Digital BW, The Print

Has Paul done fade testing on the Generations enhanced black? How much higher is the Dmax compared to the MIS black?Stephen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As my original Piezography inks begin to run out, I, like many others
before 
me am faced with a decision of what to buy now. I print with an Epson
1160 
and a CIS. I have been relatively happy with the old inks, but have
never 
really been able to get prints through the Piezo driver without some 
microbanding. I have found myself using the Epson driver most often
and find 
the quality to be nearly as good if not better for my photographs and
there is 
no microbanding.

I realize this amounts to heresy to many on this list, but I don't
even really use 
a special workflow ;-)  What looks good on my screen in rgb mode
generally 
looks good on paper with a few tweaks in Photoshop. Although I've
never 
suffered from the major "greenies" I do find that on some papers
there is a 
slight greenish cast to the inks that I don't like. 

I admire all of the people on this and other lists who seem to have
unlimited 
time for testing and re-testing inks and papers and workflows etc. 
With a full 
schedule and a baby on the way, I don't have the time or energy to
screw 
around any more. I just need to make some prints. I've never once
printed a 
step wedge or a gray ramp and I'm sure many purists would say my
prints are 
lacking in tone definition somewhere.  As a people photographer and
former 
newspaper photojournalist, I like my black and whites to be snappy. A
little 
compression in some shadows is fine by me.

I tell you all of this not to bore you, but to explain why I don't
want to get 
sucked into the minutiae of quadtone printing.

So what's my best choice? I certainly like the price of the MIS inks
and think 
they would probably do the job for me, but I have a couple of
questions. 
What's the latest real-world experience with fading of these inks? Do
they 
suffer from the "greenies" either major or minor? Are there any other 
drawbacks?  If I thought that Piezotones would be foolproof, I would
spend the 
money, but I'm not sure they are worth it until they have been around
a bit 
longer. I have no interest in shelling out the money for Imageprint
right now 
either.  

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
-- 
Jeff Thompson Photography
715.838.9962
www.jeffthompsonphoto.com
jeff@...

Jeff:

My opinion is that if you like your 1160's prints created with 
PiezoBW, you will like your prints with MIS FS -- either through the 
Piezo driver that you are familiar with or Epson driver using the 
1160 RGB Partitioned workflow.  See Files>Ink Sets>MIS>MIS FS of this 
forum. The FS inkset is slightly less warm than the Piezo inkset and 
FS fading is the same or less than the Piezo inkset.  No greenies on 
my 1160 with FS ink since I first switched a little over a year ago. 

If you want to experiment with cool to sepia tone prints, the MIS VM 
ink family is worth purchasing in carts and giving them a test drive 
through the Epson driver only.  Paul Roark's workflows for the VM ink 
family are located on the MIS Quad Workflow page at www.inksupply.com

Good Luck.

Jeff Randall





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jtphoto1" <jtphoto@j...> 
wrote:
> As my original Piezography inks begin to run out, I, like many 
others
> before 
> me am faced with a decision of what to buy now. I print with an 
Epson
> 1160 
> and a CIS. I have been relatively happy with the old inks, but have
> never 
> really been able to get prints through the Piezo driver without 
some 
> microbanding. I have found myself using the Epson driver most often
> and find 
> the quality to be nearly as good if not better for my photographs 
and
> there is 
> no microbanding.
> 
> I realize this amounts to heresy to many on this list, but I don't
> even really use 
> a special workflow ;-)  What looks good on my screen in rgb mode
> generally 
> looks good on paper with a few tweaks in Photoshop. Although I've
> never 
> suffered from the major "greenies" I do find that on some papers
> there is a 
> slight greenish cast to the inks that I don't like. 
> 
> I admire all of the people on this and other lists who seem to have
> unlimited 
> time for testing and re-testing inks and papers and workflows etc. 
> With a full 
> schedule and a baby on the way, I don't have the time or energy to
> screw 
> around any more. I just need to make some prints. I've never once
> printed a 
> step wedge or a gray ramp and I'm sure many purists would say my
> prints are 
> lacking in tone definition somewhere.  As a people photographer and
> former 
> newspaper photojournalist, I like my black and whites to be snappy. 
A
> little 
> compression in some shadows is fine by me.
> 
> I tell you all of this not to bore you, but to explain why I don't
> want to get 
> sucked into the minutiae of quadtone printing.
> 
> So what's my best choice? I certainly like the price of the MIS inks
> and think 
> they would probably do the job for me, but I have a couple of
> questions. 
> What's the latest real-world experience with fading of these inks? 
Do
> they 
> suffer from the "greenies" either major or minor? Are there any 
other 
> drawbacks?  If I thought that Piezotones would be foolproof, I would
> spend the 
> money, but I'm not sure they are worth it until they have been 
around

