Digital BW, The Print

My own sources point to two basic reasons EPSON USA chose not to include 
the software:

1)    Its complexity would have created numerous tech support calls from 
mainstream consumers..

2)    Given how sensitive the American niche market for fine prints is 
to metamerism, AND how ell developed that market is becoming.  It was 
felt that to include software that ostensibly PROVED metamerism (in the 
sense of needing to tweak for varied lighting conditions)  was seen as a 
large minus..

Keith

I wonder if they even considered making the software available for
purchase? 
 
Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.
 
215 751-8320
 <mailto:sshire@...> sshire@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Editor P.O.V. Image Service [mailto:editor@...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:36 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW
 
My own sources point to two basic reasons EPSON USA chose not to include

the software:

1)    Its complexity would have created numerous tech support calls from

mainstream consumers..

2)    Given how sensitive the American niche market for fine prints is 
to metamerism, AND how ell developed that market is becoming.  It was 
felt that to include software that ostensibly PROVED metamerism (in the 
sense of needing to tweak for varied lighting conditions)  was seen as a

large minus..

Keith






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Everyone;

With all this clamoring and sour notes about why Epson decided not to
include this software please keep in mind that this software is an
unknown quantity. It may be really quite useless or just novelty for the
serious user. Why not just take a deep breath and wait until the
printers are in major circulation with lots or reports and then decide
if you want to drive Epson crazy with demands for the Gray Balancer.


Just a thought ....


-Jeff

Epson brought together a "Blue Ribbon Panel" to discuss marketing.  One of
the members, Andrew Rodney, told Epson (and the world) that the Gray
Balancer was "software from Hell".  Funny thing is, Rodney is cofounder of
Digital Dog, who make profiles for money.  (Can you say, conflict of
interest?)  Subsequently, Epson decided to leave out the Gray Balancer.

I'm sure that there are other factors involved, but that can't have helped.

Glenn Thureson



----- Original Message -----
From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW


> My own sources point to two basic reasons EPSON USA chose not to include
> the software:
>
> 1)    Its complexity would have created numerous tech support calls from
> mainstream consumers..
>
> 2)    Given how sensitive the American niche market for fine prints is
> to metamerism, AND how ell developed that market is becoming.  It was
> felt that to include software that ostensibly PROVED metamerism (in the
> sense of needing to tweak for varied lighting conditions)  was seen as a
> large minus..
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Jeff Magidson wrote:

>With all this clamoring and sour notes about why Epson decided not to
>include this software please keep in mind that this software is an
>unknown quantity. It may be really quite useless or just novelty for the
>serious user. Why not just take a deep breath and wait until the
>printers are in major circulation with lots or reports and then decide
>if you want to drive Epson crazy with demands for the Gray Balancer.
>
>
>  
>
Let's see.. How much extra could it cost them to include the 
software...?  $5 per unit max I would guess..

Given that I'd say they should have included the software and let people 
not use it if it sucked... ;-)

I mean, how many people actually use the Epson PhotoPrint software 
instead of  Elements, PhotoShop, etc?

Better to include it and let the market decide..

That's why I think my informants are correct as to the reasoning that 
sold EPSON..

As for the interests of those making and selling profiles, EPSON could 
probably not give a darn, but, it would almost certainly influence the 
viewpoint of those individuals selling the profiles if they were 
consulted...

It's why I keep ads off my EPSON site 100%, and won't ever start a 
inkjet supply biz..  I'd rather be free of even the perception of any 
potential conflict of interest..

Keith



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeff Magidson wrote:

>Hey Everyone;
>
>With all this clamoring and sour notes about why Epson decided not to
>include this software please keep in mind that this software is an
>unknown quantity. It may be really quite useless or just novelty for the
>serious user. Why not just take a deep breath and wait until the
>printers are in major circulation with lots or reports and then decide
>if you want to drive Epson crazy with demands for the Gray Balancer.
>

AND how WILL waiting help anyone judge a piece of software they DON'T 
have...

I'm sorry to say, that your logic eludes me..

Keith
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Glenn Thureson wrote:

>Epson brought together a "Blue Ribbon Panel" to discuss marketing. 
>


All I will say on this...

Prior to moving to photo journalism and art, I worked as a political 
consultant and staffer...

In "our" books:

Blue Ribbon Panel = "cover for justifying the steps some bureaucratic 
entity or key decisionmaker had already decided upon"

see subheadings:
Challenger Disaster
Warren Commission
War against Drugs
Gore commission on air travel safety and security
National Health Care Insurance


Nuff said..

Keith

At 03:16 PM 8/1/2002, Keith wrote:
>Blue Ribbon Panel = "cover for justifying the steps some bureaucratic
>entity or key decisionmaker had already decided upon"
>
>see subheadings:
>Challenger Disaster
>Warren Commission
>War against Drugs
>Gore commission on air travel safety and security
>National Health Care Insurance

As I recall, the presence of Richard Feynmann on the Challenger Panel 
resulted in a finding that was actually useful, albeit one that some 
engineers at Thiokol had already warned about. The warnings were 
disregarded. Anyway, as many may recall, while others were speaking (or 
pontificating), Feynmann was soaking a piece of o-ring material in ice 
water. When it was his to turn to speak, he pulled the material out of the 
ice and snapped it in pieces. (See "An Outsider's Inside View of the 
Challenger Inquiry" by Richard P. Feynmann, Physics Today, February 1988, 
pp. 26-37.) Basically, he forced the commission to come to a real, as 
opposed to political, conclusion.


Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

Andrew was only one member of the group. Jeff Schewe was also on the
panel and he doesn't make profiles.
Following your logic, was there anyone on the panel who makes cd label
printers?
 
Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.
 
215 751-8320
 <mailto:sshire@...> sshire@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Thureson [mailto:glennthureson@...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW
 
Epson brought together a "Blue Ribbon Panel" to discuss marketing.  One
of
the members, Andrew Rodney, told Epson (and the world) that the Gray
Balancer was "software from Hell".  Funny thing is, Rodney is cofounder
of
Digital Dog, who make profiles for money.  (Can you say, conflict of
interest?)  Subsequently, Epson decided to leave out the Gray Balancer.

I'm sure that there are other factors involved, but that can't have
helped.

