Digital BW, The Print

Paul,

Thank you very much for that link. I have put added the website to the links
section of the group. I am working my way through the paper. Very
interesting stuff and a lot to digest.

One thing strikes me though. While we need to be informed about conservation
and longevity, I really have to question to what degree we should let this
rule our art. If we feel one set of materials is better artistically, even
though it may not be the best for longevity, maybe we should follow the art.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:15 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Preservation of Inkjet Hardcopies


> I just read a paper entitled, "Preservation of Ink Jet Hardcopies," (M.
> Jurgens, 1999 http://www.knaw.nl/ecpa/PUBL/InkJ-300.pdf ) that has a
number
> of interesting facts that I had not seen elsewhere.  While the article is
> aimed at conservators, it has good explanations of many facets of the
> technologies we are using.  I've put some of my notes below.  My comments
> are in brackets; page numbers are in parentheses.
>
> I Ink Jet Printing [a general overview]
>
> The brighteners used in many coatings are titanium dioxide pigments. (20)
>
> II. Materials Analysis (29)
>
> Pigments and Dyes (31)
>
> The majority of pigments used in ink jet ink today are organic.  Organic
> pigments are produced by chemically "stacking" organic dyes to form larger
> particles.  Formerly water soluble dyes are stacked like wet glass plates
on
> top of each other, forming a crystal-like structure that precipitates out
of
> the aqueous solution. (31)
>
> [This could explain the seeming confusion about whether the pigments we
use
> contain dyes.  They may be dyes that are simply "stacked."  Nowhere did I
> see a description of a coated carbon particle.  I'm begining to wonder if
> the color pigments have any carbon in them at all.]
>
> Smaller pigment particles have better color, gloss and transparency but
> worse lightfastness. (32)  [UC inks come to mind.]
>
> The harder a pigment particle is, the more abrasive it will be in the
print
> head and the more it might endanger the integrity of the fragile nozzle
> opening.  Organic pigments are generally softer than inorganic ones. (32)
> [Metal added to black to make it darker might not be the best solution.]
>
> Organic Colorant Classes (35)
>
> Water soluble azo dyes will have a sulfonic acid group (-S03H).  Azo dyes
> are the most common dye molecule types.  [Imagine what that acid does when
> it hits an alkaline buffer.]
>
> Copper phtalocyanine cyan dyes are counted among the most brilliant and
> stable of dyes.  [The cyan pigment might be a "stack" of these.  It
appears
> to be the most stable in my fade testing.  The key to a good midtone, in
my
> view, is a pure carbon particle toned with cyan pigment.]
>
> Chemically inert pigments employed in ink jet printing include carbon
black,
> diarylide yellows, metal salt reds, pthalocyamine blues, and mono azos.
> [I'm not sure "chemically inert" implies resistance to being broken by UV
> and visible light.]
>
> Ingredients of Liquid Inks
>
> Colorant
>
> Pigment particles are large enough to scatter white light on their
surface,
> whereas dye molecules are much smaller than the wavelengths of visible
light
> and thus do not scatter any.
>
> Substrates
>
> Paper Media (38)
>
> Bond Paper
>
> The most common internal sizing is that of the tree resin called rosin,
> which is mostly an organic acid. (39)
>
> Archival Paper (40)
>
> While the most stable paper is made from cotton, chemically purified wood
> pulp, such as that used in fiber-based B&W photo paper, is also suitable
for
> long term archivability.
>
> The use of rosin sizing would be counterproductive.  These papers tend to
be
> internally sized with synthetic alkaline substances ... buffers ... most
> common calcium carbonate.
>
> Coated Paper
>
> These have better image quality, but ageing characteristics have not been
> explored thoroughly. (41)
>
> Paper-Plastic Combinations
>
> RC based papers are likely to develop problems similar to those of
> photographic RC papers.
>
> Receptor Coatings (43)
>
> [Typical single layer coatings include a number of ingredients.  These can
> be complex mixes, which, of course, means that the interactions with inks
> and other chemicals might also be very complex and unpredictable in the
long
> run.]
>
> Some matte coatings are almost entirely silica particles.
>
> Some silica coatings might be slightly acidic. (44)
>
> Laminates and Coatings (45)
>
> It is generally recommended not to laminate or coat valuable prints, since
> the danger of unwanted interaction between the laminate and the image
> forming dyes is present and as yet widely untested.  Coatings are
> practically non-reversible.
>
> Varnishes are vegetable oil formulations that air-dry.  Lacquers are
> solvent-based and dry to a high gloss, but they often lack good adhesion
and
> flexibility.
>
> Lamination of Longevity?
>
> Lamination at one time was used to preserve papers, but has fallen out of
> favor.  Although lamination was controversial for the beginning, later
> critics mainly only attacked the use of insufficient deacidification
rather
> than the lamination itself. (46)
>
> Some documents had become brittle inside of the lamination, perhaps a
result
> of cellulose acetate [the film used] deterioration.
>
> Lamination of Ink Jet Prints
>
> For advertising banners, etc., the benefits of laminates or coatings are
> well suited to the purpose -- short term protection.
>
