Digital BW, The Print

Would it be possible to expand on the metamerism that you are seeing - the conditions, how it exhibits itself etc?  The metamerism of the 2000 was quite pronounced and you state that the 2200 is far less, but then go on to say it is quite pronounced.

I have a 2200 on order as I made the assumption that the metamerism issue would have been resolved or at least greatly reduced.  Any feedback on the degree to which this issue still remains with the 2200 would help me to decide whether to postpone my purchase until more feedback is available.

Thanks.

Simon

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: grdglass@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 1:07 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Epsons: metamerism (was: Black ink info on Epson 7 ink sets)


  I have a b+w print from the 2200.  It was printed with Ultrachrome inks, 
  Matte Black, on Epson Enhanced Matte.  Although far less than the 2000, 
  metamerism is quite pronounced.  The 2200 has Gray Balancer software which 
  the 7600 and 9600 do not, so output from the 2200 should be the best.  I am 
  interested in the 7600 and if I had to make a decision based on that one 
  sample, I would not buy the printer.  However, did the sample suffer from 
  pilot error or is that the best there is with this group of Epsons?  I plan 
  to wait until there is more feedback.

  A while back, for example, I got a color sample of the PDI target from the 
  7600.  It was muddy. Since then, I have seen gorgeous color output from the 
  7600.

  I also hear that custom profiles improve these printers but I don't think a 
  profile can eliminate metamerism which is a function of the inks used.

  Helene  

  << Thanks for the link Frank. Good stuff to know.

  Each time I see comments on the metamerism of the new Epson printers
  the answers are mostly non-commital and vague.  Mostly saying "really
  good!" but never specific enough to address my concerns for this.

  This linked discussion above is a good example:

  ".....the Light Black ink helps to reduce metamerism...".

  Just "helps to reduce". For me I'm holding off on getting this printer
  until I hear from more than a few people, definitively, about the
  metamerism.  Or I can see for myself.

  I know these printers are not widely available yet but I believe
  there's a few on this list who have had the opportunity to use these
  printers, or at least view some of the images made. Is it still too
  early to tell if the metamerism is "acceptable", "gone", "too
  much", or what? >>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/25/02 8:08:33 AM, grdglass@... writes:

>I also hear that custom profiles improve these printers but I don't think
>a 
>profile can eliminate metamerism which is a function of the inks used.
 
It can't eliminate it, but a profile can be used to steer it; to make the 
print look good under a given light source, or to compromise for a range of 
light sources. Generally you give up on north light and fluorescent entirely, 
and focus of reducing daylight green, by increasing tungsten magenta to see 
if you can get a print that is tolerable throughout that range. If not, you 
narrow your range, and shoot for a tighter balance, under a narrower choice 
of lights, say tungsten and halogen. 

This can be accomplished with settings or sliders in the profiling software 
(the magenta>green slider in ProfilerPLUS and ProfilerPRO does a tolerable 
job of this for color work, at least) or for more exacting control, a profile 
editor can be used. I tweek the curves in DoctorPRO until I get the balance I 
want at all levels of gray without unintended crossovers, under the desired 
lighting.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

David,

is it true that EyeOne can (or will in the near future) read the actual light falling 
on a print and balance the profile for that? Is there s/w that at least has canned 
lighting settings to choose from (as opposed to trial and error with curves)?


Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., CDTobie@a... wrote:

> This can be accomplished with settings or sliders in the profiling software 
> (the magenta>green slider in ProfilerPLUS and ProfilerPRO does a 
tolerable 

> job of this for color work, at least) or for more exacting control, a profile 
> editor can be used. I tweek the curves in DoctorPRO until I get the balance I 
> want at all levels of gray without unintended crossovers, under the desired 
> lighting.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Design Cooperative
> CDTobie@d...

Well said Mitch,

I pointed out a while ago that 'metamerism' specifically refers to the
situation where two colors are identical under one light and different under
another. That is not the same as the general shifts in color that everything
exhibits (some more, some less) under different lights. Is there a word that
describes this general shift?

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitch Alland" <malland@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 11:04 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Epsons: metamerism (was: Black ink info on
Epson 7 ink sets)


> For: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
>
> >For me, it depends on the color of the metamerism and the amount. If the
> >print looks perfect in daylight, (Epson's 1280 oem inkset can print
> >beautiful black and white photographs that are dead on neutral in
> >daylight with legion's photo matte paper), and the metamerism is just
> >slightly brown in tungsten light, (It is with the 1280 oem
> >inkset), Ican live with it.
>
> 1. What you're describing simply ain't metamerism: it's a fact of the
physics of light that all prints will look different in different light as
the light itself -- tungsten, neon, daylight, etc -- imparts colors to the
print it illuminates. Thus, a perfectly neutral print will appear to be
different in tone under different types of light. Metamerism is the
pheneomenon that a particular tone within a neutral print will look
different from the rest of the tones in the print: a "color cross-over" in
plain English.
>
> 2. Also, I have made extensive tests and do not beleive that the 1280,
even with the best profile, can print "dead on neutral", as you state. There
is always a color cast in some of the tones (but, again, that is not
metamerism).
>
> --Mitch/Bangkok
>
>
>
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Mitch, the 1280 can print beautiful toned black and white prints from
oem epson dye inks that I love. I couldn't ask for a more pleasing tone.
There is NO green or magenta in it. 

What's dead on neutral anyway? If you make 25 prints, that vary by only
1 point of color in a color adjustment layer, and lay them all out side
by side, Everyone will have a favorite tone. But there would NEVER EVER
be universal agreement as to which of those 25 prints had the best, most
pleasing color. 

The fact is, that with the inkset that came with my 1280, I'm getting
black and white prints that are Exactly the tone I want them to be. I am
100 percent satisfied with them. They couldn't be better. What else can
I say?  The next ink cartridge that I get may not be as good. These
cartridges were made in China, the first cartridges that I have ever
seen epson's name on that were made there. So it isn't the same ink as
the Japanese ink. This may be why they are so nice. Imagine me saying
that I'm pleased with a product made in China. That is certainly a first
for me! I can see only a tiny bit of metamerism between daylight and
tungsten. Beautiful in Daylight, perhaps 4 points brown in Tungsten
light. I can live with that, no problem. I cannot live with the
green/magenta metamerism though.


> 1. What you're describing simply ain't metamerism: it's a fact of the physics of light that all prints will look different in different light as the light itself -- tungsten, neon, daylight, etc -- imparts colors to the print it illuminates. Thus, a perfectly neutral print will appear to be different in tone under different types of light. Metamerism is the pheneomenon that a particular tone within a neutral print will look different from the rest of the tones in the print: a "color cross-over" in plain English.

That's not the definition I've seen for metamerism. In any case there
are no color crossovers in my current inkset, that came with the 1280
printer.  Yesterday I installed a pair of new cartridges, and they too,
were made in China. Identical to the ones that came with the printer. 
 
> 2. Also, I have made extensive tests and do not beleive that the 1280, even with the best profile, can print "dead on neutral", as you state. 

And I'm using no profile. It's as dead on as I've ever seen and the
exact color that I want.

There is always a color cast in some of the tones (but, again, that is
not metamerism).

Whatever.

I call it metamerism if they are different in one light from another.

Jerry

In a message dated 7/26/02 10:24:41 AM, bobfrost@... writes:

>I pointed out a while ago that 'metamerism' specifically refers to the
>situation where two colors are identical under one light and different
>under
>another. That is not the same as the general shifts in color that everything
>exhibits (some more, some less) under different lights. Is there a word
>that
>describes this general shift?
 
Color inconstancy. Won't win any naming contests though. 

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...