Glenn Thureson



----- Original Message -----
From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW


> My own sources point to two basic reasons EPSON USA chose not to
include
> the software:
>
> 1)    Its complexity would have created numerous tech support calls
from
> mainstream consumers..
>
> 2)    Given how sensitive the American niche market for fine prints is
> to metamerism, AND how ell developed that market is becoming.  It was
> felt that to include software that ostensibly PROVED metamerism (in
the
> sense of needing to tweak for varied lighting conditions)  was seen as
a
> large minus..
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With all due respect Professor, I think it's your logic that is
inverted. Epson's reasons for not including the CD printing on the 2200
are irrelevant to the issue of not including the gray balancer. Having
those in the business of making custom profiles judge software that
might reduce the need for those profiles, at least for a substantial
subset of users, is a conflict of interest. If Ford decided not to
market a fuel-cell powered vehicle after feedback from Exxon, Chevron,
and Amoco, I'd be suspicious....wouldn't you?
 
Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: Shire,Stanley [mailto:sshire@...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:52 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW


Andrew was only one member of the group. Jeff Schewe was also on the
panel and he doesn't make profiles.
Following your logic, was there anyone on the panel who makes cd label
printers?

Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.

215 751-8320
<mailto:sshire@...> sshire@...
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Thureson [mailto:glennthureson@...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW

Epson brought together a "Blue Ribbon Panel" to discuss marketing.  One
of
the members, Andrew Rodney, told Epson (and the world) that the Gray
Balancer was "software from Hell".  Funny thing is, Rodney is cofounder
of
Digital Dog, who make profiles for money.  (Can you say, conflict of
interest?)  Subsequently, Epson decided to leave out the Gray Balancer.

I'm sure that there are other factors involved, but that can't have
helped.

Glenn Thureson



----- Original Message -----
From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW


> My own sources point to two basic reasons EPSON USA chose not to
include
> the software:
>
> 1)    Its complexity would have created numerous tech support calls
from
> mainstream consumers..
>
> 2)    Given how sensitive the American niche market for fine prints is
> to metamerism, AND how ell developed that market is becoming.  It was
> felt that to include software that ostensibly PROVED metamerism (in
the
> sense of needing to tweak for varied lighting conditions)  was seen as
a
> large minus..
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think we're talking about marketing decisions - both with the
exclusion of the cd printer and with the gray balancer.
Are more people in Europe printing CDs than here?
My guess is that people who would pay $100 for a custom profile are
going to do so, gray balancer or not. The majority of folks who will pay
$600 for a printer (and most of us have spent much more than that when
you factor in a CIS, inks, paper, etc. (as opposed to <$100) are very
critical about their prints. Most of us on this list fall into that
group. I'm not suggesting that I would be happier with the profile
generated with the gray balancer than one done with my Spectroscan or
EyeOne. I'm very lucky to have all of this exceptional equipment for my
students' use. Most people on this list don't have that luxury. But I
would certainly love to have an opportunity to work with the gray
balancer and judge it for myself. Knowing Andrew, I would be VERY
surprised if the motivation for his suggestion to Epson was based on a
perceived income reduction. Morally and ethically he is way beyond that.
 
Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.
 
215 751-8320
 <mailto:sshire@...> sshire@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Lloyd O'Daniel [mailto:lodaniel@...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:31 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW
 
With all due respect Professor, I think it's your logic that is
inverted. Epson's reasons for not including the CD printing on the 2200
are irrelevant to the issue of not including the gray balancer. Having
those in the business of making custom profiles judge software that
might reduce the need for those profiles, at least for a substantial
subset of users, is a conflict of interest. If Ford decided not to
market a fuel-cell powered vehicle after feedback from Exxon, Chevron,
and Amoco, I'd be suspicious....wouldn't you?

Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: Shire,Stanley [mailto:sshire@...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:52 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW


Andrew was only one member of the group. Jeff Schewe was also on the
panel and he doesn't make profiles.
Following your logic, was there anyone on the panel who makes cd label
printers?

Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.

215 751-8320
<mailto:sshire@...> sshire@...
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Thureson [mailto:glennthureson@...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW

Epson brought together a "Blue Ribbon Panel" to discuss marketing.  One
of
the members, Andrew Rodney, told Epson (and the world) that the Gray
Balancer was "software from Hell".  Funny thing is, Rodney is cofounder
of
Digital Dog, who make profiles for money.  (Can you say, conflict of
interest?)  Subsequently, Epson decided to leave out the Gray Balancer.

I'm sure that there are other factors involved, but that can't have
helped.

Glenn Thureson



----- Original Message -----
From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW


> My own sources point to two basic reasons EPSON USA chose not to
include
> the software:
>
> 1)    Its complexity would have created numerous tech support calls
from
> mainstream consumers..
>
> 2)    Given how sensitive the American niche market for fine prints is
> to metamerism, AND how ell developed that market is becoming.  It was
> felt that to include software that ostensibly PROVED metamerism (in
the
> sense of needing to tweak for varied lighting conditions)  was seen as
a
> large minus..
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>





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Stan McQueen wrote:

>At 03:16 PM 8/1/2002, Keith wrote:
>  
>
>>Blue Ribbon Panel = "cover for justifying the steps some bureaucratic
>>entity or key decisionmaker had already decided upon"
>>
>>see subheadings:
>>Challenger Disaster
>>Warren Commission
>>War against Drugs
>>Gore commission on air travel safety and security
>>National Health Care Insurance
>>    
>>
>
>As I recall, the presence of Richard Feynmann on the Challenger Panel 
>resulted in a finding that was actually useful, albeit one that some 
>engineers at Thiokol had already warned about. The warnings were 
>disregarded. Anyway, as many may recall, while others were speaking (or 
>pontificating), Feynmann was soaking a piece of o-ring material in ice 
>water. When it was his to turn to speak, he pulled the material out of the 
>ice and snapped it in pieces. (See "An Outsider's Inside View of the 
>Challenger Inquiry" by Richard P. Feynmann, Physics Today, February 1988, 
>pp. 26-37.) Basically, he forced the commission to come to a real, as 
>opposed to political, conclusion.
>
>  
>
Agreed 100%!

I added Challenger knowing that story quite well..

The story you so nicely told for me was  EXACTLY why Challenegr was 
included on the list.. Feynmann's guts and moxie on  that panel serve as 
a sign of how far one has to go to get a blue ribbon panel to act like a 
truly independent advisory group instead of a sycophantic organization 
of rubber stamping toadies..

A blue ribbon panel can work, but you have to have someone brave, 
independent, and knowledgeable acknowledged as a group/panel leader 
(unofficially - int need not be the chairperson) to make sure it does 
more than  trumpet the current party line..

I don't think anyone with a vested interest in a political outcome to 
the inquiry was likely to do what Feynmann did..  Similarly, when people 
on any panel have a vested interest in certain outcomes (maintiaining a 
market for profiles, or avoiding responsibility for a bad engineering 
choice) don't expect them to leave those vested interests at the door to 
the hearing room..