> A fin art hardcopy that will either be exhibited in controlled lighting or
> be carefully housed will not necessarily need the brute protection of a
> laminate.  In order to avoid any as yet unforeseen complications that
might
> arise with the long term intimate contact between a plastic and the ink,
not
> to mention the largely irreversible character of the physical fusion, it
> might be wise to avoid laminates or coatings altogether.
>
> If protection against physical damage is needed, then it might be
> appropriate.
>
> Preservation Issues (48)
>
> The main concern in long term stability of ink jet prints is their
> relatively weak light-fastness.
>
> Light and UV-Fastness
>
> Dyes will not only fade due to UV, but also due to the effects of visible
> light. (52)
>
> UV radiation in the 200 - 400 nm range is primarily what causes
> photochemical reactions and bond ruptures in organic compounds.
>
> Reactions between the colorants and the substances in the coatings are
> typically of reductive and oxidative nature.
>
> Colorant Fading
>
> The photolytic deterioration of organic colorants is the main factor.
>
> If a double bond is broken, the conjugation length of the molecule is
> reduced, and the color absorption capabilities are disturbed, either
leading
> to a loss of its absorptive and reflective capabilities which is perceived
> as fading, or leading to a shift in wavelength absorption which results in
a
> color shift.  The complete rupture of a bond (cleavage), such as  is
> possible with azo groups (-N=N-) leads to the division of the molecule
into
> two smaller ones, which will each have shorter conjugation lengths. (53)
>
> [This color shift may be part of the warming we see with most dyes and
> pirments used in B&W pritning.]
>
> Magenta dyes have continued to be the least light stable. [My recent
> UltraChrome and MIS color pigment test seems consistent with this.]
>
> Magenta and black dyes have long posed stability problems.
>
> The size of the pigment stacks assist in dissipating the energy.   Also,
> already faded surface molecules can act as light barriers for the internal
> molecules of the pigment crystal. (54)  [Perhaps this is part of the
reason
> there seems to be faster fading of pigments at first.]
>
> Pigments vary in their lightfastness depending on the internal structure
of
> their particles.  Large crystals free from defects will probably have a
> higher lightfastness.
>
> Substrates and Coatings
>
> When the presence of the ink receptor coating with its complex mixture of
> binders and additives is taken into account, the prospect of permanence
> testing and research becomes daunting.  It is partly for this reason that
it
> is largely recommended to print documents that are to be valued in the
long
> term on thorough tested, well known, high quality, and uncoated substrates
> such as 100% rag content artists' paper.
>
> An alkaline environment might increase the lightfastness of a print, but
it
> could also reduce the color gamut.  As the image quality is the current
> driving force in sales, manufacturers are reluctant to trade off color for
> permanence.  [So, it might be that we would be better off with a more
> alkaline surface -- contrary to the color printers.]
>
> Little is known of interactions between the coating and the substrate in
> environments of high humidity and temperature.  Problems have arisen with
> the structural stability of coated vinyl substrates; due to the smooth
> surface of the vinyl and the tendency for integrated plasticisers to
migrate
> to the film surface, the coating can partially fail to adhere, which can
> lead to flaking. (54-55)
>
> Laminates
>
> For advertising, laminates will greatly enhance weatherability.
>
> Water vapor and oxygen will diffuse through the plastic in small amounts
> over a long period.
>
> Lamination can only be recommended for prints that have no high monetary
or
> artistic value.
>
> The overall understanding is that, thought the protective coatings may
> enhance the durability in the short run and in extreme environments, the
> long term consequences cannot be completely predicted.
>
> One-sided coating can be problematic in that substances access the reverse
> side and diffuse through the substrate to form stains that are visible on
> the front, but inaccessible due to the plastic coating.
>
> If a print is to be sealed, be sure it is completely dry -- 24 hours.
>
> De-lamination has been successful. (56)
>
> Spray-on lacquer used in photography consists of cellulose nitrate and
> introduces all the aging related problems associated with that chemical,
> including yellowing and production of nitric acid gases.
>
> UV absorbers integrated into the lacquers and the cellulose nitrate were
> also responsible for these reactions.
>
> Recommendations (57)
>
> Inkjet hardcopies can be extremely complex objects.
>
> As inks become more and more light stable, the generation of hardcopies
from
> the last ten years will become one know to be condemned to rapid fading,
but
> it would seem that this is a phase that well eventually come to an end.
> [But will any of us live long enough to see it?]
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>
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"Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
>While we need to be informed about conservation
> and longevity, I really have to question to what degree we should let this> rule our art. If we feel one set of materials is better artistically, even> though it may not be the best for longevity, maybe we should follow the art.

