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Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-03 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
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From: "thedigitaldog" <andrew@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 12:09 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Dan_Honemann" <
> dan_honemann@y...> wrote:
> > Does a RIP like ImagePrint obviate the need for custom printer/paper
> > profiles, or do the two work in tandem?
>
> You can build custom profiles if you like. If you use a paper that isn't
> supported, you'd want to do this (although the RIP comes with a target
that
> you can output and send to ColorByte and they will create a profile for
you).
>
> For grins I build a custom profile and it worked just fine. I simply
opened the
> target from ProfileMaker Pro (the new 9.88), set the RIP so it would not
use an
> output profile, measured and loaded the new profile.

Was this for a grayscale ink set? Do you think ProfilerPro would be up to
the task with grayscale?

Martin Wesley

[Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-03 by thedigitaldog

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
mwesley250@e...> wrote:
>
> Was this for a grayscale ink set? Do you think ProfilerPro would be up to
> the task with grayscale?

No, full color. I can't think of any software off hand that allows one to make a 
true grayscale profile. We need that. ProfileMaker Pro allows you to make a 
CMYK profile, then save out just the information about black channel and end 
up with a grayscale profile but that's not going to fly. I'm meeting with a few 
companies next week at Seybold that make profile software and on the top of 
my list is the ability to make a true grayscale profile. 

The profiles from ImagePrint are made using ColorByte's own profile software. 
They will make you a profile if you wish (and I think it's free). They supply a 
target (grayscale as well). I was told they are considering selling this profiling 
package which would be a solution for building profiles for the gray inkset.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-03 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "thedigitaldog" <andrew@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 2:04 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
> mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Was this for a grayscale ink set? Do you think ProfilerPro would be up
to
> > the task with grayscale?
>
> No, full color. I can't think of any software off hand that allows one to
make a
> true grayscale profile. We need that. ProfileMaker Pro allows you to make
a
> CMYK profile, then save out just the information about black channel and
end
> up with a grayscale profile but that's not going to fly. I'm meeting with
a few
> companies next week at Seybold that make profile software and on the top
of
> my list is the ability to make a true grayscale profile.
>
> The profiles from ImagePrint are made using ColorByte's own profile
software.
> They will make you a profile if you wish (and I think it's free). They
supply a
> target (grayscale as well). I was told they are considering selling this
profiling
> package which would be a solution for building profiles for the gray
inkset.

I was afraid you would say that. I am very happy to hear that you will be
carrying the word to Seybold on the issue. It certainly needs to be
addressed. While the B&W market is small I suspect that once the tide does
shift and silver printers start moving to digital in large numbers it might
prove lucrative. Especially to those who got in early.

I am sending out some targets to Colorbyte today but I was curious to know
if I had a shot at doing anything with my own resources.

If Colorbyte makes the profiling capability available then they really will
top the competition in the grayscale market.

Martin Wesley

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-04 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 9/3/02 5:59:46 PM, mwesley250@... writes:

>I'm meeting with
>a few
> companies next week at Seybold that make profile software and on the
>top
>of
> my list is the ability to make a true grayscale profile.

The problem is that, like a CMYK profile, a Gray profile is a device 
description. If that device is using Small Gamut CMYK inks, then a standard 
RGB or CMYK profile can do a good job defining the device, depending on what 
profiling package is used. For devices running various neutral gray inks, or 
a few of those and one or two toned inks for tonal adjustments, the current 
methods of conversion to these colors is currently done by transfer curves 
and other non-ICC processes. The idea that simply creating an ICC  Gray 
profile will somehow automatically address such systems is impractical, 
unless the ICC process were to be moved forward to an n-channnel system with 
very sophistocated channel interactions.

What would actually be needed would be driver or RIP controls for several 
grays, similar to the current light and dark C&M controls in some RIPS, as 
well as seperate tonal controls for any toning colors, and linearization ramp 
targets and input to define these controls. Unless a standard system was 
chosen, and ICC standards for defining the process developed, this could not 
be turned into something universal like a gray profile.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

[Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-04 by thedigitaldog

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., CDTobie@a... wrote:

> The problem is that, like a CMYK profile, a Gray profile is a device 
> description. If that device is using Small Gamut CMYK inks, then a standard 
> RGB or CMYK profile can do a good job defining the device, depending on 
what 
> profiling package is used. For devices running various neutral gray inks, or 
> a few of those and one or two toned inks for tonal adjustments, the current 
> methods of conversion to these colors is currently done by transfer curves 
> and other non-ICC processes.

In the case of ImagePrint, its really neither. ImagePrint uses 6 of the 7 inks to 
print in its monotone mode. I guess one could try setting the yellow ink limit to 
zero and building a "standard" RGB output profile. Don't know if that would fly 
or not. I do know that the target supplied by ColorByte for building a "monotint" 
(grayscale) profile has no color patches but uses 6 color inks. Go figure. 

