Digital BW, The Print

I'd like to know if serious silver printers print ALL of their entire 
edition at one time, in one run? 

I'm not talking about art fair guys; I'm talking about guys who are 
represented by galleries, who are selling prints for a grand and 
higher.

I know one guy that I can call today. I'll report back.

I just want to know if silver guys are printing "on demand", ie 
when they get an order, they make a print. If so, how could all of 
the prints in a given edition ever match? I'd think it would be quite 
impossible.

MT, http://marktucker.com/

Hi Mark,

Except for the misguided souls that "limit" their editions many of the successful photographer/printmakers (silver gelatin) I know or know about print on demand. They may print a goodly number at a session but when the box gets low there is no reticence to refill it. AA's printers were filling orders for his photographs for many many years after the photographs were first made. As an example, look at the history of prints made from the "Moonrise; Hernandez New Mexico 1941" negative and the pricing from before or after the negative was intensified. Strand's photos have been printed by a number of people over time etc. etc..

I think some of the squeeze in thinking comes from the common practice of lithographers and the like to deface their stones after pulling a number of prints from them. To some extent I wonder if that is a practical matter since it would be quite an undertaking to store x number of large rocks....  

To my thinking, limiting an edition is ego over pocketbook. If one is successful the prints will increase in value. Press prints of many famous photographs are readily available but it hasn't dropped the price of an "original" (what ever that may be) one whit.

Digital printing is a whole new game in some respects. Someone could easily hook up a bunch of printers to a fast computer and put out an enormous number of "originals." Even so, Unless it were a rotogravure press or the like the number isn't going to be astronomical and should have little effect on the ultimate pricing. The quality of the image and the print are, one would hope, the ultimate driving force.

Roger

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mark@...]
  Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 7:16 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Silver Printers: Printing for Editions?


  I'd like to know if serious silver printers print ALL of their entire 
  edition at one time, in one run? 

  I'm not talking about art fair guys; I'm talking about guys who are 
  represented by galleries, who are selling prints for a grand and 
  higher.

  I know one guy that I can call today. I'll report back.

  I just want to know if silver guys are printing "on demand", ie 
  when they get an order, they make a print. If so, how could all of 
  the prints in a given edition ever match? I'd think it would be quite 
  impossible.

  MT, http://marktucker.com/


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark,

I know you were asking about silver prints, but just as a point of
reference... I was discussing this issue once with Jon Cone, and he said
they print all their digital print editions at one time, because of
variations in paper/ink from one batch to the next, changes in
technology, etc. The only way to ensure they're identical is do them all
together when you've got all the materials in hand.

-Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mark@...] 

I'd like to know if serious silver printers print ALL of their entire 
edition at one time, in one run? 

I'm not talking about art fair guys; I'm talking about guys who are 
represented by galleries, who are selling prints for a grand and 
higher.

I know one guy that I can call today. I'll report back.

I just want to know if silver guys are printing "on demand", ie 
when they get an order, they make a print. If so, how could all of 
the prints in a given edition ever match? I'd think it would be quite 
impossible.

MT, http://marktucker.com/

That sounds ideal, but does he sit on them and not charge his client
until they order more? The whole point of the print on demand is to keep
the upfront cost down. I would love to print "all at one time" but my
customers can't anticipate how many and how fast they will sell them so
the "one at a time" gives them that opportunity not to loose their
shirt.
Mark

Jason DeFontes wrote:

>  Mark,
>
> I know you were asking about silver prints, but just as a point of
> reference... I was discussing this issue once with Jon Cone, and he
> said
> they print all their digital print editions at one time, because of
> variations in paper/ink from one batch to the next, changes in
> technology, etc. The only way to ensure they're identical is do them
> all
> together when you've got all the materials in hand.
>
> -Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mark@...]
>
> I'd like to know if serious silver printers print ALL of their entire
> edition at one time, in one run?
>
> I'm not talking about art fair guys; I'm talking about guys who are
> represented by galleries, who are selling prints for a grand and
> higher.
>
> I know one guy that I can call today. I'll report back.
>
> I just want to know if silver guys are printing "on demand", ie
> when they get an order, they make a print. If so, how could all of
> the prints in a given edition ever match? I'd think it would be quite
> impossible.
>
> MT, http://marktucker.com/
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Jason DeFontes" 
<jason@d...> wrote:
> Mark,
> I know you were asking about silver prints, but just as a point of
> reference... I was discussing this issue once with Jon Cone, 
and he said
> they print all their digital print editions at one time, because of
> variations in paper/ink from one batch to the next, changes in
> technology, etc. The only way to ensure they're identical is do 
them all
> together when you've got all the materials in hand.
_____________