There's a guy out here in Encinitas, CA who makes some beautiful art in the sand at low tide and watches it wash away.  Much like the monks in the Himalaya with their mandalas.

Art for art! Not for the eons!

That said, orange prints suck and I am definately counting on the pigments ;)

----- Original Message -----

From: "gaberegalbuto" <gaberegalbuto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Preservation of Inkjet Hardcopies


> "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >While we need to be informed about conservation
> > and longevity, I really have to question to what degree we should let
this> rule our art. If we feel one set of materials is better artistically,
even> though it may not be the best for longevity, maybe we should follow
the art.
>
> There's a guy out here in Encinitas, CA who makes some beautiful art in
the sand at low tide and watches it wash away.  Much like the monks in the
Himalaya with their mandalas.
>
> Art for art! Not for the eons!
>
> That said, orange prints suck and I am definately counting on the pigments
;)
>
Gabriel,

Well if you look at art permanence, you have on one end live impromptu
performance art such as jazz that exists only for the moment and on the
other Mt. Rushmore that will be around awhile but still not forever. Then
there are lots of things in between and other stuff off to the side,
intellectual art such as the literature and written music that can be
endlessly recopied without loss.

We probably all need to think about where we want to work on that sliding
scale of permanence. Like you I am counting on the pigments. I would like
all the effort and time I am expending to hang around for awhile, but I
don't want to get more wrapped up in how long it will last than how good it
looks. It's a balancing act and I really don't have a good feel for how
long, "long enough" is for myself. I hope it lasts my lifetime but if it
ages I don't know that I will be crushed either.

Perhaps a reasonable approach is to work with the materials we have today
and do the best we can. As new an better materials come along in a year or
two, reprint some of our better work with the new materials and then a few
years later when there are more improvements do it again. Hey maybe in ten
years there will be desktop lightjet digital enlargers and you will be
looking for that odorless stop bath again.<G>

Martin Wesley

Paul, you quoted and wrote:

> The majority of pigments used in ink jet ink today are organic.  Organic
> pigments are produced by chemically "stacking" organic dyes to form larger
> particles.  Formerly water soluble dyes are stacked like wet glass plates
on
> top of each other, forming a crystal-like structure that precipitates out
of
> the aqueous solution. (31)
>
> [This could explain the seeming confusion about whether the pigments we
use
> contain dyes.  They may be dyes that are simply "stacked."  Nowhere did I
> see a description of a coated carbon particle.  I'm begining to wonder if
> the color pigments have any carbon in them at all.]

The last was something I have written you a long time ago: there are no
carbon particles in inkjet inks but in the black/grey inks. First appearence
of that carbon black ink must have been in HP inkjets. Carbon is mentioned
further on in your quotes.

> Smaller pigment particles have better color, gloss and transparency but
> worse lightfastness. (32)  [UC inks come to mind.]

