Digital BW, The Print

From: "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 1:00 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re:EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


>
> > We have long known that carbon pigment inks warm even in the absence of
> > light. It is probably an oxidation reaction and this is may be the
advantage
> > of the Epson encapsulated inks.
>
> Martin,
>
> I have just looked at an EAM and a German Etching print of the same image
> which were kept in the dark. The "browning" out did not happen. These were
> letter size proofs of work in progress, with similar "black" areas,
printed at the
> same time as the big prints. I believe the reaction of the black Piezotone
ink is
> related to exposure to light and possibly air. The dark-stored prints were
also
> kept in a plastic bag (the kind that comes with EAM).

Interesting information. The original Piezo/Sundance inks does warm even if
left in a box but is very paper dependent. We just don't know enough about
the chemistry of these inks to be able to know what is going on but light is
obviously a trigger. Didn't you stick a PT print in a window at one point or
am I thinking of someone else?
>
> I have a 2200 on order and am looking forward to using it with the
ImagePrint
> driver when released. Then I can compare the encapsulated inks directly
with
> the quads.

I definitely look forward to hearing your impressions.
>
> >
> > Paul sent me some scans of wedges Robert printed with the PT-K replaced
> with
> > the FS-K which looked pretty good, although it is hard to tell from
scans of
> > wedges. I hope to hand load some cartridges next week and see how it
> looks.
> > I was willing to stay with the existing Sel-PT and take my chances
because I
> > like the look so much but this abrupt failure gives me second thoughts.
>
> According to Robert, FS-K works well with EAM and Hahnemuhle, but Museo
> likes the MIS-DD black. This as far as dmax goes - fades are another
story.
> Incidentally, I printed some grayscales using each individual ink/nozzle
to
> print the whole scale. I did this with WT-PT and the color of the black is
very
> startling next to the grays. Looks like a whole other animal. Who knows
what
> kind of thinking is behind using this same black for all flavors of PT.
Looks to
> me like they needed the money before they finished the R&D....

The PT-K is red-warm from my measurements and unfortunately that may be key
to the "look" of the Sel-PT ink set. I will be interested to see how the
overall hue changes with a different black. Were all of these prints from
the same batch of black?
>
> >
> > BTW, what were the temperatures where the prints were stored while you
> were
> > gone? Robert and I have theorized that Paul's fader which has lower
light
> > levels than the commercial faders but much higher temperatures is
> revealing
> > flaws not seen in say RIT testing where there is strict temperature
control.
>
> This is a room that warms up in the late afternoon, as all Spanish-style
houses
> do in Southern Cal., but we enjoy relatively low humidity. In any case, I
don't
> think there were any particular extremes during July and August that would
> cause unusual degradation. This isn't an attic or a basement, just your
basic
> living room.

Well that doesn't sound like a torture test.
>
> So, as long as we keep our prints carefully sealed in bags in a dark
drawer,
> all is well with the PiezoTones!!
>
> But seriously, have you left any PT prints with lots of black, printed on
> Hahnemuhle papers out in the air and light (for longer that 2 months)?

Well my work prints tend to drift around the house a bit but they don't get
any direct sunlight and only minimal indirect. Tend to float to the bottom
of the pile and be covered. The finish prints go into plastic sleeves open
at both ends and are in stacks or in boxes. So far I have not noticed any
problems but I am rather nervous at this point. If the Sel-PT with the FS-K
looks good I will be playing it safe and going in that direction. Paul's
fade test still show the FS-K to be the best of the 3rd party inks in terms
of warm/fade.

Martin

From: "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 3:59 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re:EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
>
> The original Piezo/Sundance inks does warm even if
> > left in a box but is very paper dependent.
>
>
> Martin,
>
> keep in mind that I am not complaining about "fade" or "warming" overall,
> which we have learned to live with. It's this nasty separation of just the
black
> ink going brown and lighter than surrounding tones that makes the whole
print
> ready for the trash.
>
> Admittedly, hanging uncoated, unframed prints is supposedly against
archival
> procedure and hence really meant as an "edurance test". But with the
> Sundance inks, I have prints left exposed to the elements for over a year
and
> they have warmed and (I am sensing) faded a bit, but never separated into
> this solarized look.  And it only took 2 months for it to happen with the
PTs.

Antonis,

I think we have had similar experiences. I have original Piezo prints that
are 18 months old that look fine. There are a couple on papers like H.
Torchon that have warmed to the point of orange. All of these were in low
light situations. Overall if there was any fade it seemed consistent across
the tonal range so that the it is not apparent. The PiezoTones have the
highest marks to date for the gray inks in the mid tones of any of the
carbon pigment ink sets. So they are not to be forgotten but rather fixed.
>
> Didn't you stick a PT print in a window at one point or
> > am I thinking of someone else?
>
> Yes I did and still do and took another look today: I don't see the same
> bronzing out I saw in the big prints. The areas of black are small but
don't
> seem affected. This was a print from an 1160 made with beta carts of WT-PT
> on EAM and exposed to similar light as the big prints - in fact for much
longer.
> They were printed using the piezo plug-in.

Well this should be driver independent. Same paper? Same paper lot? Is there
any chance that the 7000 laid down so much ink down there was excess sitting
on the surface?
>
> Could there be something else going on? The 7000 prints used sealed 7000
> carts bought from inkjetmall. All of them exhibit the same bronzing out,
there is
> no difference from early to later prints. The printer was flushed using
flush
> carts also from IJM - everything was done by the book. Do we have a bad
> batch theory here?

Well the "bad batch" theory" is a valid one and we have seen batch problems
before with all the ink manufacturers. What concerns me is this failure is
exactly along the lines suggested by Paul's fade testing. The black warms
and fades much faster than the grays resulting in an unpleasant color
crossover and tonal posterization in the deep shadow tones around 80-85%.
Although the effect did not look as unpleasant in the scans of the WN-PT as
it did with the Sel-PT.
>
(snip)

>
> If the Sel-PT with the FS-K
> > looks good I will be playing it safe and going in that direction. Paul's
> > fade test still show the FS-K to be the best of the 3rd party inks in
terms
> > of warm/fade.
>
> I think I will need to test that combo immediately and send the PT black
carts
> and bottles back to IJM for refund. Too bad; I had high hopes - despite
the
> early warnings from Paul - about the PTs.

Robert has already tried this and sent wedges to Paul on both EAM and Photo
Rag. These look pretty comparable. I have posted Paul's scan of the wedges
in folder:

Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones

I have just finished loading some Sel-PT grays and the MIS-FSN into
cartridges. After I have printed some wedges and test prints I will post my
impressions and some spectrophotometer readings.
>
> Too good to be true, I guess.

Well I still like the hue of the Sel-PT over anything else and the midtone
warm/fade is still tops, so at least that part is right. The black issue
hopefully will not be too hard to fix. I heard a rumor to the effect that
ConeTech was considering offering an alternative black without the "dye
stuff". If there is any truth to this, then the fix may be at hand already.

Martin