Now THERE is a man with credibility. If this is true, he just got 
moved upward three giant notches in my Respect Book.

If he was in the Conventional Wisdom column in Newsweek, 
he'd have an "UP" arrow beside his name.

MT

<<--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Mark Savoia 
<mark@c...> wrote:
> That sounds ideal, but does he sit on them and not charge his 
client
> until they order more? The whole point of the print on demand 
is to keep
> the upfront cost down. I would love to print "all at one time" but 
my
> customers can't anticipate how many and how fast they will 
sell them so
> the "one at a time" gives them that opportunity not to loose their
> shirt.
> Mark

____________

You don't get it. It's not about keeping your costs down. It's about 
keeping your quality up. And also about maintaining your 
credibility.

I maintain if you're serious about entering the fine art market, 
then you've got to bring some solid rules and practices to the 
table.

If you're gonna live in the "Edition mentality", then the only true 
way to know that the edition is consistent is to print them all at 
once. (Whether you then trash the file is another conversation). 
That's what it means to be an Edition, at least to me. 

If you're gonna print "on demand", then I'd say you're one notch 
up from a commercial photo lab. You've deviated completely 
from the spirit of the artist; you're just an order taker.

If you don't want to play by those rules, then fine, no problem. I'd 
advise at that point to have Open Editions, lower prices, but then 
know that you're killing your future potential in the gallery world. 
Just try going for representation at a gallery, and tell them that 
you practice Open Editions, and see if they take you on.

Crafts fairs are one thing; galleries are quite another.

MT

I think he was referring to the prints that they publish at Cone
Editions, not the contract printing that they do for clients.

-Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Savoia [mailto:mark@...] 

That sounds ideal, but does he sit on them and not charge his client
until they order more? The whole point of the print on demand is to keep
the upfront cost down. I would love to print "all at one time" but my
customers can't anticipate how many and how fast they will sell them so
the "one at a time" gives them that opportunity not to loose their
shirt.
Mark

Jason DeFontes wrote:

>  Mark,
>
> I know you were asking about silver prints, but just as a point of
> reference... I was discussing this issue once with Jon Cone, and he
> said
> they print all their digital print editions at one time, because of
> variations in paper/ink from one batch to the next, changes in
> technology, etc. The only way to ensure they're identical is do them
> all
> together when you've got all the materials in hand.
>
> -Jason

> once. (Whether you then trash the file is another conversation).
> That's what it means to be an Edition, at least to me.
>

Mark,

It's an interesting discussion - I meant to ask on your initial post - in
your "manifesto" (sorry - too many syllables..) "trashing the file"? Are you
assuming the original is digital? If it's film, do you only trash the file,
so that if the original were re-scanned, re-worked etc, it would in essence
be a different edition of the image (unless I guess you used the identical
machines/calibration and recorded every action and key-stroke)- or do you
trash the neg too?

tim

At 8:44 AM -0700 11/18/02, Roger L Sopher wrote:
>Hi Mark,
>
>Except for the misguided souls that "limit" their editions many of 
>the successful photographer/printmakers (silver gelatin) I know or 
>know about print on demand. They may print a goodly number at a 
>session but when the box gets low there is no reticence to refill 
>it. ...
>
I think some of the squeeze in thinking comes from the common 
practice of lithographers and the like to deface their stones after 
pulling a number of prints from them. ....

>
>To my thinking, limiting an edition is ego over pocketbook. If one 
>is successful the prints will increase in value. Press prints of 
>many famous photographs are readily available but it hasn't dropped 
>the price of an "original" (what ever that may be) one whit.