The surface to volume increases in smaller particles and so more surface to
interact with fading agents/light. I bet that there is something else going
on in UC inks. First the encapsulation itself contains a colorant, whether
that is dye or the result of a lower stacking of dye molecules. More the
encapsulation of a ball of wooll so to speak. If it is a dye in the coating
then that will fade first, otherwise the more open structure of a less dense
particle will fade faster on light again because more surface is exposed to
light
(but less to chemical reactivity as a result of the acrylic coating).

> The harder a pigment particle is, the more abrasive it will be in the
print
> head and the more it might endanger the integrity of the fragile nozzle
> opening.  Organic pigments are generally softer than inorganic ones. (32)
> [Metal added to black to make it darker might not be the best solution.]

Metal sounds hard but this is a kind of dye component.

> Organic Colorant Classes (35)
>
> Water soluble azo dyes will have a sulfonic acid group (-S03H).  Azo dyes
> are the most common dye molecule types.  [Imagine what that acid does when
> it hits an alkaline buffer.]

Give a good bond ? ;-)

> Copper phtalocyanine cyan dyes are counted among the most brilliant and
> stable of dyes.  [The cyan pigment might be a "stack" of these.  It
appears
> to be the most stable in my fade testing.  The key to a good midtone, in
my
> view, is a pure carbon particle toned with cyan pigment.]
>
> Chemically inert pigments employed in ink jet printing include carbon
black,
> diarylide yellows, metal salt reds, pthalocyamine blues, and mono azos.
> [I'm not sure "chemically inert" implies resistance to being broken by UV
> and visible light.]

Chemically inert: less chance to bind themselves chemically / or be broken
up to / by other substances, gasses etc. Light only plays a role then when
it is part of such a chemical process.

> Pigment particles are large enough to scatter white light on their
surface,
> whereas dye molecules are much smaller than the wavelengths of visible
light
> and thus do not scatter any.

Main problem to get that fade resistance black with a high density.
Also part of the gamut problem with pigment inks.

> Dyes will not only fade due to UV, but also due to the effects of visible
> light. (52)

For the kind of work we do, the last is the main part of light fading.

> UV radiation in the 200 - 400 nm range is primarily what causes
> photochemical reactions and bond ruptures in organic compounds.

Normal Window glass cuts at 350Nm so there is only 350 to 400 left of UV
light. You better keep that part I guess as it will influence the gamut as
well. In the case that there is no fluorescent at all in ink and paper a
more UV cutting glass can be used.

> Reactions between the colorants and the substances in the coatings are
> typically of reductive and oxidative nature.
>
> Colorant Fading
>
> The photolytic deterioration of organic colorants is the main factor.
>
> If a double bond is broken, the conjugation length of the molecule is
> reduced, and the color absorption capabilities are disturbed, either
leading
> to a loss of its absorptive and reflective capabilities which is perceived
> as fading, or leading to a shift in wavelength absorption which results in
a
> color shift.  The complete rupture of a bond (cleavage), such as  is
> possible with azo groups (-N=N-) leads to the division of the molecule
into
> two smaller ones, which will each have shorter conjugation lengths. (53)
>
> [This color shift may be part of the warming we see with most dyes and
> pirments used in B&W pritning.]

I thought that it would fade the other way then, getting colder. Isn't it
that the dye or other added colorant fades and the carbon brown becomes
prominent that gives the warming ?

> The size of the pigment stacks assist in dissipating the energy.   Also,
> already faded surface molecules can act as light barriers for the internal
> molecules of the pigment crystal. (54)  [Perhaps this is part of the
reason
> there seems to be faster fading of pigments at first.]

Correct, often seen in silkscreen inks as well when exposed outdoors, clean
the surface and part of the colour returns.The thicker the layer the longer
it will withstand fading but the top layer will diminish the effect, less so
with transparant inks.

Nice report, will read a hardcopy this evening. There's that older report of
Barbara Vogt that has been mentioned on some lists before. All RIT related
research AFAIK.

http://www.geocities.com/mortenryhl/index.html

Ernst

> 
> There's a guy out here in Encinitas, CA who makes some beautiful 
art in the sand at low tide and watches it wash away.  Much like the 
monks in the Himalaya with their mandalas.
> 

There is a GREAT movie out there (obscure...art houses only) RIVERS 
AND TIDES, about the art of Andy Goldsworthy which is made up on 
shores and in rivers and dissipates rather quickly <g>...but he DOES 
back them up with good photos (which he makes a living from).

