Digital BW, The Print

Richard, you wrote:

> My ink set is formulated from Generations 3 and 4 materials; Gen4 for
> the black for max density, and dilutions of Gen3 (pure pigment) black
> tinted with tiny bits of Gen4 C+M for cold grays and M+Y for warm grays.

What medium is used for diluting the Gen 3 inks? Is it the Jet Jrano
cleaning fluid ?

Ernst

Richard, How did you get that deep black ink? Details !! I've been
looking for a deeper black ink since I began digital printing 6 years
ago. 

Jerry

Richard Wolfson wrote:

> 
> List members in the Boston area may be interested in a show of 17
> digitally printed b&w landscape photographs at the Depot Square Gallery
> in Lexington MA now to September 29, and are invited to a reception
> Thursday, September 12, 5 - 8 PM. More info at:
> 
> www.lyricdesign.com/dsg/neweyes
> 
> Of 17 prints on display, about half are from Yosemite and half from New
> England, mostly the Maine coast. All are shot on 4x5 film, scanned on an
> Agfa Duoscan T2500, edited in Photoshop, and printed thru a RIP on my
> Epson 7000 on a microporous luster paper using my own six-tone pigment
> inkset with both warm and cool grays. These prints show split tones like
> platinum-palladium, but with a much blacker black (Dmax > 2.5 measured
> with my DTP-41) that I think gives me remarkable shadow detail.
> 
> I plan to post the show images on a web page soon; I can post the url
> once I have done that.
> 
> Richard Wolfson
> Harvard, MA
> richard at rwolfson dot com
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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Richard,

Congratulations on the show. Very nice shot!

Would you share the details of your inks, papers and workflow?

Thanks,
Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Wolfson" <richard@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 8:15 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] digital b&w show in Boston gallery


> List members in the Boston area may be interested in a show of 17
> digitally printed b&w landscape photographs at the Depot Square Gallery
> in Lexington MA now to September 29, and are invited to a reception
> Thursday, September 12, 5 - 8 PM. More info at:
>
> www.lyricdesign.com/dsg/neweyes
>
> Of 17 prints on display, about half are from Yosemite and half from New
> England, mostly the Maine coast. All are shot on 4x5 film, scanned on an
> Agfa Duoscan T2500, edited in Photoshop, and printed thru a RIP on my
> Epson 7000 on a microporous luster paper using my own six-tone pigment
> inkset with both warm and cool grays. These prints show split tones like
> platinum-palladium, but with a much blacker black (Dmax > 2.5 measured
> with my DTP-41) that I think gives me remarkable shadow detail.
>
> I plan to post the show images on a web page soon; I can post the url
> once I have done that.
>
> Richard Wolfson
> Harvard, MA
> richard at rwolfson dot com
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> Richard, How did you get that deep black ink? Details !! I've been
> looking for a deeper black ink since I began digital printing 6 years
> ago. 
> 
> Jerry

Jerry,

I think you simply need a darker cat to take pictures of ;-)

Austin

Have 3 now, a fourth would eat us out of house and home.

Hope to see a 2.5 D Max black ink soon. I'd have to reprint everything!

Jerry

Austin Franklin wrote:

> 
> > Richard, How did you get that deep black ink? Details !! I've been
> > looking for a deeper black ink since I began digital printing 6 years
> > ago.
> >
> > Jerry
> 
> Jerry,
> 
> I think you simply need a darker cat to take pictures of ;-)
> 
> Austin
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Jerry,

Hum, a cat person...well, that explains a lot ;-) (just kidding, Jerry, I
know how serious some cat people take their cats...I've had many cats...and
am harboring a stray right now).

Have you measured the density of your cats?