>
>.... Unless it were a rotogravure press or the like the number isn't 
>going to be astronomical and should have little effect on the 
>ultimate pricing. The quality of the image and the print are, one 
>would hope, the ultimate driving force.
>
Roger

Roger, I agree with a lot of what you said.

Mark is being a super purist when he asks that all the printing for 
the edition/image be done in one 24 hour period then that is the end 
of it forever.  This won't work for the market as a whole.  It is 
only practical to print them on demand with a small initial batch.

Problem with this limited edition approach is unless you are A Adams 
at the top of your game and renown...the artist never gets anything 
but peanuts for the prints.  It takes time for a reputation to be 
built and prices to escalate....Galleries love the limited edition 
because they can sell and resell many times...the artist usually 
sells only once near the beginning of the cycle.  Unless you have the 
capital to print all those images and the space to inventory 
them...Mark's system is impractical..

What in the hell is wrong with technology and the issue of mechanical 
or digital reproduction.  After all there are different levels of 
this inkjet game.  There is a big gap between some kid with a pierced 
eyebrow printing prints for his school buddies for $5 each from a 
$200 Epson printer using dye inks and someone who has done a lot of 
testing to find an archival inkjet combination of paper and ink PLUS 
HAS THE ABILITY TO MAKE GREAT IMAGES.

Numbers are a self regulating thing.  If you flood the market with 
cheap reproductions, the value stays low.  If you limit it in some 
way, print on high end papers with archival inks,  the value will 
increase.

Painters make one painting and before the inkjet technology arrived 
could only sell to one client.  (I have seen several who repaint the 
same scene over and over again if the first on is very popular}  Now 
they can make a high end photo of the painting and sell lower priced 
inkjet prints to many people who love the work but can't afford the 
original.  What's wrong with that?

To hell with this Taliban Photography Gallery mentality.  They are 
stuck in the past as are most photo galleries that grew up in the 
past 25 years.  They worship the alter of SG, platinum and some 
alternative processes.. Find the progressive galleries that work in 
mixed media.

Bill Agee
-- 

bill agee studio
capistrano beach, ca / laguna beach, ca

http://www.redsilver.com

> I'd like to know if serious silver printers print ALL of their entire
> edition at one time, in one run?
>
> I'm not talking about art fair guys; I'm talking about guys who are
> represented by galleries, who are selling prints for a grand and
> higher.
>
> I know one guy that I can call today. I'll report back.
>
> I just want to know if silver guys are printing "on demand", ie
> when they get an order, they make a print. If so, how could all of
> the prints in a given edition ever match? I'd think it would be quite
> impossible.

I believe Ansel Adams printed limited edition portfolios of selected images,
and each run was printed in it's entirety. He only did this later on when
his career and gallery representation were well established. There's no
telling how many of these images were printed beforehand.

In a message dated 11/18/2002 8:31:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
mark@... writes:

