Digital BW, The Print

Steve,

>My first question, maybe its a dumb one, but, If your comparing black ink
>only and have black ink only selected in the driver why would you run a
curve
>on the file before printing? Or did you?

The comparison, which you quoted below, was of VM black only with the FULL
variable-tone VM inkset. My point was that I don't think the black-only
approach gives one a perfectly neutral print.

>I have Vm black loaded in my 7000 and On Jazz paper, piezo black makes this
>black look faded!

Maybe Mike Kravit can answer you.  He has the MIS VM inkset running on a
7000 and is very familiar with Piezo also.  (He is probably busy moving now,
however.)

Have you given your black ink the sniff test.  The VM black should smell
just like your Piezo black, and very differently (and much more) than the
MIS standard quad black or VM midtones.  If you do not smell the solvent,
you probably have the wrong black ink.

>...Are MIS inks compatible with Piezo inks?

I've changed inks many times with never a flush used and have never had a
serious clog.  So, I'd say they are compatible.

...

In a message dated 09/05/2001 5:27:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
paul.roark@... writes:

<< There have been several comments about how neutral the black-ink-only
printing is.  However, according to my scanner, (and eyes) the MIS VM black
is not entirely neutral (at least on EAM), it's medium warm with a touch of
green.

Comparing essentially same-density areas (about 50%) of a VM black-only test
strip to the full MIS VM (variable-tone) inkset, both on EAM, these are the
RGB readings I get:

VM Black-only RGB = 121/123/117.

MIS VM (variable-tone vmq-mw curve on 1160) RGB = 125/125/121 >>

Tyler wrote:

>...Any comments about the "double density" ink would be apreciated also.

I tested some for the variable-tone inkset and found it to be very weird.
It looked fairly dark -- between Piezo and old MIS, I think -- on EAM.
However, it really blocked up the dark tones.  It didn't act like any other
ink I tested.  I don't know what it was about it, but it just did not print
on the paper the same as the other inks.  It was not a solvent based ink
like Piezo or MIS VM/FS.

So, if Steve has the "Double Density" ink, I would not be at all surprised
if he got weird results.

(Note that the DD ink MIS is now selling is totally different than the DD
ink that they sold or supplied for a very short time to some who were
experimenting with inks.  For a while, about 3-4 months ago, MIS was using
the "DD" label for a previous batch of solvent based ink similar to Piezo
and VM/FS black ink.)

Paul

In a message dated 09/05/2001 9:08:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
paul.roark@... writes:

<< The comparison, which you quoted below, was of VM black only with the FULL
 variable-tone VM inkset. My point was that I don't think the black-only
 approach gives one a perfectly neutral print. >>

Yes I did get your point clearly, but here again you mention The Full 
Variable tone inkset was used? Why mention this when evaluating the VM black 
only? The rest of the inks aren't part of the test are they?  Its a black ink 
only test!
My brain is mush and I'm just trying to understand what people might be doing 
that I'm not. I'm looking at over two weeks of testing as well as a good pile 
of hours from Tyler Just to discover My black inks is probably MIS Labeled.
I Thought my vm-4k black smelled of solvent but just now I pulled some piezo 
ink out of a cart and the piezo ink was much much stronger smelling. Calls to 
MIS resulted in failure again. I asked for the stinky version of the black 
ink and there sending Double Density as they thought I wanted blacker blacks. 
I just want blacks equal to piezo! The piezo clone! I will be ordering the 
full spectrum Black as a back up.
At this point a replacement ink will fix the problem or not,  and I'm only 
out 80 hr. and 2 carts of 7000 inks and the paper to go with it. All this to 
save the expense of the Piezo pro 7000 driver.
I decided at the start to take some risk and try the MIS inks first, I hope I 
haven't gambled and lost! I'm not even that picky I just have to have equal 
Piezo quality and if the next black I try doesn't fix my black issue then I 
won't even try the VM hex set I have sitting here! Thats the set I got the 
black from!   2200.00 for the inks and Piezo Pro 24 driver is a big number 
but its looking like a bargain. 
I did do some swabs of the MIS ink set. The 100% VM -4K looks exactly like 
the 75% ink to me.
I am optimistic though.
Steve Meyers

Steve,

I have some Frankfurt paper, which I believe is the same as orwell or Royal plush. Many people have said they are identical, but I don't
know for certain. Only what I hear. I can run a print with the coldtone VM inks on it and let you know how the blacks are.