Austin

> Have 3 now, a fourth would eat us out of house and home.
>
> Hope to see a 2.5 D Max black ink soon. I'd have to reprint everything!
>
> Jerry
>
> Austin Franklin wrote:
> >
> > > Richard, How did you get that deep black ink? Details !! I've been
> > > looking for a deeper black ink since I began digital printing 6 years
> > > ago.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> >
> > Jerry,
> >
> > I think you simply need a darker cat to take pictures of ;-)
> >
> > Austin

Austin, Once had a Black cat with a density D Max of 4.8.  That was in a
coal bin and the lights were off.

Well, Of COURSE I'm a cat person. Aren't we all?  Ok, I acknowledge the
fact that someone may like dogs better. Barely.

Jerry

Austin Franklin wrote:

> 
> Hi Jerry,
> 
> Hum, a cat person...well, that explains a lot ;-) (just kidding, Jerry, I
> know how serious some cat people take their cats...I've had many cats...and
> am harboring a stray right now).
> 
> Have you measured the density of your cats?
> 
> Austin
>

Jerry, I can't help with cat questions, but I can tell you about my
workflow for b&w printmaking. The paper I'm using is Media Street's
"Generations ProPhoto Lustre" which is an RC paper with a microporous
ink receptor coating that holds a LOT of ink.

My ink set is formulated from Generations 3 and 4 materials; Gen4 for
the black for max density, and dilutions of Gen3 (pure pigment) black
tinted with tiny bits of Gen4 C+M for cold grays and M+Y for warm grays.
That these inks work with the lustre paper defies common practice, but
they do. The prints need to dry for 24 hours or so, and the surface
remains fragile. I frame and mat the prints behind glass.

I print in CMYK mode with a RIP that has very sophisiticated ink
controls, and I've calibrated the system with a spectrophotometer. I use
custom dot gain curves to preview the grayscale images, and custom
spectrophotometer-based CMYK profiles to preview the color separations
(they're b&w images, but the subtle color splits of the ink set are
important). I do 4 channel separations in Photoshop, using saved curves;
the RIP separates the Cc and Mm split-channels, but I've customized the
crossover curves the RIP uses for that, too.

It took me a couple years to make all this work. I don't talk about it
much at the gallery, lest I be banished as a terminal geek. <g> I have
not yet figured out a way to set other people up with my process; so
far, no one has been all that interested.

Richard Wolfson
Harvard, MA
richard at rwolfson dot com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...] 
> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:12 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital b&w show in Boston gallery
> 
> 
> Richard, How did you get that deep black ink? Details !! I've 
> been looking for a deeper black ink since I began digital 
> printing 6 years ago. 
> 
> Jerry
> 
> Richard Wolfson wrote:
> > 
> > List members in the Boston area may be interested in a show of 17 
> > digitally printed b&w landscape photographs at the Depot Square 
> > Gallery in Lexington MA now to September 29, and are invited to a 
> > reception Thursday, September 12, 5 - 8 PM. More info at:
> > 
> > www.lyricdesign.com/dsg/neweyes
> >

In a message dated 9/5/02 12:48:05 PM, darkroom@... writes:

>Have you measured the density of your cats?
 
Doing this accurately requires the use of a caterimeter, or ideally a 
spectrocaterimeter; a dogatometer is not calibrated properly, and will read 
out in the wrong units.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

Wrong units are no problem: you can convert in Photoshop, by applying a
catenary curve. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CDTobie@... [mailto:CDTobie@...] 
> 
> In a message dated 9/5/02 12:48:05 PM, darkroom@ix.netcom.com writes:
> 
> >Have you measured the density of your cats?
>  
> Doing this accurately requires the use of a caterimeter, or ideally a 
> spectrocaterimeter; a dogatometer is not calibrated properly, 
> and will read out in the wrong units.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Design Cooperative
> CDTobie@...

> >Have you measured the density of your cats?
>
> Doing this accurately requires the use of a caterimeter, or ideally a
> spectrocaterimeter; a dogatometer is not calibrated properly, and
> will read
> out in the wrong units.

