Digital BW, The Print

Is the print exchange still open for sign up? I'm willing to 
participate...
André Vallejo

Yes, I'll contact you offlist.

Tom O'Connell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "andrevallejo" <avs@p...> 
wrote:

> Is the print exchange still open for sign up? I'm willing to 
> participate...
> André Vallejo

Of course your situation may be different, but as a possible more 
innocent view of things consider this: I bought into and manage a 
framing and gallery business in May. I have come across several 
wonderful pieces of art that do not have any information at all about 
ownership, creator or anything. My obligation to myself and the other 
stock holders is to maintain profitability. So....I am selling all the 
"found" artwork in my shop.

Maybe there is a less innocent reason for your prints being sold that 
way, but just throwing it out there. I wish you the best and may all of 
your photographs sell.

Jerry


http://www.jerryhadamphoto.com

In Saddletree Custom Framing
  - Crazy Horse Square- Ketchum
P 208 726-3834
F 208 726-7669
C 208 720-2383
Toll free 888-540-8053

Jerry Hadam Photography
Box 2910
Ketchum, ID 83340

jerry@...
On Dec 17, 2004, at 1:52 PM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 3
>    Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:39:46 -0000
>    From: "sethrus" <seth@...>
> Subject: Print exchange
>
>
> Tom, et al-
>
> I opened an e-mail today with some dismay.
>
> It was from a person that had bought one of my prints
> from "collection in a shop...."  He was, quite innocently, asking
> where the photo was taken.
>
> My question to all is this:
>
> 1.  Has anyone else run into this?
>
> 2.  Do all involved understand that the people participating in the
> exchange still have original copyright of their own work?
>
> 3.  SURELY, the people selling the photos know it's illegal.  I am
> trying to track down "the shop" now and will let all know if I
> locate it.
>
> Seth

Seth,

I don't know if it's illegal, after all, we have given away the print. 
Ownership of a print is not the same as copyright. Reproducing the 
print or publishing it would be a violation.

But I do want to know: How much did the print sell for?

-bruce


On Friday, Dec 17, 2004, at 12:52 US/Pacific, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 3
>    Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:39:46 -0000
>    From: "sethrus" <seth@...>
> Subject: Print exchange
>
>
> Tom, et al-
>
> I opened an e-mail today with some dismay.
>
> It was from a person that had bought one of my prints
> from "collection in a shop...."  He was, quite innocently, asking
> where the photo was taken.
>
> My question to all is this:
>
> 1.  Has anyone else run into this?
>
> 2.  Do all involved understand that the people participating in the
> exchange still have original copyright of their own work?
>
> 3.  SURELY, the people selling the photos know it's illegal.  I am
> trying to track down "the shop" now and will let all know if I
> locate it.
>
> Seth

Jerry-

Whether you know who did them or not is NOT a defense to copyright
violation.

In this case, all of the exchanges had are names and photo information on
the backs.  How else would the person who bought it know who to contact?

I AM, however, bringing up the point that WE as exchange participants must
understand that there are no "rights" transferred with the exchange. 

Seth

=-----Original Message-----
=From: Jerry Hadam [mailto:jerry@...] 
=
=Of course your situation may be different, but as a possible more 
=innocent view of things consider this: I bought into and manage a 
=framing and gallery business in May. I have come across several 
=wonderful pieces of art that do not have any information at all about 
=ownership, creator or anything. My obligation to myself and the other 
=stock holders is to maintain profitability. So....I am selling all the 
="found" artwork in my shop.
=
=>
=> Tom, et al-
=>
=> I opened an e-mail today with some dismay.
=>
=> It was from a person that had bought one of my prints
=> from "collection in a shop...."  He was, quite innocently, asking 
=> where the photo was taken.
=>
=> My question to all is this:
=>
=> 1.  Has anyone else run into this?
=>
=> 2.  Do all involved understand that the people participating in the 
=> exchange still have original copyright of their own work?
=>
=> 3.  SURELY, the people selling the photos know it's illegal.  I am 
=> trying to track down "the shop" now and will let all know if 
=I locate 
=> it.
=>
=> Seth
=
=
=
=------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
=--------------------~--> 
=Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
=Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! 
=http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/ucIolB/TM
=---------------------------------------------------------------
=-----~-> 
=
=Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
=resources as they are often being updated.
=
=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
=
=If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
=you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
=preferences by visiting this same page.
=
=Please follow these basic guidelines:
=- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
=messages to keep them short.
=- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
=or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
=removed from the membership without notice.
=- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
=digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic 
=posts may be removed from the membership.
=- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
=rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
=decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, 
=Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: 
=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWh=iteThePrint/file
=s/
=
=BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
=THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
=THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO 
=GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, 
=INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, 
=INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
=GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  
="OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
=HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
=RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE 
=DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO 
=OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS 
=OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
=YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL 
=BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
= 
=Yahoo! Groups Links
=
=
=
= 
=
=
=
=
=

No rights, certainly. However if the recipient chooses to take aforesaid print and sell it to a gallery or interested party, patch a hole in their wall with it, or shred it and use it for kitty litter, there is nothing stopping them from doing that. It cannot be sold as a piece to be used for marketing/advertising (there is implied copyright, though the individual who made it probably never registered it). Look at it as if you had bought a coca-cola sign at a garage sale . . . it has obviously been bought/sold/redistributed many a time, all legal, no one hopefully has been stupid enough to try and use the sign/logo for their own marketing though (it does happen sometimes).