Does anyone know if there was a single expert on EPSON's panel who had 
publicly criticized earlier EPSON marketing choices?  If not, don't 
expect true objectivity..  Instead, expect groupthink..

Don't misinterpret me either..  I'm saying you need honest critics, not 
that the panel needs to be even mostly critics.. Market/focus segments 
with a vested interest in the outcome need to be included as well, to 
make sure the spectrum of opinions and interests are represented.. 
 Usually, the panel is carefully selected to look objective while wtill 
ensuring that certain results/findings are certain.

What happens when there is NO honest information broker?  Just what we 
saw economically when you allow banks that are investing in a 
corporation to sell stock in that corporation and one-in-the-same-time 
provide "objective analysts" of stocks to news outlets.  There were 
reasons for erecting a Chinee wall between brokers and bankers or 
between auditors and consultants...  Similarly, if you want true 
objectivity on a panel, you have to include some of the critics.. 
Nothing is more basicto the operation of a good independent panel. 
That's why fields as varied and interrelated as  marketing, sociologr, 
polticial science, finance, or and psychology cite this honest brokering 
of information and a willingness in some panel members to differ from 
the accepted view as essential elements to effective group dynamics and 
forum operation.. 

Keith
 
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW


> I laughed also. If nothing else, Andrew is opinionated and passionate
> about color management.

One could ask him for a better explanation of his advice on the Colorsync
list.
It would interest me but I'm not a 2002 owner.

It wouldn't surprise me if he writes that too many layers of color
management on top of one another isn't a good idea.

Ernst

Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote:

>
Feynmann was only doing what he always did so well - teach with a flare 
for the dramatic. The shattering of the frozen O ring was the type of 
thing he did so well to drive home physics to his students. That flare 
is what made him not only the greatest modern day physicists but also 
the greatest teacher of physics.  

Truman

>
> Agreed 100%!
>
> I added Challenger knowing that story quite well..
>
> The story you so nicely told for me was  EXACTLY why Challenegr was
> included on the list.. Feynmann's guts and moxie on  that panel serve as
> a sign of how far one has to go to get a blue ribbon panel to act like a
> truly independent advisory group instead of a sycophantic organization
> of rubber stamping toadies..
>
> A blue ribbon panel can work, but you have to have someone brave,
> independent, and knowledgeable acknowledged as a group/panel leader
> (unofficially - int need not be the chairperson) to make sure it does
> more than  trumpet the current party line..
>
> I don't think anyone with a vested interest in a political outcome to
> the inquiry was likely to do what Feynmann did..  Similarly, when people
> on any panel have a vested interest in certain outcomes (maintiaining a
> market for profiles, or avoiding responsibility for a bad engineering
> choice) don't expect them to leave those vested interests at the door to
> the hearing room..
>
> Does anyone know if there was a single expert on EPSON's panel who had
> publicly criticized earlier EPSON marketing choices?  If not, don't
> expect true objectivity..  Instead, expect groupthink..
>
> Don't misinterpret me either..  I'm saying you need honest critics, not
> that the panel needs to be even mostly critics.. Market/focus segments
> with a vested interest in the outcome need to be included as well, to
> make sure the spectrum of opinions and interests are represented..
> Usually, the panel is carefully selected to look objective while wtill
> ensuring that certain results/findings are certain.
>
> What happens when there is NO honest information broker?  Just what we
> saw economically when you allow banks that are investing in a
> corporation to sell stock in that corporation and one-in-the-same-time
> provide "objective analysts" of stocks to news outlets.  There were
> reasons for erecting a Chinee wall between brokers and bankers or
> between auditors and consultants...  Similarly, if you want true
> objectivity on a panel, you have to include some of the critics..
> Nothing is more basicto the operation of a good independent panel.
> That's why fields as varied and interrelated as  marketing, sociologr,
> polticial science, finance, or and psychology cite this honest brokering
> of information and a willingness in some panel members to differ from
> the accepted view as essential elements to effective group dynamics and
> forum operation..
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh my, I'm still laughing after reading
http://www.robgalbraith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=00100
5 .  You may know Andrew, but go on and admit it, the man is elitist as
hell.  "Giving 98% of the population Gray Balancer is like asking a small
child to play on the freeway with a razor blade. It serves no purpose unless
you like the sight of blood!"

Glenn Thureson

> Knowing Andrew, I would be VERY surprised if the motivation for his
> suggestion to Epson was based on a
> perceived income reduction. Morally and ethically he is way beyond that.
>
> Stan Shire
> Associate Professor/Department Chair
> Photographic Imaging
> Community College of Philadelphia
> Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.

I laughed also. If nothing else, Andrew is opinionated and passionate
about color management.
 
Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.
 
215 751-8320
 <mailto:sshire@...> sshire@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Thureson [mailto:glennthureson@...] 
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:33 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW
 
Oh my, I'm still laughing after reading
http://www.robgalbraith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic
<http://www.robgalbraith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=
00100> &f=3&t=00100
5 .  You may know Andrew, but go on and admit it, the man is elitist as
hell.  "Giving 98% of the population Gray Balancer is like asking a
small
child to play on the freeway with a razor blade. It serves no purpose
unless
you like the sight of blood!"

Glenn Thureson

> Knowing Andrew, I would be VERY surprised if the motivation for his
> suggestion to Epson was based on a
> perceived income reduction. Morally and ethically he is way beyond
that.
>
> Stan Shire
> Associate Professor/Department Chair
> Photographic Imaging
> Community College of Philadelphia
> Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just read through the thread (with pretty good explanations) on Rob
Galbraith's list. Andrew makes some good points (no soft proofing with
GB for one) but other users (from the UK) who are using GB make good
points in favor of the software and do not find it difficult to use.
 
Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.
 
215 751-8320
 <mailto:sshire@...> sshire@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Ernst Dinkla [mailto:e.dinkla@...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:49 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW


> I laughed also. If nothing else, Andrew is opinionated and passionate
> about color management.

One could ask him for a better explanation of his advice on the
Colorsync
list.
It would interest me but I'm not a 2002 owner.

It wouldn't surprise me if he writes that too many layers of color
management on top of one another isn't a good idea.

Ernst






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same page.

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- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 8/1/02 4:38:26 PM, jeffm@... writes:

>With all this clamoring and sour notes about why Epson decided not to
>include this software please keep in mind that this software is an
>unknown quantity. It may be really quite useless or just novelty for the
>serious user. Why not just take a deep breath and wait until the
>printers are in major circulation with lots or reports and then decide
>if you want to drive Epson crazy with demands for the Gray Balancer.


