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Digital BW, The Print

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More on 'posterization again'

More on 'posterization again'

2002-12-01 by Benjamin C. Pierce

Following up my own query from a couple of days ago about posterization
effects from the MIS sepia inks...

I've continued experimenting and have been able to produce some better
results, though without a systematic understanding of how to do it
reliably.  Some observations I've made in the process:

* I discovered I had two settings that were not identical to the "canonical
  recommendations" that various people posted.  
     1) I was using the PQIJ paper setting, not Heavyweight Matte.
     2) My color profile was still set to the PS default (which is
        suitable for web graphics and apparently has a small gamut)
        rather than Adobe RGB 1998.  
  My sense is that the first setting doesn't matter much, but that the
  second does -- at least, the on-screen image after applying the Rourk
  [not Rourke, as I wrote in my last message: sorry Paul] curves looks
  significantly more colorful and with smoother gradations now.

* After some poking around (using the Info tool) in one particular image
  where the posterization was especially bad, it seemed as though the
  worst-affected areas were maxed-out (value=255) in the green channel.
  So a hypothesis for where the posterization effect could be coming from
  might be that the Epson driver is somehow trying too hard to make those
  areas "really green" and ignoring the information from the other two
  channels.

  I don't know anything about what the Epson driver is actually doing
  internally, so it's hard to evaluate this hypothesis.  But it seems
  consistent with the observation (posted by several people) that
  overlaying an "un-Roark'd" (B/W) copy or two of the image on top of the
  one with the curves applied will sometimes mitigate the posterization
  effect, since this extra layer will dampen the bright green to
  something less than the max value.

* I also noticed that the images giving me trouble tended to be
  less-than-ideal scans, which had required some non-trivial levels
  adjustments to make them look good on the screen.  Obviously, the
  levels adjustment will have introduced some posterization in the file
  itself, and this seems to be somehow getting picked up and enormously
  magnified by the final stages of the workflow (either the curves or the
  Epson driver).

* The posterization I was observing does *not* seem to have anything do
  with inks bleeding once they are on the paper (as I thought it might):
  if I crop a small region of the image and then print it at the same
  size as the original, the posterized regions just scale.

All in all, I must say I've found the experience of working with the MIS
inks and partitioned workflow rather frustrating so far -- there seem to
be a *lot* of hidden variables.  I'm inclined to give up for the moment
and have a try with the piezo driver and inks, in hopes of getting a bit
more direct control over the process.  Fortunately, I do have a few
really gorgeous prints to show for my efforts.  (In particular, some
nudes where, ironically, a little bit of posterization has a very
interesting effect, changing the look to something closer to marble than
flesh.)

     -- Benjamin

RE: [Digital BW] More on 'posterization again'

2002-12-02 by Murray Zaharia

Benjamin

I would say that seeing as you have found a few errors in your workflow
that your problems are indeed of your own making. Many (most) using the
VM inks with Paul's curves are having great results. I finally just
loaded my first VMS inkset in my 1270 and my first print was nothing
short of excellent. (I followed printing instructions to the letter) I
would suggest before moving on to Piezography and its own problems,that
you figure out what you are doing wrong with this workflow.

*****
Subject: [Digital BW] More on 'posterization again'

Following up my own query from a couple of days ago about posterization
effects from the MIS sepia inks...


     -- Benjamin

RE: [Digital BW] More on 'posterization again'

2002-12-02 by Murray Zaharia

Benjamin

I am going to eat my words on my answer to your post previously. Sorry.
After further playing around and reading your past posts, I am finding
that I am having pretty well the exact problems you mention. Some prints
are perfect and some areas of others are featureless and seem posterized
as you mentioned. (Epson Archival Matte) I also see the greens in the
info palette maxing out at 255 in the worst affected areas after
applying Paul's curve. Some areas print perfect and others in the same
print are wacky as you describe. The detail is definitely there in my
files. They are digital files with full histograms. I hope someone can
enlighten us as to what is going on. I can send someone a file to try as
well to check if they get the same results.


***********

Following up my own query from a couple of days ago about posterization
effects from the MIS sepia inks...


     -- Benjamin

Re: [Digital BW] More on 'posterization again'

2002-12-02 by Julian Thomas

Murray - I've not used VM but I have played with RGB workflows and I suggest
you do the following:
Printout Paul's 25step wedge. Let it dry. Scan it. Then using the 'info'
tools measure all the wedges - including the individual wedges for 0-5 and
100-95%. use the eyedropper on 3x3. If you see deviations, go into the
individual curves and adjust as necessary. Initially (cos it is easier) just
do a greyscale curves move to compensate - if it is too complicated a
problem you'll need to get into the 'real' Roark curves

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Zaharia" <zaharia@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] More on 'posterization again'


> Benjamin
>
> I am going to eat my words on my answer to your post previously. Sorry.
> After further playing around and reading your past posts, I am finding
> that I am having pretty well the exact problems you mention. Some prints
> are perfect and some areas of others are featureless and seem posterized
> as you mentioned. (Epson Archival Matte) I also see the greens in the
> info palette maxing out at 255 in the worst affected areas after
> applying Paul's curve. Some areas print perfect and others in the same
> print are wacky as you describe. The detail is definitely there in my
> files. They are digital files with full histograms. I hope someone can
> enlighten us as to what is going on. I can send someone a file to try as
> well to check if they get the same results.
>
>
> ***********
>
> Following up my own query from a couple of days ago about posterization
> effects from the MIS sepia inks...
>
>
>      -- Benjamin
>
>
>
>
>
>
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VMS curves question and problem - Paul, others?