Martin's concepts of following the art and striking a balance 
resonate. Our images may be art, but our prints are something 
else...the purpose of the print is to enable some degree of duration 
for the image. On the other hand, I think we all realize that we are 
really just experimenting with our passion for inkjet printing...the 
good news is that so long as we back our our files, we can do it over 
again as the technology or materials improve or at least as we learn 
more about which combinations really will work long term. 

I think the decisions made by folks here in the forum to use various 
inks on even more various papers is creating a huge organic database 
of results...but we have very little in the way of standards and data 
collection, so our learning process is a pretty crooked trail. I can 
only assume the Epsons and Canons of the world are going about the 
process very scientifically, but I don't hold out any real hope that 
they will put the effort into BW process any time soon...or to the 
degree that we will desire.

Is there some standards group or research outfit we could affiliate 
with to try to order our db? If SETI can capture data with SETI at 
home, we should be able to do SOMETHING with all the data we are 
creating ...

Absent something more scientific, we follow our instincts...shying 
away from dye ink seems to be the first step for many, but who knows 
if X pigment with Y paper is really going to be measureably better 
over the really long term?

Tom O'Connell

Martin,

>... While we need to be informed about conservation
>and longevity, I really have to question to what degree
>we should let this rule our art. ...

Absolutely.  It's just a factor that is more important to some people and
for some uses than others.  However, there is a lot of information in that
article that relates to our technology and is relevant to issues aside from
longevity.  A new comer to the field could get a very good overview of
inkjet printing by reading the first 20 pages of the report.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Ernst,

Thanks for the informative comments.

>> ... Organic pigments are produced by chemically "stacking"
>>organic dyes to form larger particles.

>... there are no carbon particles in inkjet inks but in
>the black/grey inks.

When I first started to get into this field I made the mistake of assuming
the ink sellers knew what their products were.  I remember years ago how
impressed I was with a local photo dealer who had put a sign above the
counter with a huge "I DON'T KNOW" printed on it.  I would so much rather
hear those words than BS that causes me to waste time racing down blind
alleys.

>> Smaller pigment particles have better color, gloss and transparency but
>> worse lightfastness. (32)  [UC inks come to mind.]

>... I bet that there is something else going
>on in UC inks. First the encapsulation itself contains a colorant, whether
>that is dye or the result of a lower stacking of dye molecules.

I also have the impression that there is a colorant in the coating -- but
perhaps only of the color pigs.  (I never know how much faith to put in my
reading between the lines, however.)  I think that might be one reason the
color prints have a shorter life than the B&W prints and also, perhaps, why
the UC inks do much worse on EAM (which is not dye friendly) than do the
older Archival pigments.

>... the encapsulation ...acrylic coating

Have you seen good information that indicates the coating is acrylic?  My
recent research in coatings does seem to indicate acrylic is the best way to
go, but there are all sorts of coatings out there (and different acrylics
also).

>> Water soluble azo dyes will have a sulfonic acid group (-S03H).
>>[Imagine what that acid does when it hits an alkaline buffer.]

>Give a good bond ? ;-)

I don't know.

The EAM surface (as opposed to paper base) is actually slightly alkaline.
I've wondered if this is part of why EAM is good for pigments but not dyes.

On the other hand, when I see that the "EAM" name has only been dropped on
the rolls -- not the smaller sheets -- it makes me wonder if nothing more
than an attempt to separate markets is going on.  That common strategy would
be aimed at getting the big format guys to pay more for the high-profit
"acid free" papers Epson markets only to them.

>> Dyes will not only fade due to UV, but also due to the
>>effects of visible light.

>For the kind of work we do, the last is the main part of light fading.

I agree.  Moreover, someone who is really into his/her display prints will
probably have UV coating on south-facing windows.  Fluorescent lights in
offices (like even my little home office) may be the main UV source our
prints will have to deal with.