Having worked with developing gray balance algorithms myself, I can tell you 
that they do work (can work would be a better general phrase), but lets 
emphasise the fact that gray balancing does nothing that good profile 
creation or editing software can't manage, and that this won't eliminate 
metamerism, only allow you to select what lighting you would like your prints 
to balance under; so this is not an irretrievable loss, simply an 
inconvenience.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

In a message dated 8/1/02 4:40:12 PM, glennthureson@... writes:

>Epson brought together a "Blue Ribbon Panel" to discuss marketing.  One
>of
>the members, Andrew Rodney, told Epson (and the world) that the Gray
>Balancer was "software from Hell".  Funny thing is, Rodney is cofounder
>of
>Digital Dog, who make profiles for money.  (Can you say, conflict of
>interest?)  Subsequently, Epson decided to leave out the Gray Balancer.

Trust me that Andrew, like myself, is not making his living from building 
custom profiles; its a loss leader service at the individual consultant 
level. I suspect Andrew makes better rates at virtually everything else he 
does. Besides; the need for custom profile creation and editing is not going 
to disappear any time soon, there are many other reasons for its existence.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

At 05:14 PM 8/1/2002, Keith wrote:
>Stan McQueen wrote:
>
> >>Blue Ribbon Panel = "cover for justifying the steps some bureaucratic
> >>entity or key decisionmaker had already decided upon"
> >>
> >>see subheadings:
> >>Challenger Disaster
> >>Warren Commission
> >>War against Drugs
> >>Gore commission on air travel safety and security
> >>National Health Care Insurance
> >>
> >>
> >
> >As I recall, the presence of Richard Feynmann on the Challenger Panel
> >resulted in a finding that was actually useful, albeit one that some
> >engineers at Thiokol had already warned about. The warnings were
> >disregarded. Anyway, as many may recall, while others were speaking (or
> >pontificating), Feynmann was soaking a piece of o-ring material in ice
> >water. When it was his to turn to speak, he pulled the material out of the
> >ice and snapped it in pieces. (See "An Outsider's Inside View of the
> >Challenger Inquiry" by Richard P. Feynmann, Physics Today, February 1988,
> >pp. 26-37.) Basically, he forced the commission to come to a real, as
> >opposed to political, conclusion.
> >
> >
> >
>Agreed 100%!
>
>I added Challenger knowing that story quite well..
>
>The story you so nicely told for me was  EXACTLY why Challenegr was
>included on the list.. Feynmann's guts and moxie on  that panel serve as
>a sign of how far one has to go to get a blue ribbon panel to act like a
>truly independent advisory group instead of a sycophantic organization
>of rubber stamping toadies..
>
>A blue ribbon panel can work, but you have to have someone brave,
>independent, and knowledgeable acknowledged as a group/panel leader
>(unofficially - int need not be the chairperson) to make sure it does
>more than  trumpet the current party line..

That's why I told the story. The Challenger panel was an exception to the 
rule stated above. It might have been expected to come to a predetermined 
conclusion but, due to the presence of Feynmann, actually did not, instead 
coming to an actually useful conclusion. Thus it really doesn't deserve to 
be listed with the other panels. I figured you knew the real story, but 
there might be others on the list who don't know it and would dismiss that 
panel as being just like the rest.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

I've thought more about it since I wrote that inflammatory bit.  I think
what bothers me is that Andrew has worked years in inkjet and PS, has access
to powerful (and easy-to-use) profiling aids, and simply doesn't need more
help.  Speaking as a newcomer to inkjet and Photoshop, I found the various
positive write-ups on the Gray Balancer to be reassuring and would feel
better to have a (free) structured tool at hand.  I was annoyed that he was
unable or unwilling to see this issue from others' point of view.  He may be
a wonderful photographer/printer for all I know, but he should not be
speaking for all the potential buyers of the 2200.

Glenn Thureson


> Trust me that Andrew, like myself, is not making his living from building
> custom profiles; its a loss leader service at the individual consultant
> level. I suspect Andrew makes better rates at virtually everything else he
> does. Besides; the need for custom profile creation and editing is not
going
> to disappear any time soon, there are many other reasons for its
existence.

>
> C. David Tobie
> Design Cooperative
> CDTobie@...

>> Epson brought together a "Blue Ribbon Panel" to discuss marketing.One
>> the members, Andrew Rodney, told Epson (and the world) that the Gray
>> Balancer was "software from Hell". Funny thing is, Rodney is cofounder of
>> Digital Dog, who make profiles for money. (Can you say, conflict of
>> interest?) Subsequently, Epson decided to leave out the Gray Balancer.

I'm not only the co-founder, I'm the only founder. Bottle washer, cook, 
accountant, receptionist and so forth. 

Naturally someone that isn't very educated about the events of the meeting 
would jump to the erroneous (and some would say harsh) conclusion that I 
didn't recommend the Gray Balancer because I make custom profiles 
occasionally for people that don't have the time, money or inclination to build 
their own. Apparently this fellow thinks ANYONE can make a living building 
profiles. What planet does he live on? Whatever. 

The truth is that profiles have nothing to do with my nor anyone else's 
recommendation to can the Gray Balancer. While a good custom profile will 
produce neutrals on an Epson 2200 that are the best of any Epson printer I've 
ever seen, the reality is that a Photoshop novice can produce far more neutral 
prints using a simple adjustment layer in Photoshop (cost nothing) than 
spending endless time fooling around with the Gray Balancer and wasting 
god knows how much paper and ink. Even a fool like the above poster might 
be able to do this in a fraction of the time it takes to read the PDF on Gray 
Balancer. I'm not sure, this fellow might move his lips when he reads <g>. 

If the dozen or so people who where asked to come to California from all over 
the country to discuss the Gray Balancer (among other topics) had a split 
opinion about the Gray Balancer, we might have something to discuss. 
EVERY expert (who by the way makes a living being an imaging expert in 
some form) agreed that the Gray Balancer should NOT be bundled with the 
product. There wasn't even a debate! 

It's fun to see some amateurs sitting on the side lines making a big deal about 
not having a utility that for the vast majority of users is just  a big "Hurt me" 
button! It kind of reminds me of the early days of imaging when users bitched 
and moaned that a product had a PDF instead of a manual. You'd think the 
companies doing this were drowning puppies instead of saving the land fill 
with paper (and admittedly saving some costs of the product). 

My advice to the Product manager was at first to post Gray Balancer to a web 
site for download with the clear message there would be NO tech support for 
the product. But now I think that Epson should just charge a fee for this awful 
piece of software so that those that are complaining can put their money 
where their mouth is and start spreading the word that Gray Balancer isn't 
worth paying a penny for. Maybe then they will get on with their life's and 
make some nice prints!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <
editor@p...> wrote:

> Does anyone know if there was a single expert on EPSON's panel who had 
> publicly criticized earlier EPSON marketing choices?  If not, don't 
> expect true objectivity..  Instead, expect groupthink..

