Digital BW, The Print

In Jon Cone's new blacks announcement, he said:

> When we analyzed MIS-FSN by thin layer chromaticity testing it revealed
10%
> AZO dyes and this would account for the 3.5 - 5.8% fades in Roark's tests.

Yet on the MIS website, the quadtone inks are described as "Pure Carbon,
100% Pigmented Inks". Obviously, someone's fibbing here.

Comments anyone?

The FS inks was essentially the same as the Sundance Neutral-Warm (PiezoBW)
ink.  They both contain dyes to try to shift the color...but of course it
didn't work and that's why they warm shifted.  I believe that the black in
both ink sets was supposed to be 100% pigment...although I'm not sure.  My
understanding is that the MIS FS-N set was 100% pigment...at least it was
toned with pigment like the Piezotone grays.  Now its possible that the MIS
black does have some dye...so that when it is thinned to make the other
grays there is still a potential for color shift...this would explain why
the Selenium Piezotone grays are more stable than the MIS FSN grays.  The
only thing that is for sure these days...is...lies...lies...lies....

Robert

On 10/3/02 7:24 PM, "Moreno Polloni" <mp@...> wrote:

> In Jon Cone's new blacks announcement, he said:
> 
>> When we analyzed MIS-FSN by thin layer chromaticity testing it revealed
> 10%
>> AZO dyes and this would account for the 3.5 - 5.8% fades in Roark's tests.
> 
> Yet on the MIS website, the quadtone inks are described as "Pure Carbon,
> 100% Pigmented Inks". Obviously, someone's fibbing here.
> 
> Comments anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> 
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>In Jon Cone's new blacks announcement, he said:

>> We introduced PiezoTone black because we were under
>>the impression that the
>> majority of our users wanted a black which approached
>>silver print ...

>> At the time it was not possible to produce from 100%
>>pigment a black which was dark enough.
>
>> When we analyzed MIS-FSN by thin layer chromaticity testing
>>it revealed 10%
>> AZO dyes and this would account for the 3.5 - 5.8%
>>fades in Roark's tests.
>
>> We gave our chemists the task of finding a way to make
>>Carbon black denser in Optical Desnity. We wanted a black
>>at least as black as the MIS-FSN ...

>Yet on the MIS website, the quadtone inks are described as "Pure Carbon,
>100% Pigmented Inks". Obviously, someone's fibbing here.

I think the context of the discussion is black inks and the fact that pure
carbon in suspension cannot match the depth of black of a silver print.  As
such, most of the really black inks have a lot of dye in them.

My understanding is that all of the pigment black inks are carbon that is
coated with a black colorant -- just like the midtones of the color
pigments.  I don't know whether this colorant should be called a "dye" or
not.  I have gotten the impression that some ink chemists do consider them
dyes.  In my view, the colorant is attached to a solid particle and is not
dissolved.  So, it probably should not be called a "dye."

The next question is whether there has been an addition of a typical dye
ink -- one composed of a colorant that is dissolved in the base, not
particles in suspension.  I have heard several stories on this.  The MIS VM
& FS black ink does not have any dyes that are added by MIS as far as I
know.  My tests show the MIS VM/FS black to be more fade and warming
resistant than any of the other allegedly pigment black inks that I have
tested except for the new UltraChrome matte black.  To me, this suggests
that the MIS VM/FS ink does not have dissolved dyes added to it.  It just
performs too well -- and that is the bottom line we are looking for.

These resellers -- MIS and Cone Editions -- are mostly just that. There are
large chemical companies that make these inks, and these companies are not
likely to share proprietary trade secrets with any of us.

So, does MIS FS/VM black ink have dyes in it?  Not that I am aware of, but
it might not be that easy to tell, and it might also be a question of how
one defines a "dye."

Robert Morrison wrote:

>The FS inks was essentially the same as the Sundance
>Neutral-Warm (PiezoBW) ink.  They both contain dyes to
>try to shift the color...but of course it
>didn't work and that's why they warm shifted.

No, as far as I know, the FS inkset is just the MIS FS/VM black diluted to
different densities -- nothing more is added.  As far as I know, there is no
dye in it (at least if there if no "dye" in the black).  FS inks are not
like the old PiezoBW midtones, and they do not fade or warm at the same
rate.  However the standard FS ink, just like all the black pigment inks,
does warm.  It's a question of degree.

>My understanding is that the MIS FS-N set was 100% pigment...
>at least it was toned with pigment like the Piezotone grays.

The "N" (neutral tone) of MIS FS-N was accomplished by adding MIS Archival
cyan and magenta pigments.

>...The only thing that is for sure these
>days...is...lies...lies...lies....

Robert, you're getting almost as cynical as I am!

Well, I won't go quite so far as that.  I do, however, take what I hear with
a big grain of salt.  Luckily we can test the inks for fading.   I think the
only real technology advance in black inks I've seen this year in my testing
is the new UltraChrome matte black.  All the other black inks I've tested
that are darker than the FS/VM black fade and warm considerably more.  But
the ink technology is getting better.  So, I hope there are more pleasant
surprises to come.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

On 10/3/02 10:03 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Robert, you're getting almost as cynical as I am!
> 
> Well, I won't go quite so far as that.  I do, however, take what I hear with
> a big grain of salt.  Luckily we can test the inks for fading.

In Roark we trust...:-)...I certainly won't be using the new Cone blacks
until they pass the Roark test.

> I think the
> only real technology advance in black inks I've seen this year in my testing
> is the new UltraChrome matte black.

The rather disappointing thing about the matte black ultrachrome ink is how
poor it performs (dmax) on every paper other than EAM.  I'm still hoping
that the new Somerset paper has a EAM like coating on it so that we have a
rag paper that does well...but the poor performance is rather limiting for
those that want a nice velvet finish print.   That said I just coated an
Ultrachrome print on Museo today.  The dmax went from a very poor 1.48 to
silver-like 2.13 as measured by my spectrocam.  Past experience tells me
that the real dmax is well over 2.5 (I'm getting a real densitometer in a
couple of days so I will be able to give folks the real number).  This
possibility opens things up...but then again you could also just print on
Epson Luster.  The dmax is only around 2.0...but the prints still look
pretty good.

Robert

Robert wrote: That said I just coated an
> Ultrachrome print on Museo today.  The dmax went from a very poor 
1.48 to silver-like 2.13 as measured by my spectrocam.<

What did you use to coat the paper to get this increase depth?
BJ