Whoever started this thread, get over the fact that someone sold/gave away one of your prints . . . you did exactly the same thing . . . you gave it away. If you think that you are the next Picasso, Weston or whatever, get a few books on the legal ramifications of copyright and learn what it means before you toss your work out to the unsuspecting public, but read quickly though . . . there is always some other twist or turn happening in the intellectual property rights world.

good luck
Paul Aparycki


  I AM, however, bringing up the point that WE as exchange participants must
  understand that there are no "rights" transferred with the exchange. 

  Seth


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually, I started this thread.  But, thanks for the legal advice.

However, since I DO have a law degree AND I register my stuff with the LOC
for copyright, I am VERY familiar with use and sale.   The law only allows
educational and journalistic use.  When it was sold in a shop, it became
commercial use.  That's neither here nor there.

My point is: I think we go into this expecting a little more from each other
in the exchange.  Who knows who is the next Picasso or Weston and that is
not an issue.  It's respect for the other's work.

The OTHER issue is the "shop" selling on an open market.



=
=Whoever started this thread, get over the fact that someone 
=sold/gave away one of your prints . . . you did exactly the 
=same thing . . . you gave it away. If you think that you are 
=the next Picasso, Weston or whatever, get a few books on the 
=legal ramifications of copyright and learn what it means 
=before you toss your work out to the unsuspecting public, but 
=read quickly though . . . there is always some other twist or 
=turn happening in the intellectual property rights world.
=
=good luck
=Paul Aparycki
=
=
=  I AM, however, bringing up the point that WE as exchange 
=participants must
=  understand that there are no "rights" transferred with the exchange. 
=
=  Seth
=
=
=[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
=
=
=
=------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
=--------------------~--> 
=Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
=Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! 
=http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/ucIolB/TM
=---------------------------------------------------------------
=-----~-> 
=
=Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
=resources as they are often being updated.
=
=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
=
=If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
=you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
=preferences by visiting this same page.
=
=Please follow these basic guidelines:
=- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
=messages to keep them short.
=- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
=or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
=removed from the membership without notice.
=- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
=digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic 
=posts may be removed from the membership.
=- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
=rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
=decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, 
=Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: 
=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWh=iteThePrint/file
=s/
=
=BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
=THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
=THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO 
=GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, 
=INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, 
=INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
=GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  
="OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
=HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
=RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE 
=DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO 
=OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS 
=OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
=YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL 
=BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
= 
=Yahoo! Groups Links
=
=
=
= 
=
=
=
=
=

IANAL, but I assume when you "exchange" your print, you didn't specify
that the print's not transferable, did you? 

You own the copyright only means that the print's cannot be
reproduced, or duplicated into a poster, etc without you allowing it. 

Just like you wrote a book, give it to me in exchange for food/money
(or whatever I write), I am free to sell it, and put it back into the
market. Copyright law is not designed to stop me from selling it. It's
designed to stop me from making copies of the book and sell the copies.

Ownership right and copyright are totally different things. You
exchanged the print for something else, you transferred the ownership.
You still retain the copyright unless there's a separate "written"
agreement. 

Michael (Again, I am not a lawyer)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Seth Rossman"
<seth@m...> wrote:
> Actually, I started this thread.  But, thanks for the legal advice.
> 
> However, since I DO have a law degree AND I register my stuff with
the LOC
> for copyright, I am VERY familiar with use and sale.   The law only
allows
> educational and journalistic use.  When it was sold in a shop, it became
> commercial use.  That's neither here nor there.
> 
> My point is: I think we go into this expecting a little more from
each other
> in the exchange.  Who knows who is the next Picasso or Weston and
that is

> not an issue.  It's respect for the other's work.
> 
> The OTHER issue is the "shop" selling on an open market.

Regarding the print exchange - if one of the members chooses to sell their
exchanged print there is NO violation of copyright, nor is there if that
person then sells the print to a third party and so on.

No unauthorized copy was made. That's what copyright is about at it's most
basic it's about making or using unauthorized copies - no copy no violation.

As long as the piece is hung on a wall, propped on a mantelpiece or even
hang it in a gallery etc there is nothing the original owner can really do
about it. Doesn't matter if the work is registered with the copyright office
or not. (as an aside, especially so in the US which inexplicably lacks a
Moral Rights component to copyright law)

Only if someone then copied the work and used it in some commercial form do
you start to move into the area of copyright violation and begin to have a
leg to stand on.

Either write out clear ownership and property terms for the print exchange
or don't exchange your prints - it's fairly simple.

tim a

> The OTHER issue is the "shop" selling on an open market.

aside from an personal moral and ethical issues (i.e. maybe one expects
better of the print exchange members) there doesn't seem to be any issue
with the shop re-selling a print which was acquired legitimately?


tim

So true, Seth.

I read way too many postings where there is disrespect for the other 
party.

Come on folks - treat your postings as if the other party you're 
addressing is standing right in front of you - don't write anything you 
wouldn't say to his/her face.

And read the postings twice - or thrice - before you dash off a repost.

With respect,

C


			Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell
			   http://www.ChristerArt.com
		  	   3.5 million visitors to date..


On Dec 18, 2004, at 8:14 PM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 6
>    Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 16:08:53 -0500
>    From: "Seth Rossman" <seth@...>
> Subject: RE: Re: Print exchange
>
> Actually, I started this thread.  But, thanks for the legal advice.
>
> However, since I DO have a law degree AND I register my stuff with the 
> LOC
> for copyright, I am VERY familiar with use and sale.   The law only 
> allows
> educational and journalistic use.  When it was sold in a shop, it 
> became
> commercial use.  That's neither here nor there.
>
> My point is: I think we go into this expecting a little more from each 
> other
> in the exchange.  Who knows who is the next Picasso or Weston and that 
> is
> not an issue.  It's respect for the other's work.
>
> The OTHER issue is the "shop" selling on an open market.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]