Yup, most of us in one form or another. 

NONE of us were paid to be in California to advise. 

Most if not all of us have publically discussed our dislike for aspects of the 
Epson print driver and the fact that a $10K printer uses the SAME driver as a 
$99 printer.

Most of us publically hated the 2000P. If you did your homework, you'd know 
I've spent a good deal of time advising most people to use another printer. 

No one was there to try to make Epson happy but rather to insure they 
produce the best possible products.

You all seem to forget how much TIME AND MONEY Epson spent working on 
the Gray Balancer unstead of working on the driver!!! You think this company 
has unlimited focus and R&D? While some group in Japan spent god knows 
how many man hours making Gray Balancer (just look at the work in the 200+ 
page PDF), they were NOT working on the driver. There were not spending 
time getting more OSX support. They were NOT getting linear ink controls for 
the user. They might not be working on a generation of printers even better 
than the 2200.

Andrew,

As I have written elsewhere, "I've thought more about it since I wrote that
inflammatory bit.  I think what bothers me is that Andrew has worked years
in inkjet and PS, has access to powerful (and easy-to-use) profiling aids,
and simply doesn't need more help.  Speaking as a newcomer to inkjet and
Photoshop, I found the various positive write-ups on the Gray Balancer to be
reassuring and would feel better to have a (free) structured tool at hand.
I was annoyed that he was unable or unwilling to see this issue from others'
point of view.  He may be a wonderful photographer/printer for all I know,
but he should not be speaking for all the potential buyers of the 2200".
Sometimes my wife complains about certain commercials on TV.  I have to
remind her that she is not in the target demographic.  Neither are you.

The Fool


> Even a fool like the above poster might
> be able to do this in a fraction of the time it takes to read the PDF on
Gray
> Balancer. I'm not sure, this fellow might move his lips when he reads <g>.
>

thedigitaldog wrote:

>  
>
>NONE of us were paid to be in California to advise. 
>  
>
I NEVER even implied you were...

>Most if not all of us have publically discussed our dislike for aspects of the 
>Epson print driver and the fact that a $10K printer uses the SAME driver as a 
>$99 printer.
>  
>
and that relates to the 2200 (a prosumer product) how?  I can see it 
relating to the 7600/9600/10000/etc..  If  your point of "most" is 
accurate it would seem the group was heavily weighted to the large 
format (production printing) environment..

You are doing exactly what I said was likely, representing specific 
vested interests...  and if you go back through my posts you'll see that 
I said that was to be expected , but was not therefore axiomatically 
negative.  The vested interest NEED to be represented.. BUT, as much as 
is possible, they ALL need to be represented..  You have made clear your 
independence and objectivity... That does NOT mean you have NO vested 
interests at all.. The comment one or two individuals (and I was NOT 
among them) made about your company and profiles, is NOT the vested 
interest of which I speak..  Instead, I mean you come from a specific 
demographic and specific market segment, that is natural..  Every member 
of a panel does so..

>Most of us publically hated the 2000P. If you did your homework, you'd know 
>I've spent a good deal of time advising most people to use another printer. 
>  
>
I didn't say you didn't,  I asked if anyone DID... I assume you ARE able 
to read the English language and comprehend it..

Here's my quote as you YOURSELF posted it

"Does anyone know if there was a single expert on EPSON's panel who had 
publicly criticized earlier EPSON marketing choices? "

That's a "question"..  I assume we don't need to rehash 2nd grade English here..

To continue... "Selling," "designing," or "manufacturing" the 2000P is distinct from marketing...  A dog of a product is a dog no matter how you market it..

 

>No one was there to try to make Epson happy
>
Never implied people were...

Nor was I among those who said or implied you chose to argue against the 
software BECAUSE your company produces profiles..  I specifically made 
clear that the perception of a conflict of interest is just as bad as a 
real conflict of interest when marketing and selling to the public are key..

 You really need to read some studies of group dynamics... You may be an 
expert on profiles, etc.. but from your post you are WAAAY out of your 
depth on discussing group dynamics and how blue ribbon panels, "as an 
organic entity,"  operate.

> but rather to insure they 
>produce the best possible products.
>  
>
And eliminating an already developed piece of software from a shipping 
product accomplishes that HOW?

>You all seem to forget how much TIME AND MONEY Epson spent working on 
>the Gray Balancer unstead of working on the driver!!! 
>
Nope I haven't..

But see, it doesn't matter does it?  IS KEEPING IT OUT OF THE CURRENT 
SHIPPING PRODUCT SOMEHOW GOING TO GET THAT MONEY BACK?

I assume you aren't going to tell me that the EPSON decision-makers are 
so wholly irrational that you felt that by having EPSON USA NOT ship the 
Grey balancer that EPSON would in the next go round not "waste their 
time" on software  other than the driver?

OR did you argue that the money saved in tech support calls for a piece 
of "software from hell" could be used to build better drivers for 10K 
printers sold on the USA market.. ?  If you even suggested that, 
suggesting that the US pro-sumer market should indirectly support the 
development of drivers for the large format market... well.. I'll just 
say that buyers in the US will be justified at heaping stinking piles of 
scorn and derision on you for being overly centered on your own market 
niche.. NOTE: I am not accusing you of doing that... just postulating 
certain possible rationales..

>You think this company 
>has unlimited focus and R&D? While some group in Japan spent god knows 
>how many man hours making Gray Balancer (just look at the work in the 200+ 
>page PDF), they were NOT working on the driver.
>
Actually deciding NOT to ship the software given that a priori 
investment, makes the time put into the PDF and even into writing the 
software a COMPLETE loss..

So, again, I ask, by eliminating the grey balancer that gets you more 
R&D how?  It's already made... Wait, I know, you have a time machine and 
can go back and get EPSON to drop development of the grey balancer last 
year... Just tell them it won't be shipping in the US..

> There were not spending 
>time getting more OSX support. They were NOT getting linear ink controls for 
>the user. They might not be working on a generation of printers even better 
>than the 2200. 
>  
>
HUH?  You're becoming irrational...  If you think the 2200 will be their 
last prosumer entry I might suggest you need a shot of thorazine to stop 
whatever delusions you are having..

Just so that you DON'T get the wrong impression...

I NEVER suggested you pushed the elimination of the software because it 
would compete with custom profiles..  What I DID suggest was that it is 
impossible for individuals with vested interests to leave them at the 
conference room door -- the reality is those interests will define the 
range of your real world experiences..  Just as you said EPSON does not 
have unlimited R&D, no person has infinite experiences, nor can they 
represent an infinite number of conflicting goals..

