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user report - epson 2200

user report - epson 2200

2002-08-06 by ambrotype

I spent many hours yesterday evaluating bw printing with the epson 
2200 : the news is not good. All my tests were done with epson semi 
gloss and photoblack ink.

Basically this printer seems incapable of producing a true bw print, 
at least using the software and driver incuded with the printer. I 
tried all settings available in different combinations, including 
varying the amount of CMY ink via driver. I also tried the epson 
PK_semigloss ICM profile. In all cases you get a print with a colour 
cast, usually M. Some settings may even introduce a secondary cast in 
the shadows or highlights. Now some may want tinted prints and find 
them aesthetically acceptable, but based on my evaluation I would be 
very surprised if it is physically possible for this machine to print 
a perfect grayscale. It can however produce ok-looking monochrome 
prints, and by experimenting you may find a pleasing tint.

The only way I was able to produce what appeared to me as a true 
monochrome print was by turning off the colour in the driver, forcing 
the machine to use only two inks. The resulting print was not-bad, 
free of colour casts but quite warm in appearance, sort of sepia 
toned.

Conclusion : this aint a bw printer.

Re: user report - epson 2200

2002-08-06 by marktuckerdotcom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "ambrotype" 
<ambrotype@y...> wrote:
> The only way I was able to produce what appeared to me as a 
true 
> monochrome print was by turning off the colour in the driver, 
forcing 
> the machine to use only two inks.


Were you working on your own 2200, and had you custom 
profiled it, and had the Linearization process been completed?

If not, I'd say those are premature words. It's widely known that 
producing a neutral gray is the toughest thing for color inks to do. 
Therefore, they must be first linearized, and then a custom ICC 
profile completed before you could EVER expect them to produce 
a grey stepwedge that was neutral from one end to the other.

I've done it on my 9600, and it uses the same Ultrachromes, so I 
know for sure that it's possible. Out of the box, the 2200 is 
probably a pretty nice printer, especially for the money, but to get 
that last five or ten percent out of it, you've just gotta profile it.

Try that, and then report back with more accurate information.

Mark Tucker
http://marktucker.com/

Re: user report - epson 2200

2002-08-06 by johnvphoto

"ambrotype" wrote:

> The only way I was able to produce what appeared to me as a true 
> monochrome print was by turning off the colour in the driver, forcing 
> the machine to use only two inks.

I'm not totally sure but I think when you turn off color in the driver it only uses 
one black - not the lighter one.

John V.

Re: user report - epson 2200

2002-08-06 by lawrencetrek

Mark, first let me say I love your work and your website.  I am anxious to see 
new pictures beyond cuba.

As an amateur B/W enthusiast, I apologize for my ignorance.  But, I was 
interested in your comments about profiling and linearizing the printer.  With 
out the expensive hardware/software to do this (+expertise), I am not sure 
how easy it would be to have someone do the profiling for you (especially 
when you live in an isolated, small city like I do).  I also wonder whether you 
would have to do a new profile with each ink change, or are the pigments 
consistent enough lot to lot.  (That could get expensive for someone doing this 
as a hobby).  And with your custom profile, I am curious how would you 
compare the output of the b/w 9600 on archival art papers to that of 
piezography. (subjectively and objectively) 

I have been holding off getting into Piezography when I read about all of the 
problems that some users have experienced over the last few years.  I am 
hopeful that the new PiezoTones may improve things, but I am troubled by 
some continued problems noted on this forum and on the piezo3000 forum 
with the newer PT inks.  So, I was hopeful that the 2200 could produce decent 
b/w output.  Yet, I used one in the store the other day to print a file, and was 
certain that it had a purplish color cast under fluoro lights, but looked more 
neutral or even a bit warm in daylight, and with halogen lights.  I didn't try 
printing a sample grayscale.  The dot pattern with a loupe was not too bad to 
me, but I don't have any piezotone samples yet to compare with.  If you were 
not doing this for a living, but wanted to get a printer setup to produce serious 
b/w digital output at home, which way would you go ?  PiezoTones, other 3rd 
party  quad/hextone inks, or ultrachromes.  I am not sure I am really want the 
hassle of microbanding, windex, fantastik, etc etc...   Your comments make me 
think you think this printer may have some potential.

Thanks for your input.

P.S.  I am also anxious to see you post some your vintage-look prints that you 
were going to produce (Sally Mann redux)

Re: user report - epson 2200

2002-08-06 by marktuckerdotcom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "lawrencetrek" 
<ltitle@i...> wrote:
 With 
> out the expensive hardware/software to do this (+expertise), I 
am not sure 
> how easy it would be to have someone do the profiling for you 
(especially 
> when you live in an isolated, small city like I do).

There are several places that will produce an ICC profile for your 
particular printer. And yes, every inkset and paper combination 
needs its own profile. (Although Museo and ESFA have been 
known to be interchangeable to a degree). Here are a couple of 
places that I know of. I post one of these at great personal risk.

http://www.chromatics.com (Ask for Scott Ward) $125

http://digitaldog.net/ (Andrew Rodney) $150?

http://www.profilecity.com $?

Each of these places will give you an initial file to print; made up 
mostly of grey chips. This is the linearization part. Based on the 
readings from that, the software generates several more pages 
of color chips. This is done through the mail or Fedex. At 
Chromatics, where I get them now, I get seven pages of color 
chips to print, after linearization.

