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Digital BW, The Print

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[Digital BW] Warm and warming inks (was BO printing...)

[Digital BW] Warm and warming inks (was BO printing...)

2002-11-13 by Paul Roark

Peter,

You wrote:


> ----- Paul Roark wrote: -----
> >My need for a neutral quad that did not warm-shift is what caused me to
make
>> the FS-N formula.  This was the first non-warming B&W inkset.

>... how warm the FS inkset is -- both initially following printing, and
>then after fading/warming has taken place. ...

It's what I'd call medium warm.  It's less warm than the original PiezoBW,
and slightly warmer than a cool/neutral silver print.  I've never compared
it to a warm silver print, but it may be close to that.

I used to test and measure warming with my scanner.  On that 256 scale, the
FS would warm about 8 to 10 of 256 units.  It then stabilizes.

I don't know how to measure the time it takes.  In the fade testing by 300
hours it had completed the warming.  It's a question of how much light it
receives.

>I happen to like the warm look of a selenium-toned or platinum print,

My selenium prints are not warm at all.  So, that is paper dependent.  In
general the selenium prints have a bit of magenta in them that is not in FS.
The FS inkset (pre-warming) is not as warm as platinum print, although they
vary considerably depending on the developer used.  After it warms, the FS
is probably within the platinum print range.  The original MIS quads were
quite close to most of the platinum prints I saw on one trip where I did a
survey of print tones with test strips in hand.  Some of the most expensive
platinum prints I saw in a Taos gallery were more like a dark sepia,
however.

>certainly wouldn't want to sell someone a print that was going to start
fading
>like a comfortable pair of jeans within, say, 5 or 10 years (behind glass,
away
>from direct sunlight).

The fading isn't bad with FS.  However, people will see the warming if the
new and old, or long-term display and dark-storage prints are displayed
side-by-side.

>So because I like a warmer print, my only reasons for
>considering FS-N would be if it truly is a more stable inkset.

The FS and FS-N inksets fade at the same rate.  The warming is much less
with the FS-N, however.


> Also, if regular FS
>appears more brownish than selenium tone,

It is warmer.  I'd say more yellowish than brown, however.  Although after
warming, some call the look brown.

> I might choose FS-N if it provides
>a more traditional-photograph-like appearance in comparison to FS.

The FS-N definitely looks better (under glass) next to my
lightly-selenium-toned Kodak Polymax Fine Art prints.

Have you considered the PiezoTone WN midtones with the FS black?  It's the
most stable medium warm inkset now.  The PiezoTone Selenium midtones have a
good tone, but it is definitely not a warm selenium.  It's more like my
Kodak silver prints and the FS-N, which is slightly cool.

>I suppose that means that FS-N is really my only option then?
>I'm not using the Piezography/R9 software, by the way.

If you are using a hextone machine, then the Piezo inks don't lend
themselves to Epson driver use -- unless you re-arrange the inkset.  You can
make an "FS-E" series equivalent from the PiezoTone inks by diluting the
cyan and magenta for the light/photo positions.  Or, you could just use cyan
in both cyan and magenta positions and use magenta in both the light cyan
and light magenta positions.  You'd have to write your own curves, but such
an inkset takes very little adjustment.  I did this with the FS-N inkset
once and it made quite a good way to go.  You can even use just a grayscale
workflow with the inkset, although mild partitioning still gets smoother
tones.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Warm and warming inks (was BO printing...)

2002-11-13 by Clayton Jones

>...people will see the warming if the new and old, or 
>long-term display and >dark-storage prints are displayed
> side-by-side.

For someone who is actively selling prints would it not
be prudent to make prints in advance and let them "cure"
under light before sending them out?

And would it not be possible make them slightly darker to 
compensate for the bit of fading, sort of a reverse 
"digital dry-down" technique?

Regards, - cj

Re: Warm and warming inks

2002-11-19 by peter_in_seattle

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:
>
> I used to test and measure warming with my scanner.  On that 256 scale, the
> FS would warm about 8 to 10 of 256 units.  It then stabilizes.

Clayton Jones suggested printing and then "curing" an FS print before 
displaying or selling it. Sounds like an interesting idea, though maybe not a 
practical one... would it be uniform warming throughout the print? And how 
long would one have to wait?

> Have you considered the PiezoTone WN midtones with the FS black?  It's 
the
> most stable medium warm inkset now.

Would that combination work with an existing set of curves?
Would it work with Piezography/R9 software?
Will the complete FS-N inkset work with the Piezography/R9 software?

Has anyone compiled an up-to-date list of what ink combinations will work on 
which papers with which curves & plugin? It would be a nice document to 
have in the Files section... maybe as an Excel spreadsheet. If people wanted 
to e-mail me the data, I could put it together...

I use an Epson 1160, btw -- a 4-color printer. And I'm not a master curve-
creator or anything, so I'm looking for solutions that require the least possible 
amount of tweaking... (who isn't!).

I don't mind using EAM, by the way. Though I've seen some nice stuff on 
Photo Rag. You mentioned that FS-N is the most stable inkset on EAM. What 
about on Photo Rag?

Peter

Re: Warm and warming inks

2002-11-19 by Clayton Jones

Hello Peter,

> Clayton Jones suggested printing and then "curing" an FS print
>before displaying or selling it. Sounds like an interesting 
>idea, though maybe not a practical one... would it be uniform 
>warming throughout the print? And how long would one have to wait?

I have a print made with the MIS-VM ink set on EAM that has been
hanging unprotected here in my work room with flourescent light 14 to
18 hours per day for over 6 months (4/27/02).  It was still noticably
warming at around 4 months (in August) and seems to have finally
settled down.  It also faded a bit, most noticable in the mid-tones,
so the changes were not completely uniform.  This was not measured on
any instrument, just my eyes.  For reference, right next to it is a
black-only print of the same image done at the same time.  It warmed
slightly over a period of a few weeks (that I could notice) and today
looks very close in color and density to one freshly printed.

Regards, - cj

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