Even if the UV inhibitors cause improved fade tests in my fluorescent fader
(uncertain at this point), I'm not sure I want them in the acrylic coatings
I'm experimenting with.  Most of them start out more yellow (big negative to
me) and may increase the risk of negative long-term aging problems.


>> Colorant Fading
>> If a double bond is broken, the conjugation length of the molecule is
>>reduced, and the color absorption capabilities are disturbed,
>>either leading to ...fading, or leading to a shift in
>>wavelength absorption which results in a color shift.
>>The complete rupture of a bond (cleavage), ...leads to the
>>division of the molecule into two smaller ones, which
>>will each have shorter conjugation lengths. (53)
>
>> [This color shift may be part of the warming we see with most dyes and
>> pigments used in B&W printing.]

>I thought that it would fade the other way then, getting colder.
>Isn't it that the dye or other added colorant fades and the carbon
>brown becomes prominent that gives the warming ?

I think that with the dye-toned black pigments that probably is part of the
formula.  However, I see warm shifts in color pigments and pure black dyes
also.

I had originally thought that with the color pigments the color coating was
burning off -- but that was based on the, apparently, inaccurate model of a
carbon particle in the center.

>There's that older report of
>Barbara Vogt that has been mentioned on some lists before.

I summarized it some time ago on this list.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Preservation of Inkjet Hardcopies



Paul, you wrote:

> >... the encapsulation ...acrylic coating
>
> Have you seen good information that indicates the coating is acrylic?  My
> recent research in coatings does seem to indicate acrylic is the best way
to
> go, but there are all sorts of coatings out there (and different acrylics
> also).

IIRIC, it must have been Dave King who wrote that on a list and when asked
he came up with a webpage that had something to do with Epson itself. Will
try to check it.

> >>The complete rupture of a bond (cleavage), ...leads to the
> >>division of the molecule into two smaller ones, which
> >>will each have shorter conjugation lengths. (53)
> >
> >> [This color shift may be part of the warming we see with most dyes and
> >> pigments used in B&W printing.]
>
> >I thought that it would fade the other way then, getting colder.
> >Isn't it that the dye or other added colorant fades and the carbon
> >brown becomes prominent that gives the warming ?
>
> I think that with the dye-toned black pigments that probably is part of
the
> formula.  However, I see warm shifts in color pigments and pure black dyes
> also.

The first generation of Epson dyes lost the light magenta and yellow in
fading first and the print became green/cyan. The first Generations had a
bad yellow. I thought that suited the description.

Ernst

At 10:36 PM -0700 10/16/02, Martin Wesley wrote:
>.....
>
>One thing strikes me though. While we need to be informed about conservation
>and longevity, I really have to question to what degree we should let this
>rule our art. If we feel one set of materials is better artistically, even
>though it may not be the best for longevity, maybe we should follow the art.
>
>Martin Wesley
>
>http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>

Martin,

Your comments above touched on something I wanted to discuss for a 
while now.  After 22 years in art and photography I worried about 
archival quality and technical matters a good bit of the time. 
However, I don't believe archival quality/longevity should be the 
tail that wags the dog. Nor do I want to become a slave to 
densitometery readings.  At some point most of us need to just look 
at the image and it either works or it doesn't.

I think we should learn to trust our aesthetic judgement and our eyes 
instead of relying on the photo scientists for everything.  One of 
the positive things about being a member of a list like this is that 
there is a ton of excellent technical information that is all very 
helpful.  However, sometimes I think it needs to be put in 
prospective or it can stop us from taking excellent images or even 
make us reject new technology because of some perceived specification 
that does not "meet the numbers".  .

A recent example is the densitometer readings of photo rag with the 
new Ultrachorme inks. After reading a number of posts, I was 
disappointed and concerned that my favorite paper might be no good 
with these inks.  However, I went further and purchased test images 
on different stocks with the new inks using an Epson 7600 from 
inkjetart.com in Salt Lake City.  I am happy to report that the 
samples look great to me and the photo rag paper looks just fine in 
both black and white or color mode.  I have ordered a 7600 and look 
forward to using it.

