Digital BW, The Print

lawrencetrek wrote

Florescent light is the worst possible choice of lighting to use to 
evaluate a print of any kind. A selenium toned print is cool to cold in 
tone which means it's toward the blue end of the spectrum. I prefer 
this, but that is a personal preference.

Another question I have is how much control over the coolness of the 
selenium hues do you have with the Pezo system. Are there profiles that 
allow you to cool or warm the prints the same as you could in the 
darkroom by controlling the toner and time in toner or is what you get 
what you get?

Truman

 

I to have your same quandry and would be interested in seeing the answers. 

>
> So, I printed a sample b/w print on a 2200 yesterday at the camera 
> store in
> town, and noted that there was still a problem with metamerism, as the 
> print
> (on epson watercolor paper, and glossy) was definately purplish under 
> fluoro
> lights, but relatively neutral outdoors.  Under a loupe, the print was 
> rather
> good with minimal apparent dots (not that different than grain).  But,
> unfortunately it was hard to judge based on one print.  Plus, they 
> didn't have
> the matte black in the printer.
>
> My aim is to primarily print b/w images, that could potentially be 
> exhibited or
> sold and can hold up to silver images.  Is the 2200 there yet ?  If 
> not, can
> others reassure me about positive experiences with the 1280 and the PT
> carts.  Moreover, if I go the piezo route, I am tending to go towards the
> selenium hues, but I am worried just how much of a magenta cast do they
> produce.
>
>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] choice between 1280 with PiezoTone carts vs. Epson
2200 for b/w output


>
> Florescent light is the worst possible choice of lighting to use to
> evaluate a print of any kind. A selenium toned print is cool to cold in
> tone which means it's toward the blue end of the spectrum. I prefer
> this, but that is a personal preference.

Truman,

Unfortunately you will find fluorescent lighting in many galleries and in
office setting. So if you have any interest in selling through those
channels you need to have prints that still look good under that light,
unpleasant as it is.
>
> Another question I have is how much control over the coolness of the
> selenium hues do you have with the Pezo system. Are there profiles that
> allow you to cool or warm the prints the same as you could in the
> darkroom by controlling the toner and time in toner or is what you get
> what you get?
>
>
> I to have your same quandry and would be interested in seeing the answers.
>
You have no control over the hue of the print with the Piezo system other
than paper choice. This seems to have more of an effect with the Selenium PT
than some of the other inks. The blue in the grays shows up strongly on cool
or neutral papers such as EAM, Legion Photo Matte or Eclipse Satine. On warm
papers like German Etching, William Turner or Museo the amount of yellow in
the paper base color knocks out a lot of the blue you get a much warmer
print that is also less magenta as well. Photo Rag seems to fall in between
and is a choice I personally like.

The other possibility will be to combine inks from the three different
PiezoTone ink sets for a different look or to actually do some ink blending.
I did some trials like this with MIS-FS and was able to get some interesting
new hues.

Martin Wesley

> >
> > So, I printed a sample b/w print on a 2200 yesterday at the camera
> > store in
> > town, and noted that there was still a problem with metamerism, as the
> > print
> > (on epson watercolor paper, and glossy) was definately purplish under
> > fluoro
> > lights, but relatively neutral outdoors.  Under a loupe, the print was
> > rather
> > good with minimal apparent dots (not that different than grain).  But,
> > unfortunately it was hard to judge based on one print.  Plus, they
> > didn't have
> > the matte black in the printer.
> >
> > My aim is to primarily print b/w images, that could potentially be
> > exhibited or
> > sold and can hold up to silver images.  Is the 2200 there yet ?  If
> > not, can
> > others reassure me about positive experiences with the 1280 and the PT
> > carts.  Moreover, if I go the piezo route, I am tending to go towards
the
> > selenium hues, but I am worried just how much of a magenta cast do they
> > produce.
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300x250_youh1.gif>
> >
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=231049.2208958.3660596.1829184/D=egroupweb/S=17050191
82:HM/A=1175219/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_youH1/g22lp?Tar
get=mm/g22lp.tmpl>
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> > this same page.
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header.
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> > various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

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>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "lawrencetrek" <ltitle@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 11:28 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] choice between 1280 with PiezoTone carts vs. Epson
2200 for b/w output


(snip)
>
> My aim is to primarily print b/w images, that could potentially be
exhibited or
> sold and can hold up to silver images.  Is the 2200 there yet ?  If not,
can
> others reassure me about positive experiences with the 1280 and the PT
> carts.  Moreover, if I go the piezo route, I am tending to go towards the
> selenium hues, but I am worried just how much of a magenta cast do they
> produce.

Lawrence,

The 2200 with an advertised print life of 45 to 75 years is not going to
hold up to B&W silver prints which are perceived (probably incorrectly) to
have a life that is indefinite or several hundred years. Of course at 75
years your customers aren't likely to come back and complain about your 2200
prints, although with the advances in modern medicine...<G>

The amount of magenta and how you would like it is going to be a personal
choice. The inks go from cool high lights to a red-warm black giving a
magenta in the mid tones. This can be varied quite a bit with the paper you
print on. If you go the PiezoTone route you probably should try the Warm
Neutral and Cool Neutral (once it is out) before you commit to a CIS.

Martin Wesley

This is true. Richard Kerstel, who I had for a few courses at Maryland 
Institute of Art told me one time that he always makes several versions 
of his prints for exhibit. One for florescent lighting, one for indirect 
incandescent and one for direct incandescent and one for a "mixture." He 
makes the decision when he gets on site which work best. He also would 
carry some of his own lighting and use it if he could. With printers 
that's easier than with wet prints.