2002-12-02 by Murray Zaharia

RE: [Digital BW] More on 'posterization again'

This is going back to the above thread.

 I have printed out the 100 step greyscale wedge (Alex Pettit from
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Image%2
0processing/ ) on my 1270 loaded with a new set of VMS inks in a CIS
onto Epson Archival matte paper. I had areas of my prints with no detail
that is clearly there on my file. It was in areas from approx 50 to 100
in the info pallet. This is confirmed on my printout of the above
mentioned greyscale wedge. There is NO visual differentiation between
any individual squares between 54 and 99 (info pallet) on the greyscale
wedge that I printed out. I also scanned the greyscale wedge printout
and checked it out with the dropper (3x3 sample) in Photoshop as well
and it confirms the same.

 What is going on here? I can't see anyone being happy with this lack of
detail and the posterized look that results. Is there a possibility that
the curves are corrupted or something? Can the curves be adjusted to fix
this? I just cannot see that Paul would have been happy with these
results in the first place, therefore something must not be right.

My settings in Photoshop 7:

Working Space: Adobe RGB
Gray: Gray Gamma 2.2
Print Space: Printer Color Management

I am following to the letter Paul's instructions for his curves.

I am using an Epson 1270 with the proper 1270 curve (vm70-NCA-w1) and
printing on Epson Archival Matte paper.

Driver settings:
Matte Paper - Heavyweight
1440 dpi
High Quality Halftoning
Microweave on
High Speed off
No Color Adjustment

I have perfect nozzle checks as well.

Re: [Digital BW] VMS curves question and problem - Paul, others?

2002-12-03 by Sam A. McCandless

Have you by any chance, Murray, printed any step tests with_out_ 
curving the image file at all?

When I first put the VM Sepia-Neutral ink set in one of my 1160s, I 
printed (on EAM) Paul's then relatively new 21-step test file five 
times. Once with each of the four curves on purpose. And once by 
mistake with no curve at all.

All five looked good to me except that only on the mistake was the 
darkest step obviously darker than the next-to-last step. The mistake 
also printed lighter than the other four, curved files did. And in 
warmth the mistake was in between the two curves which lie in the 
middle between sepia and neutral.

When these warm-and-light traits are welcome, I often print with no 
curve. And in addition to better shadows, I sometimes also get more 
fine detail, e.g., in grasses, twigs, etc. But when printing without 
a curve from a "real" RGB file (not a GS file converted to RGB), I 
also get more color in the print that I would have thought the S-N 
ink jet could produce. Sometimes I like it; sometimes I don't.

Good as they sometimes are, I wouldn't want to be restricted to 
un-curved prints. But if it works for you, it might help you get some 
prints done while you sort out why the curves don't help.

Sam


>RE: [Digital BW] More on 'posterization again'
>
>This is going back to the above thread.
>
> I have printed out the 100 step greyscale wedge (Alex Pettit from
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Image%2
>0processing/ ) on my 1270 loaded with a new set of VMS inks in a CIS
>onto Epson Archival matte paper. I had areas of my prints with no detail
>that is clearly there on my file. It was in areas from approx 50 to 100
>in the info pallet. This is confirmed on my printout of the above
>mentioned greyscale wedge. There is NO visual differentiation between
>any individual squares between 54 and 99 (info pallet) on the greyscale
>wedge that I printed out. I also scanned the greyscale wedge printout
>and checked it out with the dropper (3x3 sample) in Photoshop as well
>and it confirms the same.
>
> What is going on here? I can't see anyone being happy with this lack of
>detail and the posterized look that results. Is there a possibility that
>the curves are corrupted or something? Can the curves be adjusted to fix
>this? I just cannot see that Paul would have been happy with these
>results in the first place, therefore something must not be right.
>
>My settings in Photoshop 7:
>
>Working Space: Adobe RGB
>Gray: Gray Gamma 2.2
>Print Space: Printer Color Management
>
>I am following to the letter Paul's instructions for his curves.
>
>I am using an Epson 1270 with the proper 1270 curve (vm70-NCA-w1) and
>printing on Epson Archival Matte paper.
>
>Driver settings:
>Matte Paper - Heavyweight
>1440 dpi
>High Quality Halftoning
>Microweave on
>High Speed off
>No Color Adjustment
>
>I have perfect nozzle checks as well.

["Murray Zaharia" <zaharia@...>]

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