Believe me that I am not anti-science and have been a very proficient 
tester of developers/papers and other things over the years using 
traditional darkroom techniques.  I do remember, however, an 
experience with the editor of one of the more technically oriented 
photo magazines which I will not name, but it's editorial offices are 
in the midwest.  Their magazine is replete with very technical 
article riddled with many charts, graphs and occasional chemical 
notations...however, the photographs that accompanied many of these 
articles were aesthetically some of the most boring pictures I have 
ever seen.

I went to a Photo West meeting about 15 years ago and stopped by 
their booth and met their editor.  As a long time subscriber to the 
magazine, I told him I enjoyed reading the technical articles and 
wondered it they ever accepted portfolios to publish.I showed him 
some of mine that I had with me.   He took one look and said, "oh, 
you are a fine arts photographer and most of our readers don't relate 
well to that kind or work.  They like the more straightforward 
technical stuff."...Well, that said it all...I then understood why 
the great technical articles accompanied with mediocre photos were 
the norm for that magazine.

In summary, I am not at all anti-technical, but would argue that we 
need to loosen up a bit and experiment with materials and techniques 
that are not yet blessed by Wilhelm or other demi-Gods in the photo 
world lest we become very sterile about this wonderful field that has 
a history of bold experimentation. I am sure many of you are familiar 
with the works of Man Ray or the Starns twins.  The twins, whose work 
I thought was quite innovative, occasionally used scotch tape in 
their work, the thought of which still sends chills up the spines of 
some of my more archivally driven colleagues.

yours digitally,

Bill Agee
-- 

bill agee studio
capistrano beach, ca / laguna beach, ca

http://www.redsilver.com

Paul, you wrote:
>
> > >... the encapsulation ...acrylic coating
> >
> > Have you seen good information that indicates the coating is acrylic?
My
> > recent research in coatings does seem to indicate acrylic is the best
way
> to
> > go, but there are all sorts of coatings out there (and different
acrylics
> > also).
>
> IIRIC, it must have been Dave King who wrote that on a list and when asked
> he came up with a webpage that had something to do with Epson itself. Will
> try to check it.

Got it:

http://photocollection.epson.com/pressroom/artist.html

bottom of the page

http://www.pcworld.com/resource/printable/article/0,aid,17436,00.asp

centre of the page

Ernst

> In summary, I am not at all anti-technical, but would argue that we 
need to loosen up a bit and experiment with materials and
techniques that are not yet blessed by Wilhelm or other demi-Gods in
the photo world lest we become very sterile about this wonderful field
that has a history of bold experimentation. I am sure many of you are
familiar with the works of Man Ray or the Starns twins.  The twins,
whose work I thought was quite innovative, occasionally used scotch
tape in their work, the thought of which still sends chills up the
spines of some of my more archivally driven colleagues.
>----------------------------------------------------------

Well said, thanks.   

I visited your web site and enjoyed your work.  I like the approach -
very refreshing.

Regards, - cj

There was a Starn twins show at the Baltimore Museum of Art in the 80's
when I was in college. One of my painting instructors at the time called
3M, and was told that Scotch Magic Tape is archival. I don't know if
that's true, but we had a ball taping stuff together that semester...

-Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Agee [mailto:billagee@...] 

... I am sure many of you are familiar 
with the works of Man Ray or the Starns twins.  The twins, whose work 
I thought was quite innovative, occasionally used scotch tape in 
their work, the thought of which still sends chills up the spines of 
some of my more archivally driven colleagues.

> There is a GREAT movie out there (obscure...art houses only) RIVERS 
> AND TIDES, about the art of Andy Goldsworthy which is made up on 
> shores and in rivers and dissipates rather quickly <g>...but he DOES 
> back them up with good photos (which he makes a living from).
> 
Here's a web reference if anyone's interested:
http://www.filmforum.com/riversshow.html

Darren
www.pool-room.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ah, i have loved for long this goldsworthy man!   jwp/jno

Darren Collins wrote:

> > There is a GREAT movie out there (obscure...art houses only) RIVERS
> > AND TIDES, about the art of Andy Goldsworthy which is made up on
> > shores and in rivers and dissipates rather quickly <g>...but he DOES
> > back them up with good photos (which he makes a living from).
> >
> Here's a web reference if anyone's interested:
> http://www.filmforum.com/riversshow.html
>
>