PS:  I didn't attack you personally in my post.  All I did was explain 
the realities of group dynamics and blue ribbon" panels.  

BUT, Next time you quote from MY post and:

1.  SHOUT, at those of us critiquing, by using three exclamation points
2.  discourse as if those of us, critiquing marketing choices, are 
brainless or ignorant,

expect to get sandbagged again.

We can discuss this as gentlemen onlist, or you can cross swords with me 
offlist if you really want that.. I NEVER back away from a fight. But 
don't start subjecting the group to the personalization of this... 
No-one here yelled at or about you..  

If you are frustrated because people choose to critique what the panel 
said, you should have chosen not to participate..  Don't expect people 
to lay palms at your feet for your efforts -- good people CAN disagree.. 
 If you've been an artist at all, you should know that critique is a 
part of the deal..

Keith
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>NONE of us were paid to be in California to advise. 
> 
>
I NEVER even implied you were...

The point wasn't directly pointed at YOU! Some seem to think any decisions 
made on the part of the Epson advisers was motivated by finical gain. I point 
out that none of use were paid simply for all to know that the collective group 
(who would have probably cost $30K for one day of work) did so because be 
believe in Epson products and want to allow Epson to make rational 
decisions based on our collective expertise. 

Epson asked the dozen of so people to meet because of our expertise. We 
are not prefect by any stretch. Collectively, we are damn close to representing 
the best minds in the imaging world (or at least representative in the U.S.). 
There experts in the field of imaging, digital printing, photography etc. We 
were asked to evaluate the printer for PROFESSIONAL users since we are all 
professional users. The fact that we felt unanimously that the product was far 
too complex for non pros let alone pros, the product manager decided that GB 
wasn't a good fix for most 2200 users. 


>Most if not all of us have publically discussed our dislike for aspects of the 
>Epson print driver and the fact that a $10K printer uses the SAME driver as a 
>$99 printer.

>and that relates to the 2200 (a prosumer product) how? 

I just told you. We were there by request to look at the printer for prosumers 
and pros. Pro's use the 2200 too! One well know photographer in the group 
uses this printer and I suspect he charges more in one day then most people 
on this list make in 6 months! You also assume that the 2200 differs in how it 
operates from the 9600 or 7600 but it's simply a smaller version and our 
comments were also viewed by the product manager of the pro line. There 
isn't much difference in the 2200 from the 9600 other than size and price. 

>You are doing exactly what I said was likely, representing specific 
>vested interests... 

Yes indeed, at least a specific mindset! Can you imagine how well a product 
would be if it was designed by committee? The advice given was from a very 
specific slant. You assume that the 2200 was designed for the same group of 
people that might go into Office Depot for a color printer. It wasn't. We were all 
made fully aware of the aim of this productlong before we tested it. That's why 
this group was assembled. We were hand picked based on our specific slant 
and based on the aim of this printer. 


>and if you go back through my posts you'll see that 
>I said that was to be expected , but was not therefore axiomatically 
>negative. The vested interest NEED to be represented.. BUT, as much as 
>is possible, they ALL need to be represented.. 

Product design by committee for pro users, and morons? I wish that could be 
done. Somewhere the product has to have a focus. In the case of the 2200, 
the focus was made.

>You have made clear your 
>independence and objectivity... That does NOT mean you have NO vested 
>interests at all.. 

A post was made to the contrary. I think it should be made CLEAR that our 
collective advice was made for the sole purpose of producing a better 
product. 


>The comment one or two individuals (and I was NOT 
>among them) made about your company and profiles, is NOT the vested 
>interest of which I speak.. 

I understand that and my follow up were not aimed at you personally. 

>Here's my quote as you YOURSELF posted it
>"Does anyone know if there was a single expert on EPSON's panel who had 
>publicly criticized earlier EPSON marketing choices? "

>You really need to read some studies of group dynamics... You may be an 
>expert on profiles, etc.. but from your post you are WAAAY out of your 
>depth on discussing group dynamics and how blue ribbon panels, "as an 
>organic entity," operate.

I never said I was such an expert in this area. I can only tell you that a group of 
people who's advice many companies have asked for in the past were 
assembled and we all unanimously agreed about where GB should be in the 
food chain. Some didn't like that decision Epson made (many who never saw 
the GB in the first place). Based on those people's expertise (or lack) in the 
field AND the fact they never saw the software or knew the aim of the product, 
I have to dismiss much of their posts based on their misunderstandings. 

>And eliminating an already developed piece of software from a shipping 
>product accomplishes that HOW?

Foremost, it insures a good user experience. Do you really think every piece 
of software ever developed sees the light of day once real users hammer on 
it? 

>But see, it doesn't matter does it? IS KEEPING IT OUT OF THE CURRENT 
>SHIPPING PRODUCT SOMEHOW GOING TO GET THAT MONEY BACK?

In the long run yes. The software has to be keep up to date. It needs to be 
changed as the drivers are updated as well as all the flavors of OS change 
(OSX 10.2 will change a lot of issues with printing). It keeps cost down since 
tech support is very expensive, especially for a product that doesn't give any 
bang for the buck as GB does. What happens as the reference target fades or 
the user loses it? Epson has to stock that target and keep dealing with 
customers that need a new one. They have to update the PDF as they refine 
the product (and boy, GB needs refinement in a very big way). Better to cut 
your loses and move one. 

>I assume you aren't going to tell me that the EPSON decision-makers are 
>so wholly irrational that you felt that by having EPSON USA NOT ship the 
>Grey balancer that EPSON would in the next go round not "waste their 
>time" on software other than the driver?

That was our advice to them. We had 4 high level people from Epson Japan 
at the two day meetings. One was in change of ink, the other in charge of the 
driver. One was in charge of GB. Epson flew them from Japan to meet with us. 
We were able to talk with them and tell them our wishes for newer inks, newer 
capabilities of the driver. We were very firm in letting these key people from 
Japan know that the focus made on GB was a bad one. Did that help? Time 
will tell. 

>OR did you argue that the money saved in tech support calls for a piece 
>of "software from hell" could be used to build better drivers for 10K 
>printers sold on the USA market.. ? 

We did that and told them ALL the printers need better drivers. 

So you have access to a large format Epson printer? Have you ever wanted to 
make two 8x10 prints, one next to the other on a 44 inch printer? You can't do 
it unless you gang them both up in the same canvas in Photoshop. That's 
insane. You should be able to have software to do this AUTOMATICALLY so 
you don't print out 34 inches of wasted paper just to get an 8x10 print. You 
can do this on a Roland wide format printer but not an Epson. So we 
discussed all kinds of needs for both desktop and larger format printers. 