So far, the blackest black I can get on inkjet papers are:

1. VM black only ink on Epson Archival paper. REALLY black. (only good for prints with lots of texture and no smooth gray areas. The black
is deeper than when you print the same print using all inks.

2. MIS VM hextone inkset on Torchon Paper

3. MIS VM hextone inkset on Epson Arvhival Paper.

Haven't tried the cold tone MIS on the Frankfurt yet. I only have a couple sheets left, but will run a print if you like.

Jerry

Martin, I accidentally printed a piezo print yesterday (regular piezo inks) with the epson driver instead of the piezo driver. Just forgot
to choose the export module, and it printed with the epson driver.

The piezo black ink printed considerably darker with the epson driver than with the piezo driver. For this print, the epson driver gave a
much more pleasing print.

Weird.

Jerry



> All this seems to confirm earlier reports that the Piezo and MIS VM
> blacks are very similar. Also confirms that the Piezo inks are
> capable of deeper blacks than the Piezo driver produces.

Yes, That was proven to me yesterday.

Jerry

>

Jerry - a suggestion for why this may be the case...

When printing dark blacks or greys, I believe the Epson driver uses all four
colours CMYK (don't know what it does with the 'photo' colours  on a Photo
printer... but this would suggest that 'blacks will end up getting printed
with all three greys + black on top of each other... Piezo driver will print
Black only, or black + darkest grey.

Just a guess.

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> Sent: 06 September 2001 16:34
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Black comparison MIS / piezo (was black
> only 2880)
>
>
> Martin, I accidentally printed a piezo print yesterday (regular
> piezo inks) with the epson driver instead of the piezo driver. Just forgot
> to choose the export module, and it printed with the epson driver.
>
> The piezo black ink printed considerably darker with the epson
> driver than with the piezo driver. For this print, the epson driver gave a
> much more pleasing print.
>
> Weird.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> > All this seems to confirm earlier reports that the Piezo and MIS VM
> > blacks are very similar. Also confirms that the Piezo inks are
> > capable of deeper blacks than the Piezo driver produces.
>
> Yes, That was proven to me yesterday.
>
> Jerry

Nij,

When I printed out my 100% black squares with the Piezo inks I first 
exported through the Piezo driver and then, on the second one, used 
the Epson drive but selected "Black Only" in the driver options. I 
believe that in this mode the Epson uses just the black ink cartridge.

Also if you run all four inks into the black area I would expect a 
lighter result since you are diluting the pure black with lighter 
shades or because the lighter inks wind up on top of the darker ones. 
What I saw on the squares looked like a dusting of lighter ink on top 
of the black ink.

This is very easy to do and you can see for yourself.

In any case, it does suggest that it might be possible to adjust the 
Piezo driver to deliver just the black ink at the 100% level to 
increase the Dmax slightly. I don't think we are talking about a big 
difference here and there may be other tonal trade offs which are 
less desirable. 

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Jerry - a suggestion for why this may be the case...
> 
> When printing dark blacks or greys, I believe the Epson driver uses 
all four
> colours CMYK (don't know what it does with the 'photo' colours  on 
a Photo
> printer... but this would suggest that 'blacks will end up getting 
printed
> with all three greys + black on top of each other... Piezo driver 
will print
> Black only, or black + darkest grey.
> 
> Just a guess.
> 
> Nij
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@r...]
> > Sent: 06 September 2001 16:34
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Black comparison MIS / piezo (was 
black
> > only 2880)
> >
> >
> > Martin, I accidentally printed a piezo print yesterday (regular
> > piezo inks) with the epson driver instead of the piezo driver. 
Just forgot
> > to choose the export module, and it printed with the epson driver.
> >
> > The piezo black ink printed considerably darker with the epson
> > driver than with the piezo driver. For this print, the epson 
driver gave a
> > much more pleasing print.
> >
> > Weird.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > > All this seems to confirm earlier reports that the Piezo and 
MIS VM

