Digital BW, The Print

I've been reading raves about this Photo Rag paper.  Is anyone using 
it with an Epson 2200?  If so, here are my questions:

(1) Are you using it WITHOUT a custom profile, and if so, what 
settings do you use in the Epson software? E.g., so you set the Media 
Type to "Velvet Fine Art;" "Premium Glossy," or what?  Do you use 
the "relative colormetric" and "postscript color management" 
settings, and print in Photorealistic mode under color management?

(2) How does it compare to Epson Velvet Fine Art (which I quite like 
with this printer, but I'm always willing to try something new)?

(3) Photo Black or Matte Black ink with this paper?

(4) Most importantly, how are the results for black and white prints?

(5) Other thoughts on Photo rag w. the 2200?

I know that many of you will say "get a custom profile."  That's a 
financial expense I can't handle at the moment.  I tried Ilford's 
Classic Pearl, and set it up as instructed by Ilford (I used Premium 
Glossy as the paper setting) and the prints came out a horrific 
purple.  I'm trying to avoid buying more expensive paper if I can't 
achieve good (not "perfect") results without a custom profile.

(By the way, I have 23 (out of 25) sheets of 11x17 Ilford Classic 
Pearl for sale if anyone's interested, since I can't figure out how 
to get good results from that paper.)

Thanks!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> I know that many of you will say "get a custom profile."  That's a 
> financial expense I can't handle at the moment.


Add up the cost of the wasted paper, plus the wasted ink, plus 
your wasted time, plus the overal frustration, and then compare 
that to $150 for a custom profile.

Or, stay where you are, trying to shoot a moving target. And get 
up tomorrow morning, and try shooting it again.

And for the record, the custom profile won't even solve ALL of the 
problems, but it at least gets you very much in the ballpark. But 
just going through the complete process of setting up for the 
profile forces you to think about and record every minute aspect 
of your printing environment. This can only help in the long run.

Just my opinion.

MT, http://marktucker.com/

On 10/9/02 2:02 PM, "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@...> wrote:

> Ilford's 
> Classic Pearl
 
is not for use with pigmented inks, try the Ilford Classic Smooth
Pearl...that's for pigments.

Robert

On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:02  PM, chipcarterdc wrote:

> I've been reading raves about this Photo Rag paper.  Is anyone using
> it with an Epson 2200?  If so, here are my questions:
>
> (1) Are you using it WITHOUT a custom profile, and if so, what
> settings do you use in the Epson software? E.g., so you set the Media
> Type to "Velvet Fine Art;" "Premium Glossy," or what?  Do you use
> the "relative colormetric" and "postscript color management"
> settings, and print in Photorealistic mode under color management?

I've tried HPR using the Photorealistic workflow, matte black ink, and  
the three available matte media choices in the driver.  The Enhanced  
Matte media choice gave the best results for me.  Prints are very  
similar to EAM except for some slight blocking in the deep shadows  
(98-100%).  I don't have Dmax measurements, but I can not see any  
visual difference in the depth of the blacks compared to EAM and there  
is no black mottling in my prints.  Same results with Brightcube  
Eclipse Satine and I prefer the bright white of this paper compared to  
the warm white of HPR.

> (2) How does it compare to Epson Velvet Fine Art (which I quite like
> with this printer, but I'm always willing to try something new)?

Haven't tried this paper yet.
>
> (3) Photo Black or Matte Black ink with this paper?

Definitely matte black - photo black is useless with any of the matte  
papers.
>
> (4) Most importantly, how are the results for black and white prints?

Comparable to EAM with the same workflow.
>
> (5) Other thoughts on Photo rag w. the 2200?

I'd use it occasionally for prints that demand a warm tone paper, but  
as I said I prefer the BC satine or EAM for most B&W images.
>
> I know that many of you will say "get a custom profile."

I'm still waiting to see some critical reviews of IP 5 (OS X version)  
before I spend any money on custom paper profiles for the 2200.