>If you even suggested that, 
>suggesting that the US pro-sumer market should indirectly support the 
>development of drivers for the large format market... 

No, I said it was silly to see the same driver on a $99 printer drive a $10,000 
printer. The two have vastly different requirements and users. Make the $99 
driver easier to use and the $10K driver more robust. 

>Actually deciding NOT to ship the software given that a priori 
>investment, makes the time put into the PDF and even into writing the 
>software a COMPLETE loss..

Yes, cut your losses and move on. HAD Japan shown us the product when it 
was pre-alpha, we could have helped design a better product in the first 
place. They didn't so our advice was to cut your losses and move on. I still 
think that's a good idea (as apparently the others in our group feel). Several in 
the group has produced or been instrumental in software development. If you 
had any idea of what has ended up in Adobe Photoshop over the years from 
direct involvement with some of our group, you'd be very impressed. 

>So, again, I ask, by eliminating the grey balancer that gets you more 
>R&D how? 

It gets the resources that would be used to continue with GB off of GB onto 
something far more useful. 

>HUH? You're becoming irrational... If you think the 2200 will be their 
>last prosumer entry I might suggest you need a shot of thorazine to stop 
>whatever delusions you are having..

Did I say that? I said that by moving resources from GB, those resources can 
be used for more important needs. 

>I NEVER suggested you pushed the elimination of the software because it 
>would compete with custom profiles.. 

You didn't, others did. 

>What I DID suggest was that it is 
>impossible for individuals with vested interests to leave them at the 
>conference room door -- the reality is those interests will define the 
>range of your real world experiences.. 

Perhaps you can convince Epson that your expertise in this area is such that 
next time such a group is assembled (and it will be), you can be included. But 
such decisions will not be made casually or by committee. I think it would be a 
very bad idea to have such groups assembled based on a users ability to 
plug a USB cable into a printer. I'm not saying you are such a person but 
rather that there are only so many people that can be brought together to 
advice a company and that these people have to have some level of expertise 
and an idea of what a product is aimed to do and have an idea of the user 
base. 


>If you are frustrated because people choose to critique what the panel 
said, you should have chosen not to participate.. 

I'm frustrated by people that make stupid assumptions based on things they 
know nothing about (like that we advised that GB be removed because some 
of us make profiles). Again, that isn't aimed at you. Those that made such 
assumptions know who they are. I'm frustrated by people that complain that 
they didn't get a piece of software they know nothing about nor have ever 
seen or tried. I'm frustrated by people who suggest that others shouldn't 
purchase a 2200 because the software wasn't placed in the box in the U.S. 
and discount a great printer that does a fine job without said software. 

The bottom line is GB isn't in the U.S. shipping product and it is elsewhere. 
Let's see how well it does in other markets.

Andrew,
 
One thing is crystal clear from your message. You must be an elitist
snob. I've read many of your articles and had respect for you. Those
days are gone, pal. You really think we poor miserable amateurs can't
handle the gray balancer? Do you view your readership with such disdain?
I'm a metallurgical engineer, a member of Tau Beta Pi (that's an
engineering honors fraternity), and have been a "wet" color printer for
25 years. I can guarantee you that metallurgy is orders of magnitude
more complex than playing with printers and color management.
 
I read a detailed description of how gray balancer works in a European
review. It was the reviewer's opinion that Gray Balancer was a primary
reason to get the printer. It did not seem too complex to me.  It's
based on the same principles I've employed for years to gray balance
Cibachrome and Ektacolor (subtractive calculator). IOW, I think I can
handle it. If it's available in Europe, then, By God, I want it too. My
money is as good as theirs. If the software doesn't work, then I won't
use it. But I want to have the opportunity to judge this for myself. 
 
I'm one that frustrated you by making the "stupid" assumption of
conflict of interest. Well, I'm frustrated by self-important assholes
that make decisions about whether I'm smart enough to be allowed to own
software that is freely distributed in the rest of the world. I was hot
to get a 2200, but no longer. I might reluctantly still get one, but
only if Ultrachrome blows everything else away for color. Let's see: $3
per print ink, ink carts that read empty when half full, black ink
switches that drain half a cart x7, and now a stripped down version of
the European model. Sounds like a deal to me!
 
Next time you see your buddy at Epson, tell him you were smart enough to
probably cost him a sale.
 
Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: thedigitaldog [mailto:andrew@...] 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 11:57 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW



The fact that we felt unanimously that the product was far 
too complex for non pros let alone pros, the product manager decided
that GB 
wasn't a good fix for most 2200 users. 


You assume that the 2200 was designed for the same group of 
people that might go into Office Depot for a color printer. 


Product design by committee for pro users, and morons? I wish that could
be 
done. Somewhere the product has to have a focus. In the case of the
2200, 
the focus was made.

I'm frustrated by people that make stupid assumptions based on things
they 
know nothing about






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Incivility should be kept off the list. I hope Andew won't be 
provoked to respond in kind, and I think Lloyd should send this sort 
of e-mail, if at all, off the list. I don't say this because I have a 
dog in this fight. I don't, but I do cherish the spirit of community 
that has grown up around the list and hate to see it corroded by 
expressions like Lloyd's.

Sam McCandless              samcc@...

>Andrew,
>
>One thing is crystal clear from your message. You must be an elitist
>snob. [snip]  I'm frustrated by self-important assholes [snip]
>
>Lloyd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@b...> 

> I read a detailed description of how gray balancer works in a European
> review. It was the reviewer's opinion that Gray Balancer was a primary
> reason to get the printer. 

And you believe that? Well I guess my respect for you just went down the 
tubes. How can a utility (even a good one which GB certainly isn't) the primary 
reason to buy a printer? I thought the primary reason to buy a printer was to 
get great prints. You don't need GB for that. Basing the printer on a utility is 
like deciding to buy Corel Paint instead of Photoshop because the box it 
came in is nicer. Give me a break. 


>it did not seem too complex to me.  

But you don't have it or used it, you got that opinion based on the review. Very 
scientific. At least I spent days with the GB and then spent two days with a 
group of others who agreed that the product was very poor. 

> based on the same principles I've employed for years to gray balance
> Cibachrome and Ektacolor (subtractive calculator).

I never criticized the principles, just the poor execution. Kodak has had a very 
simple gray balancer utility that shipped with their dye sub printers for years. 
And not only was it very simple, it downloaded the gray balance file to the 
printer and could be used for paper types (not that there are anywhere as 
many as an ink jet but once you did ONE gray balance you were done). 

>If it's available in Europe, then, By God, I want it too. 

That's rational thinking. They have the Euro dollar too. You want it? 

>My
> money is as good as theirs. 

