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Subject: RE: Editions: Another Dumb Idea...

Subject: RE: Editions: Another Dumb Idea...

2002-11-19 by glewis4457@aol.com

In a message dated 11/19/2002 8:20:08 AM Central Standard Time, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:

> Subject: RE: Editions: Another Dumb Idea...
> 
> I don't think this makes sense from the position of the buyer. If they
> have the good taste to be an "early investor" in an image that becomes
> popular they wind up getting punished as the value of their investment
> is diluted by the appearance of additional prints on the market. If they
> buy a stinker, the relative scarcity of the print doesn't help the value
> because the image sucks and no one wants to buy it.
> 

It has always been my understanding that you buy what you like and hope for 
appreciation,  It is a bad strategy to try and second guess who will become 
popular and appreciate and who will be a dud.  If you buy what you like at 
least you will always have a piece of artwork that you like.

Jerry in Houston


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Subject: RE: Editions: Another Dumb Idea...

2002-11-19 by Jason DeFontes

Jerry,

I basically agree with you, and I certainly don't buy anything for my
collection that I don't first and foremost truly love. But beyond some
price point I'm not willing to simply pay whatever the price is for
something without at least considering whether it is possibly overpriced
or will potentially lose value. For instance, I once bought a piece at
auction that I later found out was generally available on the retail
market for about half of what I wound up paying. At the time, I was
comfortable that my enjoyment of the piece would be worth the price I
paid. But it was definitely a bad financial decision, because I could
never recoup the money I invested if I ever needed to sell the piece for
whatever reason.

My point being, even when you're buying something you love, you still
have to give some consideration to whether you're spending your money
wisely. Buying into a scheme that has the potential to decrease in value
under the conditions where it would normally increase (i.e. a
particularly good piece that winds up becoming popular) doesn't seem
smart to me. That was the comment I was trying to make about Mark's
idea. Of course, it's pretty hard to predict what the actual economics
of Mark's proposal would wind up being. It may be that the popularity of
a work that would drive Mark to a second or third printing would
overcome the dilutive effect of introducing more copies onto the market.
As we all know, the valuation of works of art is pretty much entirely
subjective.

(By the way, an interesting book on this topic is "The Worth of Art:
Pricing the Priceless" by Judith Benhamou-Huet.)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/2843232848

-Jason
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: glewis4457@... [mailto:glewis4457@...] 

It has always been my understanding that you buy what you like and hope
for 
appreciation,  It is a bad strategy to try and second guess who will
become 
popular and appreciate and who will be a dud.  If you buy what you like
at 
least you will always have a piece of artwork that you like.

Jerry in Houston

Re: [Digital BW] Subject: RE: Editions: Another Dumb Idea...

2002-11-19 by Jerry Olson

Jason,

If ever I get to the point where I can get a thousand dollars for my
prints, I don't know what I'd do.  To get that thousand, a gallery would
have to charge $1600. And then there's the framing and glass charges. 
Since I never will have to worry about that, I don't now worry about it! :).

And how many of us can afford to run off 50 images on large paper for an edition?
Not me!! And what do you do with all the ones that don't sell?

Jerry
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Jerry,
> 
> I basically agree with you, and I certainly don't buy anything for my
> collection that I don't first and foremost truly love. But beyond some
> price point I'm not willing to simply pay whatever the price is for
> something without at least considering whether it is possibly overpriced
> or will potentially lose value. For instance, I once bought a piece at
> auction that I later found out was generally available on the retail
> market for about half of what I wound up paying. At the time, I was
> comfortable that my enjoyment of the piece would be worth the price I
> paid. But it was definitely a bad financial decision, because I could
> never recoup the money I invested if I ever needed to sell the piece for
> whatever reason.
> 
> My point being, even when you're buying something you love, you still
> have to give some consideration to whether you're spending your money
> wisely. Buying into a scheme that has the potential to decrease in value
> under the conditions where it would normally increase (i.e. a
> particularly good piece that winds up becoming popular) doesn't seem
> smart to me. That was the comment I was trying to make about Mark's
> idea. Of course, it's pretty hard to predict what the actual economics
> of Mark's proposal would wind up being. It may be that the popularity of
> a work that would drive Mark to a second or third printing would
> overcome the dilutive effect of introducing more copies onto the market.
> As we all know, the valuation of works of art is pretty much entirely
> subjective.
> 
> (By the way, an interesting book on this topic is "The Worth of Art:
> Pricing the Priceless" by Judith Benhamou-Huet.)
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/2843232848
> 
> -Jason
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: glewis4457@... [mailto:glewis4457@...]
> 
> It has always been my understanding that you buy what you like and hope
> for
> appreciation,  It is a bad strategy to try and second guess who will
> become
> popular and appreciate and who will be a dud.  If you buy what you like
> at
> least you will always have a piece of artwork that you like.
> 
> Jerry in Houston
> 
> 
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RE: [Digital BW] Subject: RE: Editions: Another Dumb Idea...

2002-11-20 by Jason DeFontes

I don't know, ask Mark, this whole thing was his stupid idea. :-)

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with the whole editioning thing, I was
just picking on the "multiple print runs, like book publishing" part of
his idea, specifically trying to make a point about the "investment"
perspective of the buyer, which was something he brought up in the
original post.

But since I've gotten myself in the middle of the conversation, I
suppose I should give my opinion. First, remember that I a) am a
painter, and b) have never sold, or tried to sell, any of my work (yet).
So my opinions aren't coming from the same place as someone who is
trying to make a living as a photographer. But I am an artist, and a
modest collector, and I try to keep up with what's going on in the art
market.

I don't think the idea of absolute identical consistency in an edition
is necessarily that important. There are plenty of artists whose
editions include considerable hand work which is never going to be
identical from print to print. Jim Dine comes to mind, and Judy Pfaff
(who has a kick-ass show at David Adamson in DC right now). On the other
hand, I don't think it makes sense for an edition to include prints that
vary dramatically in say size, or sepia vs. neutral as others have
suggested. It simply doesn't make sense for those prints to be
considered part of the edition; if they are not equivalent to the rest
of the prints in the edition then they can't be valued the same way, so
what's the point? But if you don't print the entire edition at once, I
don't think it's a huge deal, as long as you honor the contract that you
started when you numbered that first print 1 of X.

Personally however, I agree with Mark's sentiment about artistic
development. When I make a print, I print a small edition (like a
handful, or even one), then I put it away and put that work behind me.
I'm much more interested in the next thing I'm going to make than in
falling back on past successes. If I didn't make a big enough edition
for a "winner", well, then I'll just have to be content with the press
I'll get when the auction market goes nuts for them. ;-)

I don't have a problem with open editions, though it's not something I
think I would do myself. They serve a certain segment of the market, and
I respect the fact that a number of photographers make their livings
from them. As a buyer, I would have no problem spending up to a few
hundred dollars on an open edition print. (In fact, I've got my eye on
the work of a few fellow list members.) But when it comes to spending
serious money, I really want to know that after I buy my print the
artist isn't going to turn around and get a fleet of 7600s and start
selling prints on QVC for $69.95. A limited edition at least defines the
intended number of examples that will be on the market, and whether or
not an artist honors that defines their integrity.

-Jason
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...] 

Jason,

If ever I get to the point where I can get a thousand dollars for my
prints, I don't know what I'd do.  To get that thousand, a gallery would
have to charge $1600. And then there's the framing and glass charges. 
Since I never will have to worry about that, I don't now worry about it!
:).

And how many of us can afford to run off 50 images on large paper for an
edition?
Not me!! And what do you do with all the ones that don't sell?

Jerry

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