From what I've seen, I'd simply stick with the supplied profiles for printing 
Monotint. The output is that good. If I had a paper not supported, I'd print it out 
and send to ColorByte for a profile. For color output, I've seen no reason to 
treat this product any differently with regard to making profiles. The color 
profile to Matt paper using ProfileMaker Pro was great.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-04 by Martin Wesley

David,

Thank you for all the good info on ICC standards and profiling. Sounds like
Seybold might want to consider the idea of a standard for profiling
grayscale ink sets. I understand the problem and I guess profiling a
grayscale inks are more akin to the offset printing technology of quality
quadtone printing. I have to feel that the technology is there if someone or
group wants to devote the time to it.

I still find it fascinating that in the digital world there has been this
complete reversal between Color and B&W, and that quality B&W printing is so
much more difficult than Color printing.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: <CDTobie@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 5:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles


>
> In a message dated 9/3/02 5:59:46 PM, mwesley250@... writes:
>
> >I'm meeting with
> >a few
> > companies next week at Seybold that make profile software and on the
> >top
> >of
> > my list is the ability to make a true grayscale profile.
>
> The problem is that, like a CMYK profile, a Gray profile is a device
> description. If that device is using Small Gamut CMYK inks, then a
standard
> RGB or CMYK profile can do a good job defining the device, depending on
what
> profiling package is used. For devices running various neutral gray inks,
or
> a few of those and one or two toned inks for tonal adjustments, the
current
> methods of conversion to these colors is currently done by transfer curves
> and other non-ICC processes. The idea that simply creating an ICC  Gray
> profile will somehow automatically address such systems is impractical,
> unless the ICC process were to be moved forward to an n-channnel system
with
> very sophistocated channel interactions.
>
> What would actually be needed would be driver or RIP controls for several
> grays, similar to the current light and dark C&M controls in some RIPS, as
> well as seperate tonal controls for any toning colors, and linearization
ramp
> targets and input to define these controls. Unless a standard system was
> chosen, and ICC standards for defining the process developed, this could
not
> be turned into something universal like a gray profile.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Design Cooperative
> CDTobie@...
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-04 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 9/4/02 12:13:57 PM, mwesley250@... writes:

>Thank you for all the good info on ICC standards and profiling. Sounds
>like
>Seybold might want to consider the idea of a standard for profiling
>grayscale ink sets.

That would have to be taken up by the International Color Consortium; though 
the color geeks that typically meet at Seybold would be a good group to 
propose such an item to the ICC, if they chose to. Such standards move 
slowly; so if you'd like to control your B&W in the next few year, you'll be 
obliged to use proprietary methods instead.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

[Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-04 by tboleyyh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., CDTobie@a... wrote:
snip
> The problem is that, like a CMYK profile, a Gray profile is a device 
> description. If that device is using Small Gamut CMYK inks, then a
standard 
> RGB or CMYK profile can do a good job defining the device, depending
on what 
> profiling package is used. For devices running various neutral gray
inks, or 
> a few of those and one or two toned inks for tonal adjustments, the
current 
> methods of conversion to these colors is currently done by transfer
curves 
> and other non-ICC processes. The idea that simply creating an ICC  Gray 
> profile will somehow automatically address such systems is impractical, 
> unless the ICC process were to be moved forward to an n-channnel
system with 
> very sophistocated channel interactions.

Exactly. Right, of course, as usual. The advanced and most succesful
B&W inkjet printing methods use 4 gray inks, or 3 plus a toner, or
some variation. Most people on this list are using such a system.
Charaterization of the device can be enormously useful, but does not
provide for the kinds of conversions required to make the most of
these inksets.
Color management can have no idea of the ideal way these inksets
should be put down on paper to their best advantage. It can be useful
to help determine what a device will do when those kinds of
manipulations are done though.
An ICC workflow wants to correct color (to put it blandly and overly
simple), quad printing has a different end goal. Since color
management can help us with dot gain etc. with different papers, for
one thing, it can be very helpful. But it needs to know what the new
"ideal" is to make use of a profile and take things the rest of the
way there.
Tyler

[Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-06 by Dan_Honemann

Many thanks for the informative replies to my question.  Your 
responses lead me to a second question (or maybe another way of 
formulating the first): since Colorbyte provides free profiles for 
papers to ImagePrint customers, does it make any sense for me to 
invest in custom profiling software (and a flatbed scanner, neither 
of which I own now)?  I also don't own a densitometer, if that 
matters.  I intend to print both color and b&w on my 2200 using a 
variety of papers.

Thanks,
Dan


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "thedigitaldog" 
<andrew@d...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From what I've seen, I'd simply stick with the supplied 
> profiles for printing Monotint. The output is that good. 
> If I had a paper not supported, I'd print it out 
> and send to ColorByte for a profile. For color output, 
> I've seen no reason to treat this product any differently 
> with regard to making profiles. The color 
> profile to Matt paper using ProfileMaker Pro was great.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-06 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 9/6/02 10:22:14 AM, dan_honemann@... writes:

>Many thanks for the informative replies to my question.  Your 
>responses lead me to a second question (or maybe another way of 
>formulating the first): since Colorbyte provides free profiles for 
>papers to ImagePrint customers, does it make any sense for me to 
>invest in custom profiling software (and a flatbed scanner, neither 
>of which I own now)?  I also don't own a densitometer, if that 
>matters.  I intend to print both color and b&w on my 2200 using a 
>variety of papers.