Ah, hell no!  I just stuff them under the arm of my X-Rite 810, and
press...yeah, I wear gloves, and there's a LITTLE screaming (from both the
cat and my self), but it's over pretty quickly.

Austin

In a message dated 9/5/02 2:58:18 PM, richard@... writes:

>Wrong units are no problem: you can convert in Photoshop, by applying a
>catenary curve. 

Converting in the other direction, of course, is a dogarithmic function...

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

Richard,

If you would be willing to put your workflow down on paper, so to speak, ink
dilutions and blends, brand of RIP, separation curves, etc. I would be very
happy to post it all in the Files section of the list. I really want to
compile as many of the alternate workflows as possible. While you are rare
in your use of a RIP and CMYK separation curves you are not alone. What you
are doing with the curves and the inks is sort of the path of ultimate
control over your output.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Wolfson" <richard@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 11:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] digital b&w show in Boston gallery


> Jerry, I can't help with cat questions, but I can tell you about my
> workflow for b&w printmaking. The paper I'm using is Media Street's
> "Generations ProPhoto Lustre" which is an RC paper with a microporous
> ink receptor coating that holds a LOT of ink.
>
> My ink set is formulated from Generations 3 and 4 materials; Gen4 for
> the black for max density, and dilutions of Gen3 (pure pigment) black
> tinted with tiny bits of Gen4 C+M for cold grays and M+Y for warm grays.
> That these inks work with the lustre paper defies common practice, but
> they do. The prints need to dry for 24 hours or so, and the surface
> remains fragile. I frame and mat the prints behind glass.
>
> I print in CMYK mode with a RIP that has very sophisiticated ink
> controls, and I've calibrated the system with a spectrophotometer. I use
> custom dot gain curves to preview the grayscale images, and custom
> spectrophotometer-based CMYK profiles to preview the color separations
> (they're b&w images, but the subtle color splits of the ink set are
> important). I do 4 channel separations in Photoshop, using saved curves;
> the RIP separates the Cc and Mm split-channels, but I've customized the
> crossover curves the RIP uses for that, too.
>
> It took me a couple years to make all this work. I don't talk about it
> much at the gallery, lest I be banished as a terminal geek. <g> I have
> not yet figured out a way to set other people up with my process; so
> far, no one has been all that interested.
>
> Richard Wolfson
> Harvard, MA
> richard at rwolfson dot com
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:12 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital b&w show in Boston gallery
> >
> >
> > Richard, How did you get that deep black ink? Details !! I've
> > been looking for a deeper black ink since I began digital
> > printing 6 years ago.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Richard Wolfson wrote:
> > >
> > > List members in the Boston area may be interested in a show of 17
> > > digitally printed b&w landscape photographs at the Depot Square
> > > Gallery in Lexington MA now to September 29, and are invited to a
> > > reception Thursday, September 12, 5 - 8 PM. More info at:
> > >
> > > www.lyricdesign.com/dsg/neweyes
> > >
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

In a message dated 9/5/02 3:50:23 PM, mwesley250@... writes:

>What you
>are doing with the curves and the inks is sort of the path of ultimate
>control over your output.

That was certainly the theory, and the Wolfson print on my livingroom wall 
supports that theory nicely. <G>

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

> What medium is used for diluting the Gen 3 inks? Is it the 
> Jet Jrano cleaning fluid ?

Yes. That's what Norm says to use.

Richard Wolfson

Thanks Richard.

Your methods are far beyond my knowledge, and I don't like photo luster
paper at all. I'll just stick with the MIS VM inks and Generations enhanced
black.

Jerry

This sentence requires a multisyllabaic pluperfect subjunction and a split
infinityhair to make sense.

Jerry

>> Wrong units are no problem: you can convert in Photoshop, by applying a
>> catenary curve. 
> 
> Converting in the other direction, of course, is a dogarithmic function...
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Design Cooperative
> CDTobie@...
>

There's another option; you can use a catalog.

> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]  
> 
> This sentence requires a multisyllabaic pluperfect 
> subjunction and a split infinityhair to make sense.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> >> Wrong units are no problem: you can convert in Photoshop, 
> by applying 
> >> a catenary curve.
> > 
> > Converting in the other direction, of course, is a dogarithmic 
> > function...
> > 
> > C. David Tobie
> > Design Cooperative
> > CDTobie@...
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now 
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA> /ucIolB/TM
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------~->
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
> Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being 
> updated. The page is at:
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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same page.

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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No argument: that's the tradeoff. The highest Dmax I've ever seen with
any "fine art" style paper (i.e., matte) is around 1.75. And for sure,
the lustre paper is feels like plastic, not rich and satisfying like a
lovely ink jet coated watercolor paper.

On the other hand, once either paper is behind glass, you can't feel it,
and the images on the luster paper with Dmax 2.5 have a
knock-your-socks-off dynamic range, with shadow detail you have to see
to believe.

Richard Wolfson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...] 
> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 6:49 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital b&w show in Boston gallery
> 
> 
> Thanks Richard.
> 
> ... I don't like 
> photo luster paper at all. I'll just stick with the MIS VM 
> inks and Generations enhanced black.
> 
> Jerry

That may be true, but I print thousands of prints a year, and I could
never afford to put them behind glass!

Jerry

Richard Wolfson wrote:

> 
> No argument: that's the tradeoff. The highest Dmax I've ever seen with
> any "fine art" style paper (i.e., matte) is around 1.75. And for sure,
> the lustre paper is feels like plastic, not rich and satisfying like a
> lovely ink jet coated watercolor paper.
> 
> On the other hand, once either paper is behind glass, you can't feel it,
> and the images on the luster paper with Dmax 2.5 have a
> knock-your-socks-off dynamic range, with shadow detail you have to see
> to believe.
> 
> Richard Wolfson
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 6:49 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital b&w show in Boston gallery
> >
> >
> > Thanks Richard.
> >
> > ... I don't like
> > photo luster paper at all. I'll just stick with the MIS VM
> > inks and Generations enhanced black.
> >
> > Jerry
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Shirley, you jest! My cat read your reply and demanded a tummy rub.

jerry


Richard Wolfson wrote:

> 
> Wrong units are no problem: you can convert in Photoshop, by applying a
> catenary curve.
>

Ok, is this what is meant by the term,
'Color Geek'?

         ;>)
-JimD


At 02:49 PM 9/5/2002 -0400, CDTobie@... wrote:

>In a message dated 9/5/02 12:48:05 PM, darkroom@... writes:
>
> >Have you measured the density of your cats?
>
>Doing this accurately requires the use of a caterimeter, or ideally a
>spectrocaterimeter; a dogatometer is not calibrated properly, and will read
>out in the wrong units.
>
>C. David Tobie
>Design Cooperative
>CDTobie@...

Are you spraying? Or are you putting straight behind glass? If so, How do
you show your portfolio? I've been playing with semimatte papers too.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Wolfson" <richard@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 2:59 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] digital b&w show in Boston gallery


> No argument: that's the tradeoff. The highest Dmax I've ever seen with
> any "fine art" style paper (i.e., matte) is around 1.75. And for sure,
> the lustre paper is feels like plastic, not rich and satisfying like a
> lovely ink jet coated watercolor paper.
>
> On the other hand, once either paper is behind glass, you can't feel it,
> and the images on the luster paper with Dmax 2.5 have a
> knock-your-socks-off dynamic range, with shadow detail you have to see
> to believe.
>
> Richard Wolfson
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 6:49 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital b&w show in Boston gallery
> >
> >
> > Thanks Richard.
> >
> > ... I don't like
> > photo luster paper at all. I'll just stick with the MIS VM
> > inks and Generations enhanced black.
> >
> > Jerry
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Don't you mean a catadog?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Wolfson" <richard@...>


> There's another option; you can use a catalog.