So what I hear is with MIS you have more control on the warmth using 
profiles with a fixed ink than you do with Piezo?

Truman

Martin Wesley wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] choice between 1280 with PiezoTone carts vs. 
> Epson
> 2200 for b/w output
>
>
> >
> > Florescent light is the worst possible choice of lighting to use to
> > evaluate a print of any kind. A selenium toned print is cool to cold in
> > tone which means it's toward the blue end of the spectrum. I prefer
> > this, but that is a personal preference.
>
> Truman,
>
> Unfortunately you will find fluorescent lighting in many galleries and in
> office setting. So if you have any interest in selling through those
> channels you need to have prints that still look good under that light,
> unpleasant as it is.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] choice between 1280 with PiezoTone carts vs. Epson
2200 for b/w output


> This is true. Richard Kerstel, who I had for a few courses at Maryland
> Institute of Art told me one time that he always makes several versions
> of his prints for exhibit. One for florescent lighting, one for indirect
> incandescent and one for direct incandescent and one for a "mixture." He
> makes the decision when he gets on site which work best. He also would
> carry some of his own lighting and use it if he could. With printers
> that's easier than with wet prints.

Truman,

These were silver prints? I have to say that sounds excessive and somewhat
futile. A good print should look good in a variety of lighting conditions
since you never know where it will ultimately be displayed once you have
sold it. As far as printing time goes, I am finding it takes about as long
to get a good digital prints as is does in the darkroom. Even reprints can
be just as time consuming as with silver as you change paper and ink lots.
>
> So what I hear is with MIS you have more control on the warmth using
> profiles with a fixed ink than you do with Piezo?

With the standard MIS-VM you have a cyan blue toner ink used with red-warm
grays so that you can go from a very cold blue print to a rather warm print.
The Sepia-VM has an orange-red toner ink so you can go from a sepia toned
print to a slightly warm neutral print. There are some examples of the Sepia
VM in the Files section.

Martin Wesley

>
> Martin Wesley wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 11:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] choice between 1280 with PiezoTone carts vs.
> > Epson
> > 2200 for b/w output
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Florescent light is the worst possible choice of lighting to use to
> > > evaluate a print of any kind. A selenium toned print is cool to cold
in
> > > tone which means it's toward the blue end of the spectrum. I prefer
> > > this, but that is a personal preference.
> >
> > Truman,
> >
> > Unfortunately you will find fluorescent lighting in many galleries and
in
> > office setting. So if you have any interest in selling through those
> > channels you need to have prints that still look good under that light,
> > unpleasant as it is.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

This was in the 70's - yes they were silver. Kerstel was very demanding 
on his prints - and on his students. He used every creative path at his 
disposal for to communicate his message - be it grain or tone of the 
prints. The grain (or lack of) in his prints and the tone on his prints 
were integral to his prints.

Prints - even silver - look different under different lighting. Poor 
lighting can dump the shadows or highlights. A neutral print under under 
a warm florescent light takes on an ugly olive green - slight as it 
might be it is still. there. Once a print is sold it's up to the new 
owner to determine how to best display it. It's out of the hands of the 
artist at that point. In an exibition he wanted his photographs to 
convey his message. Excessive, maybe. But aren't all true artist a bit 
escessive?

Truman



Martin Wesley wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] choice between 1280 with PiezoTone carts vs. 
> Epson
> 2200 for b/w output
>
>
> > This is true. Richard Kerstel, who I had for a few courses at Maryland
> > Institute of Art told me one time that he always makes several versions
> > of his prints for exhibit. One for florescent lighting, one for indirect
> > incandescent and one for direct incandescent and one for a "mixture." He
> > makes the decision when he gets on site which work best. He also would
> > carry some of his own lighting and use it if he could. With printers
> > that's easier than with wet prints.
>
> Truman,
>
> These were silver prints? I have to say that sounds excessive and somewhat
> futile. A good print should look good in a variety of lighting conditions
> since you never know where it will ultimately be displayed once you have
> sold it. As far as printing time goes, I am finding it takes about as long
> to get a good digital prints as is does in the darkroom. Even reprints can
> be just as time consuming as with silver as you change paper and ink lots.
> >
> > So what I hear is with MIS you have more control on the warmth using
> > profiles with a fixed ink than you do with Piezo?
>
> With the standard MIS-VM you have a cyan blue toner ink used with red-warm
> grays so that you can go from a very cold blue print to a rather warm 
> print.
> The Sepia-VM has an orange-red toner ink so you can go from a sepia toned
> print to a slightly warm neutral print. There are some examples of the 
> Sepia
> VM in the Files section.
>
> Martin Wesley
>
> >
> > Martin Wesley wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 11:36 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] choice between 1280 with PiezoTone carts vs.
> > > Epson
> > > 2200 for b/w output
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Florescent light is the worst possible choice of lighting to use to
> > > > evaluate a print of any kind. A selenium toned print is cool to cold
> in
> > > > tone which means it's toward the blue end of the spectrum. I prefer
> > > > this, but that is a personal preference.
> > >
> > > Truman,
> > >
> > > Unfortunately you will find fluorescent lighting in many galleries and
> in
> > > office setting. So if you have any interest in selling through those
> > > channels you need to have prints that still look good under that 
> light,
> > > unpleasant as it is.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
> to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service 
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




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