It's important to print this untagged file with Epson driver set to 
No Color Adjustment, so that the driver isn't messing with the 
color; you want the driver to be "dumb". Also, record your Media 
Type, as you will use that same Media type later. If you really 
want to get picky, there is a file around called the Culbertson 
Ramp, named after Dan Culbertson. You can print this image 
using various mediatype settings to show you how much ink 
each setting lays down; after you pick one, then stick with that 
one.




  I also wonder whether you 
> would have to do a new profile with each ink change, or are the 
pigments 
> consistent enough lot to lot.  (That could get expensive for 
someone doing this 
> as a hobby). 

See above. 


>And with your custom profile, I am curious how would you 
> compare the output of the b/w 9600 on archival art papers to 
that of 
> piezography. (subjectively and objectively) 

I used the piezo system briefly years ago with my old 3000. It 
was nice, but to me, very limiting, to be constrained into ONLY 
using b/W ink. My personal taste is to be able to tone, and 
sometimes radically. I also tried the MIS Variables, but the whole 
curve thing seemed nutty to me, but others seem to like it. Was 
that diplomatic?



 >Yet, I used one in the store the other day to print a file, and was 
> certain that it had a purplish color cast under fluoro lights, but 
looked more 
> neutral or even a bit warm in daylight, and with halogen lights.

I don't think I'd trust anything that I briefly tested in a store.
Like i 
told that other guy; it's just not giving it a fair chance at all.
There's 
so much more that they can do, but only after profiling. I wish I 
could show you the test prints from my 9600; one untagged and 
unprofiled, and the other profiled. It was radical difference.



  I didn't try 
> printing a sample grayscale.  The dot pattern with a loupe was 
not too bad to 
> me, but I don't have any piezotone samples yet to compare 
with.  If you were 
> not doing this for a living, but wanted to get a printer setup to 
produce serious 
> b/w digital output at home, which way would you go ?  


Hard to say. I don't know you. I don't know how demanding you 
are. But I'd bet that the 2200 is a fine printer, if given a fair 
chance. And even with B/W. The only potential drag about the 
2200 seems to be the cost of the ink, and until some third party 
cracks the code, the only game in town are the Ultras. Not that 
the quality is bad, but with those tiny inkwells, it's pretty pricey 
stuff, compared to, say, the 220ml carts in the 9600. That's part 
of the reason I got the bigger printer.



Good luck.

Re: user report - epson 2200

2002-08-06 by ambrotype

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "johnvphoto" <johnnyv@c...> 
wrote:
> "ambrotype" wrote:
> 
> > The only way I was able to produce what appeared to me as a true 
> > monochrome print was by turning off the colour in the driver, 
forcing 
> > the machine to use only two inks.
> 
> I'm not totally sure but I think when you turn off color in the 
driver it only uses 
> one black - not the lighter one.
> 
> John V.

Hi John,

When "black" is chosen in the driver it must be using more than one 
ink because the output isnt black ! (its kind of sepia).

--A.

Re: user report - epson 2200

2002-08-06 by ambrotype

Hi Mark,

Yes well I was just trying to report an "out of the box" experience. 
I understand that using custom profiles may improve b/w output, but 
this could be said about any sort of output from any sort of printer. 
Its just that Epson is trying to market the monochrome capabilities 
of this printer and yet does not back this up with satisfactory 
software (i got a Canada shipped version). The manual doesnt even 
mention the Pk_semigloss.icm driver ! Considering the premium cost of 
this printer, why should users be expected to buy additional 
profiles, especially as this printer is aimed at advanced amateurs as 
much as anybody else ?
However I am gratified to hear that it is physically possible to 
produce true b/w prints in your experience with a 9600, however I 
hope someone else will confirm this with a 2200 as although the inks 
are the same I presume there is a physical difference in their print 
engine, the 9600 is considered a "pro" printer, correct?

--A.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "marktuckerdotcom" 
<mtucker508@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "ambrotype" 
> <ambrotype@y...> wrote:
> > The only way I was able to produce what appeared to me as a 
> true 
> > monochrome print was by turning off the colour in the driver, 
> forcing 
> > the machine to use only two inks.
> 
> 
> Were you working on your own 2200, and had you custom 
> profiled it, and had the Linearization process been completed?
> 
> If not, I'd say those are premature words. It's widely known that 
> producing a neutral gray is the toughest thing for color inks to 
do. 
> Therefore, they must be first linearized, and then a custom ICC 
> profile completed before you could EVER expect them to produce 
> a grey stepwedge that was neutral from one end to the other.
> 
> I've done it on my 9600, and it uses the same Ultrachromes, so I 
> know for sure that it's possible. Out of the box, the 2200 is 
> probably a pretty nice printer, especially for the money, but to 
get 
> that last five or ten percent out of it, you've just gotta profile 
it.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Try that, and then report back with more accurate information.
> 
> Mark Tucker
> http://marktucker.com/

Re: user report - epson 2200

2002-08-06 by marktuckerdotcom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "ambrotype" 
Considering the premium cost of 
> this printer, why should users be expected to buy additional 
> profiles, especially as this printer is aimed at advanced 
amateurs as 
> much as anybody else ?


Whatever.

I would avoid the 2200 at all costs, then. You seem convinced.

Mark Tucker
http://marktucker.com

Re: user report - epson 2200

2002-08-06 by ambrotype

Not at all, I think the the Epson 2200 excels at its primary 
mission : printing fantastic looking colour prints. 

--A.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> Whatever.
> 
> I would avoid the 2200 at all costs, then. You seem convinced.
> 
> Mark Tucker
> http://marktucker.com

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