Digital BW, The Print

Below is a recent message that I posted to the Piezography support 
group.  Interestingly, I wasn't able to get any confirmation
about whether my results using their system are normal.  Furthermore, 
Cone's tech support appears to be ignoring me since I sent them
this same question over a week ago and still no response.  Any help 
would be very very very much appreciated as these dots are driving me 
crazy!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm new to the Piezo system so I'm having a hard time telling if the 
results I'm getting are normal or if I have a defective printer or am 
doing something wrong.

Please check the following two output scans of Paul Roark's improved 
21-step wedge file to see an example of the dots I'm getting in the 
dark gray areas (thanks for posting this file Paul!).  My highlights 
are fine, but dots are very visible once the black ink kicks in when 
printing shadows (at least I think it is the black ink and not the 
dark gray ink).

This is a zoomed-out image that shows where the second image was 
taken from on the wedge (white box):
http://www.aronica.com/patch/WedgeFull.jpg

Here is the zoomed in version showing what is in the white box 
indicated above @ 1200dpi on a canon flatbed scanner:
http://www.aronica.com/patch/WedgeCloseup.jpg

My environment is as follows:
Epson 1200
PT-WN inks
Windows 2000 OS
EAM Paper
Using PiezographyBW 6.0.4

I also just cleaned the heads using the windex trick and was able to 
get rid of much of the microbanding. Also, I think I'm getting
perfect nozzle checks and alignments (done using EAM paper for both),
although this is hard to confirm since I've never seen an example
on the web that shows what a perfect one looks like.

As you can see in the scans, there is a very visible black (or dark 
gray?) dot patterns showing up which appear to suddenly stop (or 
start depending on which way you look at it) at the 55% or 114 gray 
step. These dots are visible to the naked eye (I'm 34 years old so 
eyesight is still somewhat okay).

So my question is, is this what other piezo users see when they print 
out the wedge? If not, is there a way to fix this? When I used to use 
the Lyson hex b&w inks and the epson driver I never saw any dots 
using the same printer. On the piezography website, it is claimed 
that PiezographyBW is 'dotless'. Why am I seeing dots?  Could my
printer be broken?

Here are a few more pictures that show the dots in a real world 
example:

Full size image with white box indicating zoomed in area:
http://www.aronica.com/patch/seaweed.jpg

Zoomed in area:
http://www.aronica.com/patch/seaweedcloseup.jpg

Thanks for your help with this frustrating problem in advance!
-Mark

Mark,

The dots at 55% are probably the cyan ink starting.

No inkjet output that I've seen is dotless under magnification.
Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_____________________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: markaronica [mailto:aronica@...]
  Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 2:43 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Are these dots normal??? (using piezography)


  Below is a recent message that I posted to the Piezography support
  group.  Interestingly, I wasn't able to get any confirmation
  about whether my results using their system are normal.  Furthermore,
  Cone's tech support appears to be ignoring me since I sent them
  this same question over a week ago and still no response.  Any help
  would be very very very much appreciated as these dots are driving me
  crazy!

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
  I'm new to the Piezo system so I'm having a hard time telling if the
  results I'm getting are normal or if I have a defective printer or am
  doing something wrong.

  Please check the following two output scans of Paul Roark's improved
  21-step wedge file to see an example of the dots I'm getting in the
  dark gray areas (thanks for posting this file Paul!).  My highlights
  are fine, but dots are very visible once the black ink kicks in when
  printing shadows (at least I think it is the black ink and not the
  dark gray ink).

  This is a zoomed-out image that shows where the second image was
  taken from on the wedge (white box):
  http://www.aronica.com/patch/WedgeFull.jpg

  Here is the zoomed in version showing what is in the white box
  indicated above @ 1200dpi on a canon flatbed scanner:
  http://www.aronica.com/patch/WedgeCloseup.jpg

  My environment is as follows:
  Epson 1200
  PT-WN inks
  Windows 2000 OS
  EAM Paper
  Using PiezographyBW 6.0.4

  I also just cleaned the heads using the windex trick and was able to
  get rid of much of the microbanding. Also, I think I'm getting
  perfect nozzle checks and alignments (done using EAM paper for both),
  although this is hard to confirm since I've never seen an example
  on the web that shows what a perfect one looks like.