> a bit 
> longer. I have no interest in shelling out the money for Imageprint
> right now 
> either.  
> 
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
> -- 
> Jeff Thompson Photography
> 715.838.9962
> www.jeffthompsonphoto.com
> jeff@j...

At the moment I am using MIS-FN ink and 3 different workflows on my 1160,
each depending upon the image: PiezographyBW, the Epson driver with John
Woolf's curve and the Epson Driver with Jeff Randall's curve.  I loved the
original Piezo ink, but got tired of wrestling with clogs and banding.  I
switched over to MIS and never had a problem with either.  I tried the new
Piezotone ink and developed banding again, though no clogging.  So I'm back
to MIS, and I'm very happy.  I use carts rather than a CIS since I tend to
change inks off and on, if that makes a difference.

  S T E P H E N   J E N N I N G S
            P h o t o g r a p h e r
    Cambridge, MA 02138-3960
       sgjennin@...
http://www.stephenjennings.com

> 
> As my original Piezography inks begin to run out, I, like many others
> before 
> me am faced with a decision of what to buy now. I print with an Epson
> 1160 
> and a CIS. I have been relatively happy with the old inks, but have
> never 
> really been able to get prints through the Piezo driver without some
> microbanding. I have found myself using the Epson driver most often
> and find 
> the quality to be nearly as good if not better for my photographs and
> there is 
> no microbanding.
> 
> I realize this amounts to heresy to many on this list, but I don't
> even really use 
> a special workflow ;-)  What looks good on my screen in rgb mode
> generally 
> looks good on paper with a few tweaks in Photoshop. Although I've
> never 
> suffered from the major "greenies" I do find that on some papers
> there is a 
> slight greenish cast to the inks that I don't like.
> 
> I admire all of the people on this and other lists who seem to have
> unlimited 
> time for testing and re-testing inks and papers and workflows etc.
> With a full 
> schedule and a baby on the way, I don't have the time or energy to
> screw 
> around any more. I just need to make some prints. I've never once
> printed a 
> step wedge or a gray ramp and I'm sure many purists would say my
> prints are 
> lacking in tone definition somewhere.  As a people photographer and
> former 
> newspaper photojournalist, I like my black and whites to be snappy. A
> little 
> compression in some shadows is fine by me.
> 
> I tell you all of this not to bore you, but to explain why I don't
> want to get 
> sucked into the minutiae of quadtone printing.
> 
> So what's my best choice? I certainly like the price of the MIS inks
> and think 
> they would probably do the job for me, but I have a couple of
> questions. 
> What's the latest real-world experience with fading of these inks? Do
> they 
> suffer from the "greenies" either major or minor? Are there any other
> drawbacks?  If I thought that Piezotones would be foolproof, I would
> spend the 
> money, but I'm not sure they are worth it until they have been around
> a bit 
> longer. I have no interest in shelling out the money for Imageprint
> right now 
> either.  
> 
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
> -- 
> Jeff Thompson Photography
> 715.838.9962
> www.jeffthompsonphoto.com
> jeff@...
>