First off, a scanner-based printer profile is not likely to do justice to 
your RIP and your 2200, especially for black and white. If ColorByte is 
truely going to build free, unlimited, profiles for everyone who purchases 
the low cost version of their RIP for the 2200, and if the profiles are 
actual, accurate ICC profiles, then thats the way to go... but it seems 
unlikely that they would. Wait until this shakes out before looking any 
further, and if you end up looking, investigate spectro-based systems.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

RE: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-06 by Andrew Biggs

I just got off of the phone with Colorbyte Software, and the unlimited
profiles rumor is definitely true. Apparently, they already have a very
large number of Epson and third party papers already profiled.
 
The software might be shipping on Monday, and the desktop version will
be $495. Currently the Epson 2200 is the only desktop printer supported.
 
-Andy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: CDTobie@... [mailto:CDTobie@...] 
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 2:05 PM
To: dan_honemann@...; DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles



	
	In a message dated 9/6/02 10:22:14 AM, dan_honemann@...
writes:
	
	>Many thanks for the informative replies to my question.  Your 
	>responses lead me to a second question (or maybe another way of

	>formulating the first): since Colorbyte provides free profiles
for 
	>papers to ImagePrint customers, does it make any sense for me
to 
	>invest in custom profiling software (and a flatbed scanner,
neither 
	>of which I own now)?  I also don't own a densitometer, if that 
	>matters.  I intend to print both color and b&w on my 2200 using
a 
	>variety of papers.
	
	First off, a scanner-based printer profile is not likely to do
justice to 
	your RIP and your 2200, especially for black and white. If
ColorByte is 
	truely going to build free, unlimited, profiles for everyone who
purchases 
	the low cost version of their RIP for the 2200, and if the
profiles are 
	actual, accurate ICC profiles, then thats the way to go... but
it seems 
	unlikely that they would. Wait until this shakes out before
looking any 
	further, and if you end up looking, investigate spectro-based
systems.
	
	C. David Tobie
	Design Cooperative
	CDTobie@...
	
	
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-06 by Dan_Honemann

This is great news.  If ImagePrint 5.0 is half as good as Andrew 
claims with b&w, and works equal magic with color, Colorbyte will be 
enjoying many sales indeed.

For now, I'll resist putting any time and money toward building 
custom ICCs and see how ImagePrint alone fares.

Dan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Andrew Biggs" 
<abiggs@t...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I just got off of the phone with Colorbyte Software, 
> and the unlimited profiles rumor is definitely true. 
> Apparently, they already have a very large number of 
> Epson and third party papers already profiled.
>  
> The software might be shipping on Monday, and the 
> desktop version will be $495. Currently the Epson 2200
> is the only desktop printer supported.
>  
> -Andy

RE: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-06 by Andrew Biggs

I think we will be getting some pretty quick feedback from people.
However, Andrew is out of town for the next week, so maybe not so quick.
 
:-)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Dan_Honemann [mailto:dan_honemann@...] 
	Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 3:00 PM
	To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
	Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles
	
	
	This is great news.  If ImagePrint 5.0 is half as good as Andrew

	claims with b&w, and works equal magic with color, Colorbyte
will be 
	enjoying many sales indeed.
	
	For now, I'll resist putting any time and money toward building 
	custom ICCs and see how ImagePrint alone fares.
	
	Dan
	
	--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Andrew Biggs" 
	<abiggs@t...> wrote:
	> I just got off of the phone with Colorbyte Software, 
	> and the unlimited profiles rumor is definitely true. 
	> Apparently, they already have a very large number of 
	> Epson and third party papers already profiled.
	>  
	> The software might be shipping on Monday, and the 
	> desktop version will be $495. Currently the Epson 2200
	> is the only desktop printer supported.
	>  
	> -Andy
	
	
	
	
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint and Custom Profiles

2002-09-07 by Bob Frost

Andy,

And the rest! Reading the 'small print' on their site, $495 dollars entitles
you to use the program on one printer and receive upgrades and support for
only 90 days. After that upgrades and support will cost you another $495 PER
YEAR, as will use on another printer.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Andrew Biggs" <abiggs@...>

> The software might be shipping on Monday, and the desktop version will
> be $495. Currently the Epson 2200 is the only desktop printer supported.

ImagePrint support

2002-09-07 by ruhrfoto

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Frost" 
<bobfrost@b...> wrote:
> Andy,
> 
> And the rest! Reading the 'small print' on their site, $495 
dollars entitles
> you to use the program on one printer and receive upgrades 
and support for
> only 90 days. After that upgrades and support will cost you 
another $495 PER
> YEAR, as will use on another printer.
> 
> Bob Frost.


Just for the records:
they have been supporting and updating/upgrading me now  
since 5 months without charging anything. 
And I´m not a ß-tester.
Bernd

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