>   That's a
> financial expense I can't handle at the moment.  I tried Ilford's
> Classic Pearl, and set it up as instructed by Ilford (I used Premium
> Glossy as the paper setting) and the prints came out a horrific
> purple.  I'm trying to avoid buying more expensive paper if I can't
> achieve good (not "perfect") results without a custom profile.
>
> (By the way, I have 23 (out of 25) sheets of 11x17 Ilford Classic
> Pearl for sale if anyone's interested, since I can't figure out how
> to get good results from that paper.)
>
> Thanks!
>
>
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Thanks for the responses so far.  Re: the point about $150 for a 
custom profile v. the cost of wasted paper and inks -- fair point.  
However (and correct me if I'm wrong; I admit that I don't fully 
understand the digital workflow yet, as I am a relative novice at 
digital printing), wouldn't that be $150 PER PAPER TYPE?  Aren't 
custom profiles paper-specific?  Thus, if I standardize on 2 or 3 
papers for different purposes, that's $300 or $450, which adds up to 
a lot of paper and ink, particularly for someone like me interested 
in limited-volume, fine-art prints, and not large quantities of 
commercial prints?  For someone like me, it would take a long time 
before the wasted paper and ink plus the frustration factor added up 
to $450.  Plus the fact that if an interesting new paper comes out 
(or more to the point, while I'm still testing different types of 
papers), I'd have to get the new paper profiled too.

Or am I missing something about how profiles work?

Also, thanks to the person who responded about the Ilford Classic 
Pearl.  It would have been nice if Ilford had told me that this was 
the wrong paper for this printer when I called them....

Thanks!

> 
> Add up the cost of the wasted paper, plus the wasted ink, plus 
> your wasted time, plus the overal frustration, and then compare 
> that to $150 for a custom profile.
> 
> Or, stay where you are, trying to shoot a moving target. And get 
> up tomorrow morning, and try shooting it again.
> 
> And for the record, the custom profile won't even solve ALL of the 
> problems, but it at least gets you very much in the ballpark. But 
> just going through the complete process of setting up for the 
> profile forces you to think about and record every minute aspect 
> of your printing environment. This can only help in the long run.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> MT, http://marktucker.com/

I disagree that you need custom profiles to produce excellent 
prints with the 2200.  I've been using the Epson 2200 for about a 
week now and I'm thoroughly impressed.  Right out of the box 
using the supplied profiles it's color accuracy is very impressive.  
It prints both color and BW far better than the Epson 1200 with 
Gen 4 inks and Cone/Inkjetmall custom profiles ever did.
I also find the Dmax to be much better than the Gen 4 inks.

Here is my workflow for Photo Rag:

Media Type:  Enhanced Matte
Print Quality: 1440
Color Management:  No Color Adjustment

Source Space:  The profile attached to the image.  I use my 
monitor space Lacie Blue eye (Created with LaCie Blue Eye and 
Software), but Epson recommends Colormatch.

Print Space:  SP2200 VelvetFineArt-MK

The MK stands for Matte Black

I'm interested to know if anybody has a better workflow, and if 
this helps?

I'm not saying that it can produce exhibition quality BW prints with 
this workflow, but I'm not sure a profile could do that.  For this 
we'll have to wait  for IP5.


Www.michaelfaye.com

On 10/11/02 12:12 AM, "mfp90021" <mfp90021@...> wrote:

> I also find the Dmax to be much better than the Gen 4 inks.

I couldn't tell from your email whether you were using Photorag...as the
subject line suggests, or EAM.  It is certainly not true that the dmax of
the Ultrachromes beats Gen4 on photorag...its not even close from the
numbers that I've seen.  The two ink sets are close on EAM, however.  But
the main issue is that the Ultrachrome Matte black seems to be much more
stable.

Robert

> > I also find the Dmax to be much better than the Gen 4 inks.
> 
> I couldn't tell from your email whether you were using 
Photorag...as the
> subject line suggests, or EAM.  It is certainly not true that the 
dmax of
> the Ultrachromes beats Gen4 on photorag...its not even close 
from the
> numbers that I've seen.  The two ink sets are close on EAM, 
however.  But
> the main issue is that the Ultrachrome Matte black seems to 
be much more
> stable.
> 
> Robert

I'm not sure where those numbers came from.

You  prompted me to take some readings using a Spectrolino in 
spot color mode.  Here are the RGB values (lower value = better 
Dmax).  All Ultrachrome values with matte black ink.
                                                           R  G  B
Ilford RC PHOTO paper..................21 20 22
Ultrachrome/PhotoRag...................34 34 34  
Piezotone/ PhotoRag.......................29 30 34
Sundance/Sommerset E.................45 45 44
Ultrachrome/EAM..............................30 31 31
Gen4/EAM......................................32 33 37
Gen4/BrightcubeSatine....................38 41 43
UltraChrome/BrightCubeSatine.... 35 36 37

I'm sorry that I don't have a value for Gen4/PR but I gave the 1200 
printer to my neighbor.  I'll try to get that ASAP.   