> #1You don't get it. It's not about keeping your costs down. It's about 
> keeping your quality up. And also about maintaining your 
> credibility.
> 
> #2 I maintain if you're serious about entering the fine art market, 
> then you've got to bring some solid rules and practices to the 
> table.
> 
> # 3 If you're gonna live in the "Edition mentality", then the only true 
> way to know that the edition is consistent is to print them all at 
> once. (Whether you then trash the file is another conversation). 
> That's what it means to be an Edition, at least to me. 
> 
> #4 If you're gonna print "on demand", then I'd say you're one notch 
> up from a commercial photo lab. You've deviated completely 
> from the spirit of the artist; you're just an order taker.
> 
> #5 If you don't want to play by those rules, then fine, no problem. I'd 
> advise at that point to have Open Editions, lower prices, but then 
> know that you're killing your future potential in the gallery world. 
> Just try going for representation at a gallery, and tell them that 
> you practice Open Editions, and see if they take you on.
> 
> Crafts fairs are one thing; galleries are quite another.
> 
> MT
> #1. Hey if you sign it, it passed your quality control, and credibility 
> test  didn't it? Certainly you wouldn't sign a piece your not proud of. 
> Your signature is your own endorsement. Comercial work is ultimately 
> approved(or not)by the client paying for the work. This art gallery work or 
> personel work YOU decide what the final is eather the gallery likes your 
> choices or not. Its personal work remember! 
> #2  Solid practices, yes! Rules? hardly. Rules and creative photography 
> seem like a contradiction. You bring your images and print work to the 
> table, and your in or your out. A certain level of quality is expected as a 
> balance with the image. Countless images of the highest quality and 
> integrity have been rejected.
#3. Very rarely done. Except those that edition under 15 prints.
#4 Please! That's a little extreme don't you think. Print on demand does not 
mean there is no consistency. Its the same image after all! printed hopefully 
by the same person. Just have Nash Editions print your work, you get more 
money for the prints and have weaker blacks and more sales! And can have 
print on demand.
#5 Sure galleries like numbered prints! Its all for increasing the prices 
nothing more. There is an implication to the buyer that these are somewhat 
limited and that is why you have to pay more. I'll bet if they liked your 
work enough, the open editions would fly just fine.
Just tell them there are over 800 AA "moonrise" prints out there, Or that 
your in poor health and expected to die very soon :)
Sure there is a big difference in craft fair vs. galleries, craft fair 
editions run in the hundreds and galleries in the 10's. 
I know of a couple APIAD (living)blue chip photographers that have many 
editions of the same image. Silver, Platinum, Iris, Lightjet. There each 
different and should be editioned separately. When a customer buys a print 
from the gallery wall, they are expecting to get the one hanging, or one 
pretty close to the same if not identical.
So if they buy a silver print, that's what they expect to get, not an IRIS or 
platinum print.
Just because you get a gallery show booked doesn't mean your work is 
collectable, Collectors are actually a very small part of the contemporary 
gallery scene,
let your estate worry about collectors, work is really only collectable after 
there is no more available, as in death of an artist. People that tend to 
number there prints to 10 or less are going strictly for the collector market 
and trying to get lucky. Unless your Michael Kenna ;0) but he has a 20year 
exhibit history.
#6 Give them a nice print at a fair price with some assurance that there 
neighbor won't have the same image.
Mark, are there any living(or dead) photographers that follow your standards 
for editioning an credibility? names?
I really do no what your saying, only the highest standards are allowed at 
the gallery level and the market insures that.
Before you hang it ask why would someone buy or not buy this print. Not buy 
because the blacks are weak? maybe! but doubtful.
Time for my meds!
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Got it.
Mark

Jason DeFontes wrote:

>  I think he was referring to the prints that they publish at Cone
> Editions, not the contract printing that they do for clients.
>
> -Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Savoia [mailto:mark@...]
>
> That sounds ideal, but does he sit on them and not charge his client
> until they order more? The whole point of the print on demand is to
> keep
> the upfront cost down. I would love to print "all at one time" but my
> customers can't anticipate how many and how fast they will sell them
> so
> the "one at a time" gives them that opportunity not to loose their
> shirt.
> Mark
>
> Jason DeFontes wrote:
>
> >  Mark,
> >
> > I know you were asking about silver prints, but just as a point of
> > reference... I was discussing this issue once with Jon Cone, and he
> > said
> > they print all their digital print editions at one time, because of
> > variations in paper/ink from one batch to the next, changes in
> > technology, etc. The only way to ensure they're identical is do them
>
> > all
> > together when you've got all the materials in hand.
> >
> > -Jason
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Yes I have seen this too. Sort of like a custom notary embossed stamp. I have even seen it on silver prints. The tool can be made for you custom  with your own graphic/ edition #ering.
I think its very appropriate for art papers. I have thought about it alot just never got around to getting one.
Steve M.
In a message dated 11/19/2002 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, AZinn@... writes:

> Thank you Steve!!!  Welcome to Planet Earth.  
> 
> A bit of a change of subject.  I saw an excellent photo exhibit recently
> where the artist had a printer's chop (embossed symbol). It went near the
> bottom left, in the rebate, slightly overlapping the image. I thought it
> gave a kind of exclusive - extra classy finish. Can anyone elaborate on the
> professional use practice of that? Fine art (intaglio, 
> etc.) prints have
> them to indicate who did the printing. 
> 
> AZ
> 
> Build a Lookaround!
> The Lookaround Book.
> http://www.panoramacamera.us

Mark,

I'm not a silver printer, but you're asking the questions I struggled with
re my digital prints a couple of years ago.

