still remains with the 2200 would help me to 
decide whether to postpone my purchase until more feedback is available. >>

CD,

I wanted and hoped this one would do it all -- one printer, color and b+w, no 
metamerism, no CIS's -- you know, plug 'n play...push one button :)  It is 
still early and maybe it will work out better than the one sample b+w print I 
saw.  If not, I would stay with quads.  Maybe get a 2200 for color.

Helene

<< >I also hear that custom profiles improve these printers but I don't think
>a 
>profile can eliminate metamerism which is a function of the inks used.
 
It can't eliminate it, but a profile can be used to steer it; to make the 
print look good under a given light source, or to compromise for a range of 
light sources. Generally you give up on north light and fluorescent entirely, 
and focus of reducing daylight green, by increasing tungsten magenta to see 
if you can get a print that is tolerable throughout that range. If not, you 
narrow your range, and shoot for a tighter balance, under a narrower choice 
of lights, say tungsten and halogen. 

This can be accomplished with settings or sliders in the profiling software 
(the magenta>green slider in ProfilerPLUS and ProfilerPRO does a tolerable 
job of this for color work, at least) or for more exacting control, a profile 
editor can be used. I tweek the curves in DoctorPRO until I get the balance I 
want at all levels of gray without unintended crossovers, under the desired 
lighting. >>

For: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>

>For me, it depends on the color of the metamerism and the amount. If the
>print looks perfect in daylight, (Epson's 1280 oem inkset can print
>beautiful black and white photographs that are dead on neutral in
>daylight with legion's photo matte paper), and the metamerism is just
>slightly brown in tungsten light, (It is with the 1280 oem
>inkset), Ican live with it. 

1. What you're describing simply ain't metamerism: it's a fact of the physics of light that all prints will look different in different light as the light itself -- tungsten, neon, daylight, etc -- imparts colors to the print it illuminates. Thus, a perfectly neutral print will appear to be different in tone under different types of light. Metamerism is the pheneomenon that a particular tone within a neutral print will look different from the rest of the tones in the print: a "color cross-over" in plain English.

2. Also, I have made extensive tests and do not beleive that the 1280, even with the best profile, can print "dead on neutral", as you state. There is always a color cast in some of the tones (but, again, that is not metamerism).

--Mitch/Bangkok