Hello,
Great that a thread started about how to enter the realm of digital
printing. I follow this list's discussions but quite a lot is above my
head at the moment. One thing I did understand: you have to start
somewhere. 
Since I am in the market for a new office printer I try to get one that
will allow me to start printing also photo's. I have quite some
experience in the B/W wet dark room, have a simple 35 mm scanner.
(photography is not my source of income at the moment,that's , a. o.,
documentary and informational films)
Epson launched the C70 and C80 some time ago. I remember discussions on
this list on the C80 but was unable to retrieve it. The C70 is nearly
identical, a bit slower, but the same ink set. The C70 is on sale now,
here in the Netherlands. 
Yes, I know, it's not a dedicated photo printer (neither is the C80) but
I remember some people on the list were quite happy with the C80. If I
start with this unit, I can go on later with a dedicated photo printer,
leaving the office work to the C70/80.
What I want to know primarily is:
Are third party inks / CIS systems available for the C80? 
Do these work also on the C70?
Any other comments or links?
Thanks very much in advance!
Best,
Ton Guiking

Great Inkset. No Greenies. If you like deep blacks, use the MIS VM or FS 
inkset
with the Generations enhanced black ink.  IT is just about the deepest
black ink available.

Jerry

I'm thinking of going this route, since I now have the greenies (haven't
done much printing lately) so must get rid of the Piezography inks. I
have a CIS, but given that I don't do a huge amt. of printing, would
anybody venture a recommendation on whether or not I should just scrap
the CIS and go to carts, or clean out the CIS and go with it? I know
that I'll need to get new prints heads either way, I thnk. 

Barbara  White

Stephen Jennings wrote:
> 
> At the moment I am using MIS-FN ink 
Barbara White Architectural Photography
http://www.barbarawhitephoto.com

I don't know of any third-party inks for the C80. There may be some, I just 
don't know of them.

I have a C80 for general office printing. I've also used it to print b/w 
and color images and it does a respectable job. I usually use black ink 
only for the b/w prints. Up close, you can see the dot pattern with only 
black ink. I did a color image the other night using the Vivid setting and 
it came out nice and punchy (it was a colorful balloon image). I've had 
good results with Epson Archival Matte, Crane's Museo, Concord Rag, and 
Somerset Photo Enhanced Velvet.

Jeff Greer

At 12:19 AM 09/05/2002 +0200, you wrote:

>Hello,
>Great that a thread started about how to enter the realm of digital
>printing. I follow this list's discussions but quite a lot is above my
>head at the moment. One thing I did understand: you have to start
>somewhere.
>Since I am in the market for a new office printer I try to get one that
>will allow me to start printing also photo's. I have quite some
>experience in the B/W wet dark room, have a simple 35 mm scanner.
>(photography is not my source of income at the moment,that's , a. o.,
>documentary and informational films)
>Epson launched the C70 and C80 some time ago. I remember discussions on
>this list on the C80 but was unable to retrieve it. The C70 is nearly
>identical, a bit slower, but the same ink set. The C70 is on sale now,
>here in the Netherlands.
>Yes, I know, it's not a dedicated photo printer (neither is the C80) but
>I remember some people on the list were quite happy with the C80. If I
>start with this unit, I can go on later with a dedicated photo printer,
>leaving the office work to the C70/80.
>What I want to know primarily is:
>Are third party inks / CIS systems available for the C80?
>Do these work also on the C70?
>Any other comments or links?
>Thanks very much in advance!
>Best,
>Ton Guiking
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and 
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>"flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
>resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I've been testing MIS FS inks on a 1280 using the Piezo software. I've been 
pleased with the results on these papers: Crane's Museo, Hahnemuhle German 
Etching and Photo Rag. Images seem to be a bit snappier on German Etching 
compared to Museo but I like the look and feel of Museo and it has better 
archival characteristics than the other two. And prints look good on Epson 
Archival Matter but that paper isn't really archival, hence the new name 
Enhanced Matte.