I think that a legitimate limited edition must be printed up front, and not
on demand, whether it be silver or digital. There are just too many
variables involved to do otherwise and still be legit, IMHO. And this wastes
a lot of resources unnecessarily.

Because I take this point of view and because I want the freedom to change
an image or to print a different size if I choose to do so down the road,
I've decided against doing editions. I don't want to deal with the print
inventory that would be necessary and I don't want to limit my options with
previously sold images.

Plus, the technology that's available to us today makes it too easy for
issuers of editions to cheat. I just don't see any value in being associated
with such a concept. My stance may mean that I don't sell as many prints and
that they sell for less than they would if editioned. But there are
advantages: I avoid the need to keep all that inventory; I'm not associated
with what I consider a questionable marketing concept here in this new
century; and it just plain suits my needs.

I fully understand why the concept of editioning prints persists, but
sincerely believe that today's technology makes cheating far too easy for
those with an inclination to do so. The buyers' perceptions are critical to
the success of our market. However, as more and more people find it easier
and easier to reissue editioned prints, the value of the whole concept is
diminished. And this trend just reinforces the belief already held by many
that "it's just a matter of pushing a button."

I'm signing and dating my prints and print only on demand. It works for me,
but I understand why others have different needs and take different
approaches.

Tom Keesling
Intelligent Design, Inc.

At 01:54 PM 11/18/2002 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11/18/2002 8:31:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
>mark@... writes:
>
>> #1You don't get it. It's not about keeping your costs down. It's about 
>> keeping your quality up. And also about maintaining your 
>> credibility.
>> 
>> #2 I maintain if you're serious about entering the fine art market, 
>> then you've got to bring some solid rules and practices to the 
>> table.
>> 
>> # 3 If you're gonna live in the "Edition mentality", then the only true 
>> way to know that the edition is consistent is to print them all at 
>> once. (Whether you then trash the file is another conversation). 
>> That's what it means to be an Edition, at least to me. 
>> 
>> #4 If you're gonna print "on demand", then I'd say you're one notch 
>> up from a commercial photo lab. You've deviated completely 
>> from the spirit of the artist; you're just an order taker.
>> 
>> #5 If you don't want to play by those rules, then fine, no problem. I'd 
>> advise at that point to have Open Editions, lower prices, but then 
>> know that you're killing your future potential in the gallery world. 
>> Just try going for representation at a gallery, and tell them that 
>> you practice Open Editions, and see if they take you on.
>> 
>> Crafts fairs are one thing; galleries are quite another.
>> 
>> MT
>> #1. Hey if you sign it, it passed your quality control, and credibility 
>> test  didn't it? Certainly you wouldn't sign a piece your not proud of. 
>> Your signature is your own endorsement. Comercial work is ultimately 
>> approved(or not)by the client paying for the work. This art gallery work or 
>> personel work YOU decide what the final is eather the gallery likes your 
>> choices or not. Its personal work remember! 
>> #2  Solid practices, yes! Rules? hardly. Rules and creative photography 
>> seem like a contradiction. You bring your images and print work to the 
>> table, and your in or your out. A certain level of quality is expected as a 
>> balance with the image. Countless images of the highest quality and 
>> integrity have been rejected.
>#3. Very rarely done. Except those that edition under 15 prints.
>#4 Please! That's a little extreme don't you think. Print on demand does not 
>mean there is no consistency. Its the same image after all! printed hopefully 
>by the same person. Just have Nash Editions print your work, you get more 
>money for the prints and have weaker blacks and more sales! And can have 
>print on demand.
>#5 Sure galleries like numbered prints! Its all for increasing the prices 
>nothing more. There is an implication to the buyer that these are somewhat 
>limited and that is why you have to pay more. I'll bet if they liked your 
>work enough, the open editions would fly just fine.
>Just tell them there are over 800 AA "moonrise" prints out there, Or that 
>your in poor health and expected to die very soon :)
>Sure there is a big difference in craft fair vs. galleries, craft fair 
>editions run in the hundreds and galleries in the 10's. 
>I know of a couple APIAD (living)blue chip photographers that have many 
>editions of the same image. Silver, Platinum, Iris, Lightjet. There each 
>different and should be editioned separately. When a customer buys a print 
>from the gallery wall, they are expecting to get the one hanging, or one 
>pretty close to the same if not identical.
>So if they buy a silver print, that's what they expect to get, not an IRIS or 
>platinum print.
>Just because you get a gallery show booked doesn't mean your work is 
>collectable, Collectors are actually a very small part of the contemporary 
>gallery scene,
>let your estate worry about collectors, work is really only collectable after 
>there is no more available, as in death of an artist. People that tend to 
>number there prints to 10 or less are going strictly for the collector market 
>and trying to get lucky. Unless your Michael Kenna ;0) but he has a 20year 
>exhibit history.
>#6 Give them a nice print at a fair price with some assurance that there 
>neighbor won't have the same image.
>Mark, are there any living(or dead) photographers that follow your standards 
>for editioning an credibility? names?
>I really do no what your saying, only the highest standards are allowed at 
>the gallery level and the market insures that.
>Before you hang it ask why would someone buy or not buy this print. Not buy 
>because the blacks are weak? maybe! but doubtful.
>Time for my meds!
>Steve M.
>