The black of the Epson 2200, using Photo Rag and the matte 
black ink, is very rich.

www.michaelfaye.com

Dmax is visual density and it is a property specifically of the inks laid
down when you print 100% black (and of course the whiteness of the paper).
The numbers that I mentioned were properly read using a densitometer which
is the correct instrument for measuring dmax.  Most spectrophotometers will
also give you visual...which is approximately dmax.

Robert

On 10/11/02 3:39 PM, "mfp90021" <mfp90021@...> wrote:

> 
>>> I also find the Dmax to be much better than the Gen 4 inks.
>> 
>> I couldn't tell from your email whether you were using
> Photorag...as the
>> subject line suggests, or EAM.  It is certainly not true that the
> dmax of
>> the Ultrachromes beats Gen4 on photorag...its not even close
> from the
>> numbers that I've seen.  The two ink sets are close on EAM,
> however.  But
>> the main issue is that the Ultrachrome Matte black seems to
> be much more
>> stable.
>> 
>> Robert
> 
> I'm not sure where those numbers came from.
> 
> You  prompted me to take some readings using a Spectrolino in
> spot color mode.  Here are the RGB values (lower value = better
> Dmax).  All Ultrachrome values with matte black ink.
>                                                          R  G  B
> Ilford RC PHOTO paper..................21 20 22
> Ultrachrome/PhotoRag...................34 34 34
> Piezotone/ PhotoRag.......................29 30 34
> Sundance/Sommerset E.................45 45 44
> Ultrachrome/EAM..............................30 31 31
> Gen4/EAM......................................32 33 37
> Gen4/BrightcubeSatine....................38 41 43
> UltraChrome/BrightCubeSatine.... 35 36 37
> 
> I'm sorry that I don't have a value for Gen4/PR but I gave the 1200
> printer to my neighbor.  I'll try to get that ASAP.
> 
> The black of the Epson 2200, using Photo Rag and the matte
> black ink, is very rich.
> 
> www.michaelfaye.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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>

Robert,

It seemed to me that you were looking for a paper to use with the 
Ultrachrome inks because you had read that the matte black ink 
doesn't have a good Dmax with Photo Rag.  That is not true.  It 
has excellent blacks with Photo Rag, superior to the 
Gen4/PhotoRag.  I'd be happy to send you a sample.

www.michaelfaye.com 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Dmax is visual density and it is a property specifically of the 
inks laid
> down when you print 100% black (and of course the whiteness 
of the paper).
> The numbers that I mentioned were properly read using a 
densitometer which
> is the correct instrument for measuring dmax.  Most 
spectrophotometers will
> also give you visual...which is approximately dmax.
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 10/11/02 3:39 PM, "mfp90021" <mfp90021@y...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> >>> I also find the Dmax to be much better than the Gen 4 inks.
> >> 
> >> I couldn't tell from your email whether you were using
> > Photorag...as the
> >> subject line suggests, or EAM.  It is certainly not true that the
> > dmax of
> >> the Ultrachromes beats Gen4 on photorag...its not even 
close
> > from the
> >> numbers that I've seen.  The two ink sets are close on EAM,
> > however.  But
> >> the main issue is that the Ultrachrome Matte black seems 
to
> > be much more
> >> stable.
> >> 
> >> Robert
> > 
> > I'm not sure where those numbers came from.
> > 
> > You  prompted me to take some readings using a 
Spectrolino in
> > spot color mode.  Here are the RGB values (lower value = 
better
> > Dmax).  All Ultrachrome values with matte black ink.
> >                                                          R  G  B
> > Ilford RC PHOTO paper..................21 20 22
> > Ultrachrome/PhotoRag...................34 34 34
> > Piezotone/ PhotoRag.......................29 30 34
> > Sundance/Sommerset E.................45 45 44
> > Ultrachrome/EAM..............................30 31 31
> > Gen4/EAM......................................32 33 37
> > Gen4/BrightcubeSatine....................38 41 43
> > UltraChrome/BrightCubeSatine.... 35 36 37
> > 
> > I'm sorry that I don't have a value for Gen4/PR but I gave the 
1200
> > printer to my neighbor.  I'll try to get that ASAP.
> > 
> > The black of the Epson 2200, using Photo Rag and the matte
> > black ink, is very rich.
> > 
> > www.michaelfaye.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> >