If you are debating between MIS inks and the new PiezoTones, check out Paul 
Roark's fade test results posted recently on this forum.

I'm on my first set of carts and have run through about 30 8 x 10 prints. 
No problems with microbanding or clogging. I always run a nozzle test 
before printing and only once had to run a cleaning cycle to clear things 
up. The printer usually sits for 4-5 days between printing.

Jeff Greer

At 06:30 PM 09/04/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>As my original Piezography inks begin to run out, I, like many others
>before
>me am faced with a decision of what to buy now. I print with an Epson
>1160
>and a CIS. I have been relatively happy with the old inks, but have
>never
>really been able to get prints through the Piezo driver without some
>microbanding. I have found myself using the Epson driver most often
>and find
>the quality to be nearly as good if not better for my photographs and
>there is
>no microbanding.
>
>I realize this amounts to heresy to many on this list, but I don't
>even really use
>a special workflow ;-)  What looks good on my screen in rgb mode
>generally
>looks good on paper with a few tweaks in Photoshop. Although I've
>never
>suffered from the major "greenies" I do find that on some papers
>there is a
>slight greenish cast to the inks that I don't like.
>
>I admire all of the people on this and other lists who seem to have
>unlimited
>time for testing and re-testing inks and papers and workflows etc.
>With a full
>schedule and a baby on the way, I don't have the time or energy to
>screw
>around any more. I just need to make some prints. I've never once
>printed a
>step wedge or a gray ramp and I'm sure many purists would say my
>prints are
>lacking in tone definition somewhere.  As a people photographer and
>former
>newspaper photojournalist, I like my black and whites to be snappy. A
>little
>compression in some shadows is fine by me.
>
>I tell you all of this not to bore you, but to explain why I don't
>want to get
>sucked into the minutiae of quadtone printing.
>
>So what's my best choice? I certainly like the price of the MIS inks
>and think
>they would probably do the job for me, but I have a couple of
>questions.
>What's the latest real-world experience with fading of these inks? Do
>they
>suffer from the "greenies" either major or minor? Are there any other
>drawbacks?  If I thought that Piezotones would be foolproof, I would
>spend the
>money, but I'm not sure they are worth it until they have been around
>a bit
>longer. I have no interest in shelling out the money for Imageprint
>right now
>either.
>
>Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
>--
>Jeff Thompson Photography
>715.838.9962
>www.jeffthompsonphoto.com
>jeff@...
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and 
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>"flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
>resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Barbara,

I recommend that you reuse your CIS but replace the cartridge portion and
clean out the lines and bottles. The CIS cartridges should be readily
available from several sources.

The MIS-FS is closest in hue to the original Piezo/Sundance inks but keep in
mind that it tends to warm up a great deal. You might find that you like the
Warm Neutral PiezoTones. Perhaps you should clean up your CIS and try some
cartridges with different inks to see which you prefer.

I wouldn't give up on the printer heads until you have given them a try.
That is a pretty expensive repair.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara White" <barbara@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ink decisions


> I'm thinking of going this route, since I now have the greenies (haven't
> done much printing lately) so must get rid of the Piezography inks. I
> have a CIS, but given that I don't do a huge amt. of printing, would
> anybody venture a recommendation on whether or not I should just scrap
> the CIS and go to carts, or clean out the CIS and go with it? I know
> that I'll need to get new prints heads either way, I thnk.
>
> Barbara  White
>
(snip)

Jerry,

Are you using the piezo driver or epson driver with an alternate workflow
when using the inks below? You've used both drivers/methods I presume. A
quick synopsis of the reason for your preference and method would be
appreciated. Also what is your current favorite paper with the inks?

Jamie Gannon
.....................

> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:23:24 -0500
> From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
> Subject: Re: Ink decisions
> 
> Great Inkset. No Greenies. If you like deep blacks, use the MIS VM or FS
> inkset
> with the Generations enhanced black ink.  IT is just about the deepest
> black ink available.
> 
> Jerry

Yes, you are right - it's the cartridges, not the printer heads. Great.

Thanks for your advice.

Barbara

Martin Wesley wrote:

> 

> 
> I wouldn't give up on the printer heads until you have given them a try.
> That is a pretty expensive repair.

Scrap the cis head - the greenies are caused by interaction in the cis - I
know to my cost! You can just get a new cis head, but run a flush cart
through the head to clear any crap there.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara White" <barbara@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ink decisions


> I'm thinking of going this route, since I now have the greenies (haven't
> done much printing lately) so must get rid of the Piezography inks. I
> have a CIS, but given that I don't do a huge amt. of printing, would
> anybody venture a recommendation on whether or not I should just scrap
> the CIS and go to carts, or clean out the CIS and go with it? I know
> that I'll need to get new prints heads either way, I thnk.
>
> Barbara  White
>
> Stephen Jennings wrote:
> >
> > At the moment I am using MIS-FN ink
> Barbara White Architectural Photography
> http://www.barbarawhitephoto.com
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Stephen,

>Has Paul done fade testing on the Generations enhanced black?
>How much higher is the Dmax compared to the MIS black?

A test of the "Indelible" black that included the Gen K is in the Files
section. The Gen k is not as lightfast as the MIS FS/VM K, but it's much
darker -- about 1.82 v. 1.65 (depending on printer).

Many of my tests have black inks in them, but I've never done a single test
with all the best blacks and papers of choice in a single, truly comparable
run of the fader.  So, Robert Morrison is printing abbreviated test strips
(just 100% - 75%) using a number of black inks -- and only black ink -- and
on a number of the best papers.  I'll stick all 12 of these combinations in
the fader at once so that we can eliminate the extraneous variables that
might affect comparisons of one fader run to another.

So, we'll have some much more accurate and comparable results in the
not-too-distant future.

That said, my impression from the various tests I've run is that, on EAM,
Gen K is the best choice for those who really want a deeper black than the
MIS VM/FS K can make.  (Note that paper choice can affect the depth of
blacks substantially.)  The Gen K, with it's 25% dye, will definitely fade
and warm more, but if deep black is more important to you than light
fastness, it is a good option to try.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Barbara,

Before replacing your heads, have you tried running the Epson ink through
them?  This always worked me.  I'd load the carts and run them for a week or
so to clean everything out.  Seemed to me that leaving them in for a while
worked better than simply running a lot of ink thru them quickly.  I'd then
purge with a cleaning cart and load the MIS-FN.  This may not always be
necessary once you get things going.  I developed banding and clogging with
the original Piezo ink, used the technique described above and then switched
to MIS-FN for quite  a while.  When the Piezotones came out I tried them,
developed banding after the second cart, ran a cleaning cart cycle and
replaced with MIS-FN again.  Still working fine.

  S T E P H E N   J E N N I N G S
            P h o t o g r a p h e r
    Cambridge, MA 02138-3960
       sgjennin@...
http://www.stephenjennings.com

> From: Barbara White <barbara@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 16:39:34 -0700
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ink decisions
> 
> I'm thinking of going this route, since I now have the greenies (haven't
> done much printing lately) so must get rid of the Piezography inks. I
> have a CIS, but given that I don't do a huge amt. of printing, would
> anybody venture a recommendation on whether or not I should just scrap
> the CIS and go to carts, or clean out the CIS and go with it? I know
> that I'll need to get new prints heads either way, I thnk.
> 
> Barbara  White
> 
> Stephen Jennings wrote:
>> 
>> At the moment I am using MIS-FN ink
> Barbara White Architectural Photography
> http://www.barbarawhitephoto.com
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>