Thank you Steve!!!  Welcome to Planet Earth.  

A bit of a change of subject.  I saw an excellent photo exhibit recently
where the artist had a printer's chop (embossed symbol). It went near the
bottom left, in the rebate, slightly overlapping the image. I thought it
gave a kind of exclusive - extra classy finish. Can anyone elaborate on the
professional use practice of that? Fine art (intaglio, etc.) prints have
them to indicate who did the printing. 

AZ

Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book.
http://www.panoramacamera.us

A print shop can make you a custom embosser with your own seal, logo, or whatever.

Like the ones a Notary Public uses.

Jerry



Alan Zinn wrote:

> 
> At 01:54 PM 11/18/2002 EST, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 11/18/2002 8:31:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> >mark@... writes:
> >
> >> #1You don't get it. It's not about keeping your costs down. It's about
> >> keeping your quality up. And also about maintaining your
> >> credibility.
> >>
> >> #2 I maintain if you're serious about entering the fine art market,
> >> then you've got to bring some solid rules and practices to the
> >> table.
> >>
> >> # 3 If you're gonna live in the "Edition mentality", then the only true
> >> way to know that the edition is consistent is to print them all at
> >> once. (Whether you then trash the file is another conversation).
> >> That's what it means to be an Edition, at least to me.
> >>
> >> #4 If you're gonna print "on demand", then I'd say you're one notch
> >> up from a commercial photo lab. You've deviated completely
> >> from the spirit of the artist; you're just an order taker.
> >>
> >> #5 If you don't want to play by those rules, then fine, no problem. I'd
> >> advise at that point to have Open Editions, lower prices, but then
> >> know that you're killing your future potential in the gallery world.
> >> Just try going for representation at a gallery, and tell them that
> >> you practice Open Editions, and see if they take you on.
> >>
> >> Crafts fairs are one thing; galleries are quite another.
> >>
> >> MT
> >> #1. Hey if you sign it, it passed your quality control, and credibility
> >> test  didn't it? Certainly you wouldn't sign a piece your not proud of.
> >> Your signature is your own endorsement. Comercial work is ultimately
> >> approved(or not)by the client paying for the work. This art gallery work or
> >> personel work YOU decide what the final is eather the gallery likes your
> >> choices or not. Its personal work remember!
> >> #2  Solid practices, yes! Rules? hardly. Rules and creative photography
> >> seem like a contradiction. You bring your images and print work to the
> >> table, and your in or your out. A certain level of quality is expected as a
> >> balance with the image. Countless images of the highest quality and
> >> integrity have been rejected.
> >#3. Very rarely done. Except those that edition under 15 prints.
> >#4 Please! That's a little extreme don't you think. Print on demand does not
> >mean there is no consistency. Its the same image after all! printed hopefully
> >by the same person. Just have Nash Editions print your work, you get more
> >money for the prints and have weaker blacks and more sales! And can have
> >print on demand.
> >#5 Sure galleries like numbered prints! Its all for increasing the prices
> >nothing more. There is an implication to the buyer that these are somewhat
> >limited and that is why you have to pay more. I'll bet if they liked your
> >work enough, the open editions would fly just fine.
> >Just tell them there are over 800 AA "moonrise" prints out there, Or that
> >your in poor health and expected to die very soon :)
> >Sure there is a big difference in craft fair vs. galleries, craft fair
> >editions run in the hundreds and galleries in the 10's.
> >I know of a couple APIAD (living)blue chip photographers that have many
> >editions of the same image. Silver, Platinum, Iris, Lightjet. There each