> > > blacks are very similar. Also confirms that the Piezo inks are
> > > capable of deeper blacks than the Piezo driver produces.
> >
> > Yes, That was proven to me yesterday.
> >
> > Jerry

The Epson driver removes all CMY from 100%K, there's no way around it. I suspect the Piezo driver does too. The Epson 
driver begins replacing CMY values with K ink some where around 80%, and has removed it all by 100%.
The only way to print any cmy at all at 100%K is with a RIP.
It's commonly referred to as a "rich" black.
Generally not lighter than 100%K only, but depends on the specific ink, paper, and percentages.
It's usefullness varys.
Tyler

Martin,

Answered interspersed with your text...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
> Nij,
>
> When I printed out my 100% black squares with the Piezo inks I first
> exported through the Piezo driver and then, on the second one, used
> the Epson drive but selected "Black Only" in the driver options. I
> believe that in this mode the Epson uses just the black ink cartridge.

Gosh - I just knew you were going to say that! After what I said :)

>
> Also if you run all four inks into the black area I would expect a
> lighter result since you are diluting the pure black with lighter
> shades or because the lighter inks wind up on top of the darker ones.
> What I saw on the squares looked like a dusting of lighter ink on top
> of the black ink.

I would have thought the opposite! I can see that you did test this, and
have seen it to be the case... but I would have thought that diluted pigment
on top of pigment would end up as being pigment on pigment (once the carrier
had dried off) - ie the equivalent of printing the sheet twice as has been
discussed recently. Perhaps, though, what you see is the small dye component
of the ink. Intriguing.

> This is very easy to do and you can see for yourself.
>
> In any case, it does suggest that it might be possible to adjust the
> Piezo driver to deliver just the black ink at the 100% level to
> increase the Dmax slightly. I don't think we are talking about a big
> difference here and there may be other tonal trade offs which are
> less desirable.

Have you tried the gamma settings in the driver? I have not... so can not
advise on the results.

Nij

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> Answered interspersed with your text...

Ditto.
> 
(snip)
> >
> > Also if you run all four inks into the black area I would expect a
> > lighter result since you are diluting the pure black with lighter
> > shades or because the lighter inks wind up on top of the darker 
ones.
> > What I saw on the squares looked like a dusting of lighter ink on 
top
> > of the black ink.
> 
> I would have thought the opposite! I can see that you did test 
this, and
> have seen it to be the case... but I would have thought that 
diluted pigment
> on top of pigment would end up as being pigment on pigment (once 
the carrier
> had dried off) - ie the equivalent of printing the sheet twice as 
has been
> discussed recently. Perhaps, though, what you see is the small dye 
component
> of the ink. Intriguing.

My thoughts follow yours and if the inks were just dilutions of the 
same black base you should get an additive result. So either there 
are some lighter pigments in the other inks or we are seeing a 
situation where the ink is perhaps laid down or dries differently 
resulting in a more matte finish. In any case maybe Jon can take a 
look at this in the next generation of inks.
> 
> > This is very easy to do and you can see for yourself.
> >
> > In any case, it does suggest that it might be possible to adjust 
the
> > Piezo driver to deliver just the black ink at the 100% level to
> > increase the Dmax slightly. I don't think we are talking about a 
big
> > difference here and there may be other tonal trade offs which are
> > less desirable.
> 
> Have you tried the gamma settings in the driver? I have not... so 
can not
> advise on the results.

I have played with the gamma settings once trying to create a profile 
for the Eclipse Satine paper. I used the "Unsupported" profile and 
set the Gamma to about .93 and the Dot Density to 104%. These small 
changes in value have huge changes in the print. For this paper I 
need more of both to build the blacks but was already pushing into a 
posterizing situation so the paper needs some sort of additional 
curve.

My impression is that the Dot Density increases ink loading and Dmax 
and the Gamma moves the midtones around.

Martin