  As you can see in the scans, there is a very visible black (or dark
  gray?) dot patterns showing up which appear to suddenly stop (or
  start depending on which way you look at it) at the 55% or 114 gray
  step. These dots are visible to the naked eye (I'm 34 years old so
  eyesight is still somewhat okay).

  So my question is, is this what other piezo users see when they print
  out the wedge? If not, is there a way to fix this? When I used to use
  the Lyson hex b&w inks and the epson driver I never saw any dots
  using the same printer. On the piezography website, it is claimed
  that PiezographyBW is 'dotless'. Why am I seeing dots?  Could my
  printer be broken?

  Here are a few more pictures that show the dots in a real world
  example:

  Full size image with white box indicating zoomed in area:
  http://www.aronica.com/patch/seaweed.jpg

  Zoomed in area:
  http://www.aronica.com/patch/seaweedcloseup.jpg

  Thanks for your help with this frustrating problem in advance!
  -Mark



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark:

Based on the 1160 RGB Partitioned Epson driver workflow for the MIS 
FS inkset (which is equal to the original PiezoBW inkset), the dark 
gray ink should kick in the neighborhood of 50%.  The black doesn't 
kick until a little later.  In general, the presence of darker dots 
is "normal" when the next ink darker ink kicks in, however, the dots 
in your examples seem a little too harsh but...(don't know the dot 
size of the 1200 vs 1160). The transisitions on my 1160 using the 
Epson driver seem smoother (from memory). 

Are you sure that the ink in the cyan position is in fact dark gray 
and not black by accident?  There is not a lot of reflective density 
difference in the dark gray and black inks, but you could do a swab 
test to confirm.

Jeff Randall

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "markaronica" 
<aronica@m...> wrote:
> Below is a recent message that I posted to the Piezography support 
> group.  Interestingly, I wasn't able to get any confirmation
> about whether my results using their system are normal.  
Furthermore, 
> Cone's tech support appears to be ignoring me since I sent them
> this same question over a week ago and still no response.  Any help 
> would be very very very much appreciated as these dots are driving 
me 
> crazy!
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> I'm new to the Piezo system so I'm having a hard time telling if 
the 
> results I'm getting are normal or if I have a defective printer or 
am 
> doing something wrong.
> 
> Please check the following two output scans of Paul Roark's 
improved 
> 21-step wedge file to see an example of the dots I'm getting in the 
> dark gray areas (thanks for posting this file Paul!).  My 
highlights 
> are fine, but dots are very visible once the black ink kicks in 
when 
> printing shadows (at least I think it is the black ink and not the 
> dark gray ink).
> 
> This is a zoomed-out image that shows where the second image was 
> taken from on the wedge (white box):
> http://www.aronica.com/patch/WedgeFull.jpg
> 
> Here is the zoomed in version showing what is in the white box 
> indicated above @ 1200dpi on a canon flatbed scanner:
> http://www.aronica.com/patch/WedgeCloseup.jpg
> 
> My environment is as follows:
> Epson 1200
> PT-WN inks
> Windows 2000 OS
> EAM Paper
> Using PiezographyBW 6.0.4
> 
> I also just cleaned the heads using the windex trick and was able 
to 
> get rid of much of the microbanding. Also, I think I'm getting
> perfect nozzle checks and alignments (done using EAM paper for 
both),
> although this is hard to confirm since I've never seen an example
> on the web that shows what a perfect one looks like.
> 
> As you can see in the scans, there is a very visible black (or dark 
> gray?) dot patterns showing up which appear to suddenly stop (or 
> start depending on which way you look at it) at the 55% or 114 gray 
> step. These dots are visible to the naked eye (I'm 34 years old so 
> eyesight is still somewhat okay).
> 
> So my question is, is this what other piezo users see when they 
print 
> out the wedge? If not, is there a way to fix this? When I used to 
use 