They pay MORE for the printer then you do. How much extra will you pay for 
the Gray Balancer?

> I'm one that frustrated you by making the "stupid" assumption of
> conflict of interest. 

Yes , it was quite stupid. For someone that has a science bkgnd, your science 
and logic is very flawed. 

>I was hot
> to get a 2200, but no longer. I might reluctantly still get one, but
> only if Ultrachrome blows everything else away for color.

I don't think the printer is right for you. In fact, NO Epson printer up to this point 
had a gray balancer so I have to assume NO Epson printer was adequate for 
your needs. 


> Next time you see your buddy at Epson, tell him you were smart enough to
> probably cost him a sale.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want a customer like you. You seem to be very high 
maintenance.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Sam A. McCandless" 
<samcc@v...> wrote:
I don't say this because I have a 
> dog in this fight. I don't, but I do cherish the spirit of
community 
> that has grown up around the list and hate to see it corroded by 
> expressions like Lloyd's.


Oh Contrare, Samuel!

This list has become overburdened by pixel count and inkjet 
head analysis. I, for one, welcome a good dogfight every now 
and then, to keep the blood flowing.

I'll send you the link offist -- we've got a numbers operation set 
up now, related to this thread. As of this morning at about 9am, 
the big board says that it's 7-1 odds that Andrew will firetorch the 
guy's car by Thursday afternoon by 3 oclock.

A man's gotta back up his words with actions, and my money is 
on Andrew. He might come off as tech-savvy, but he never 
mentions his years with Jackie Chan.

Deadline for your money on the table is high noon today. Be 
there.

Sam,
 
Actually, I was the one provoked to respond in kind. But, I won't do it
anymore. Life is too short.
 
Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam A. McCandless [mailto:samcc@...] 
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:46 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Lloyd O'Daniel; andrew@...
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW


Incivility should be kept off the list. I hope Andew won't be 
provoked to respond in kind, and I think Lloyd should send this sort 
of e-mail, if at all, off the list. I don't say this because I have a 
dog in this fight. I don't, but I do cherish the spirit of community 
that has grown up around the list and hate to see it corroded by 
expressions like Lloyd's.

Sam McCandless              samcc@...


>Andrew,
>
>One thing is crystal clear from your message. You must be an elitist
>snob. [snip]  I'm frustrated by self-important assholes [snip]
>
>Lloyd



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andrew,
 
No, I don't believe that. I was simply pointing out that his opinion of
the software was very different from yours. And you're right: I haven't
seen it or used it. You have seen to it that I won't get that chance,
which is the point. 
 
The 2200 was billed as the first Epson printer that was capable of
printing "good" B&W and color out of the same inkset. Grey Balancer was
listed as the utility that facilitated this, for those of us not yet
ready to justify custom profiles or spectro's. This was straight from
Epson propaganda on the printer. This piqued my interest. I particularly
wanted to evaluate the B&W and color from the UC inkset from the
standpoint of someday getting a 7600. I'd like to print 24" and I can't
justify one for color and one for B&W. 
 
I'm using Gen4 for color now and am not unhappy with it. I might try
Wide Spectrum dyes when they are released for desktops, avoiding the
pigment problems altogether. IOW, I have plenty of color options that
might be as good as or better (and certainly cheaper) than Ultrachromes.
Unless UC's are really great, color-capability won't motivate me to
incur the outrageous ink cost.
 
Actually, I'm as low maintenance as it gets. None of my Epson printers
have ever had Epson ink in them beyond the set included in the box.
Epson never hears from me. Based on what I've read here lately, I think
it will probably stay that way.
 
Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: thedigitaldog [mailto:andrew@...] 
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 9:15 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Lloyd O'Daniel"
<lodaniel@b...> 


And you believe that? Well I guess my respect for you just went down the

tubes. How can a utility (even a good one which GB certainly isn't) the
primary 
reason to buy a printer? I thought the primary reason to buy a printer
was to 
get great prints. You don't need GB for that. Basing the printer on a
utility is 
like deciding to buy Corel Paint instead of Photoshop because the box it

came in is nicer. Give me a break. 


>it did not seem too complex to me.  

But you don't have it or used it, you got that opinion based on the
review. Very 
scientific. At least I spent days with the GB and then spent two days
with a 
group of others who agreed that the product was very poor. 

> based on the same principles I've employed for years to gray balance
> Cibachrome and Ektacolor (subtractive calculator).

I never criticized the principles, just the poor execution. Kodak has
had a very 
simple gray balancer utility that shipped with their dye sub printers
for years. 
And not only was it very simple, it downloaded the gray balance file to
the 
printer and could be used for paper types (not that there are anywhere
as 
many as an ink jet but once you did ONE gray balance you were done). 

>If it's available in Europe, then, By God, I want it too. 

That's rational thinking. They have the Euro dollar too. You want it? 

>My
> money is as good as theirs. 

They pay MORE for the printer then you do. How much extra will you pay
for 
the Gray Balancer?

> I'm one that frustrated you by making the "stupid" assumption of
> conflict of interest. 

Yes , it was quite stupid. For someone that has a science bkgnd, your
science 
and logic is very flawed. 

>I was hot
> to get a 2200, but no longer. I might reluctantly still get one, but
> only if Ultrachrome blows everything else away for color.

I don't think the printer is right for you. In fact, NO Epson printer up
to this point 
had a gray balancer so I have to assume NO Epson printer was adequate
for 
your needs. 


> Next time you see your buddy at Epson, tell him you were smart enough
to
> probably cost him a sale.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want a customer like you. You seem to be
very high 
maintenance. 



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same page.

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- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
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- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Then I singled you out unfairly, even if unintentionally, Lloyd. I'm 
sorry for that. And I think you're right about life being too short 
for such distractions.

Sam

>Sam,
>
>Actually, I was the one provoked to respond in kind. But, I won't do it
>anymore. Life is too short.
>
>Lloyd
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sam A. McCandless [mailto:samcc@...]
>Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:46 AM
>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Cc: Lloyd O'Daniel; andrew@...
>Subject: RE: [Digital BW] News on Epson 2200 Gray Balancer SW
>
>
>Incivility should be kept off the list. I hope Andew won't be
>provoked to respond in kind, and I think Lloyd should send this sort
>of e-mail, if at all, off the list. I don't say this because I have a
>dog in this fight. I don't, but I do cherish the spirit of community
>that has grown up around the list and hate to see it corroded by
>expressions like Lloyd's.
>
>Sam McCandless              samcc@...
>
>
> >Andrew,
> >
> >One thing is crystal clear from your message. You must be an elitist
> >snob. [snip]  I'm frustrated by self-important assholes [snip]
> >
> >Lloyd