> >different and should be editioned separately. When a customer buys a print
> >from the gallery wall, they are expecting to get the one hanging, or one
> >pretty close to the same if not identical.
> >So if they buy a silver print, that's what they expect to get, not an IRIS or
> >platinum print.
> >Just because you get a gallery show booked doesn't mean your work is
> >collectable, Collectors are actually a very small part of the contemporary
> >gallery scene,
> >let your estate worry about collectors, work is really only collectable after
> >there is no more available, as in death of an artist. People that tend to
> >number there prints to 10 or less are going strictly for the collector market
> >and trying to get lucky. Unless your Michael Kenna ;0) but he has a 20year
> >exhibit history.
> >#6 Give them a nice print at a fair price with some assurance that there
> >neighbor won't have the same image.
> >Mark, are there any living(or dead) photographers that follow your standards
> >for editioning an credibility? names?
> >I really do no what your saying, only the highest standards are allowed at
> >the gallery level and the market insures that.
> >Before you hang it ask why would someone buy or not buy this print. Not buy
> >because the blacks are weak? maybe! but doubtful.
> >Time for my meds!
> >Steve M.
> >
> 
> Thank you Steve!!!  Welcome to Planet Earth.
> 
> A bit of a change of subject.  I saw an excellent photo exhibit recently
> where the artist had a printer's chop (embossed symbol). It went near the
> bottom left, in the rebate, slightly overlapping the image. I thought it
> gave a kind of exclusive - extra classy finish. Can anyone elaborate on the
> professional use practice of that? Fine art (intaglio, etc.) prints have
> them to indicate who did the printing.
> 
> AZ
> 
> Build a Lookaround!
> The Lookaround Book.
> http://www.panoramacamera.us
> 
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I think I have to agree with Tom, as much as I enjoy Mark's passionate 
writing. Photography has some unique advantages. The first is that it 
CAN be democratic. That is, unlike a painting, many, many people can 
own an "original." I have revisited images from over ten years ago and 
found a new way to print/crop them. To call the new interpretation a 
new image, thus entitled to its own edition, sounds dishonest, to me.

The concept of editions, it seems to me, would bar me from 
retrospection and reinterpretation. Yes, "go forward" but not blindly 
and not without looking back and perhaps seeing something new. 
Photography allows that, but not if one goes about destroying slides, 
negatives or digital files. Photography can be art. It is not, however, 
painting, sculpture or any other "one off" medium.

Peace, Jim, San Diego

On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 08:49 AM, Thomas Keesling wrote:

> Mark,
>
> I'm not a silver printer, but you're asking the questions I struggled 
> with
> re my digital prints a couple of years ago.
>
> I think that a legitimate limited edition must be printed up front, 
> and not
> on demand, whether it be silver or digital. There are just too many
> variables involved to do otherwise and still be legit, IMHO. And this 
> wastes
> a lot of resources unnecessarily.
>
> Because I take this point of view and because I want the freedom to 
> change
> an image or to print a different size if I choose to do so down the 
> road,
> I've decided against doing editions. I don't want to deal with the 
> print
> inventory that would be necessary and I don't want to limit my options 
> with
> previously sold images.
>
> Plus, the technology that's available to us today makes it too easy for
> issuers of editions to cheat. I just don't see any value in being 
> associated
> with such a concept. My stance may mean that I don't sell as many 
> prints and
> that they sell for less than they would if editioned. 

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