> the Lyson hex b&w inks and the epson driver I never saw any dots 
> using the same printer. On the piezography website, it is claimed 
> that PiezographyBW is 'dotless'. Why am I seeing dots?  Could my
> printer be broken?
> 
> Here are a few more pictures that show the dots in a real world 
> example:
> 
> Full size image with white box indicating zoomed in area:
> http://www.aronica.com/patch/seaweed.jpg
> 
> Zoomed in area:
> http://www.aronica.com/patch/seaweedcloseup.jpg
> 
> Thanks for your help with this frustrating problem in advance!
> -Mark

>Mark wrote-


>I'm new to the Piezo system so I'm having a hard time telling if the
>results I'm getting are normal or if I have a defective printer or am
>doing something wrong.

Snip


>My highlights
>are fine, but dots are very visible once the black ink kicks in when
>printing shadows (at least I think it is the black ink and not the
>dark gray ink).

I have noticed something similar in reprinting images (and ramps) 
with the PiezoTone WN inks that I had previously done with the 
original Piezo (Sundance) inks. The 50% to 85% range seemed "coarser" 
with the new inks. Rather like the difference between Rodinal grain 
and D-76 grain, crisp sandpaper as opposed to oatmeal. That is the 
"Cyan" position ink in Piezo laid over the "Magenta" (and "Yellow"?), 
not the Black.

The old ink warm/faded, the new doesn't. I suspect the dye or 
whatever that was in the old ink "bled" a bit and helped blend the 
pigment dots.

I've also had problems with using the old profiles with the new inks. 
The PhotoRag 188 profile seems a bit light in the lower "Magenta" 
position range. That makes the entry of the darker "Cyan" dots more 
apparent, and the "gaps" in the "Cyan ink" laydown seem lighter and 
thus more visible as "white dots" or grain. This cannot be eliminated 
with head alignment.

I saw this last week when I compared the "Proof of Piezography" test 
patches from a 7000/IP 5/MIS-FSN set-up with my 1160/Piezo/PT-WN, 
both on Photo Rag. The IP 5 dither was almost perfectly smooth 
throughout the scale, the Piezo "dots" visible at 50% and higher. No 
contest, and I also began to wonder if my 1160 was screwy.

Because of the poor profile, the 50% patch with PT-WN eyeballs equal 
to the 35% sector with FSN, so the "Cyan" transition at 55% is 
obvious. On the other hand, the 95%-60% Piezo range is darker than 
the IP-5 throughout, but the 100% D-max of the FSN K was higher than 
the Piezotone K (initial black formulation).

It would be interesting if there are any ink "collectors" out there 
who could measure the full strength density of the various quad sets 
by position. My hunch is the PiezoTone WN inks are darker in the Cyan 
position and/or lighter in the Magenta than the originals, and thus 
dark tones appear coarser or grainier.

The IP-5 FSN also had better highlight separation that the PT-WN, and 
the 7000/IP-5 easily resolved the 1/360 bars, the 1160 Piezo printed 
them solid. Youse gets what youse pays for.

I wouldn't generalize further until I get some (back-ordered) Museum 
Black and can install the Selenium set.

While Mark's 1200 is a six ink printer, Piezo is a quad process 
designed for the now ancient four ink 3000 and 1160. It seems crazy 
to still run just four inks on 6/7 ink printers. If IJM is 
redesigning Piezo from scratch, let's hope they do it in hex-tone.

"Let your mid-tones be dotless too..." might make a nice slogan
-- 
Bruce C. Kinch
Associate Professor of Photography
The Art Institute of Boston at Lesley University