Digital BW, The Print

I post this to this list as you are the most elite like I am aware of
in these matters. Almost all of the scanning I do is with a film
scanner, but the rare instance of some treasured family photos that
are over 50 years old are now briefly with me for flatbed scanning.

I am using a good quality Epson Expression 636 flatbed, with VueScan
and alternately the Epson 3.42a TWAIN directly into PS 7. In Vuescan
24bit and 48 bit color and 24 bit and 48 bit B&W. Likewise TWAIN into
PS 7. Overkill, I know, but I am trying everything so as not to have
to hand color at the outset.

Regardless of what I do, to this point, I get a white translucent
covering to the scanned digital file, over some of the image. Perhaps
70% of the image. This over the portions of black that seem to have
been ?hand painted? on the original photo paper.

I note the actual BW photo, which was apparently HAND
enhanced/?painted?, by, I am told, a WWII European refugee who set up
a photo studio and did the enhancements in an old world manner of
which I am not familiar.

The likely enhancements/paint portions, when viewing the BW photo on
an angle, show a different (shiny) reflective capacity to the
remainder of the photo, and this is what I have the impression is
causing the white-ish equivalent of dried soapy white translucence in
the digital scan file preview and image.

Before I give up and start attempting to hand color in Photoshop, I am
posting this in case one or more of you wise experts knows of a way to
mitigate or eliminate the presumed reflective anomaly, which is
causing the white translucence over the part of the photo that were
hand tinted with a perhaps silvery paint, of which I am seeing in the
digital scan file.

I wish to be able to do the scan and have the BW (or color file) end
up without the translucence and the blacks be ? on the digital file ?
black.

Thanks, I look forward to any responses.

J. F.  Johnson

I post this to this list as you are the most elite like I am aware of
in these matters. Almost all of the scanning I do is with a film
scanner, but the rare instance of some treasured family photos that
are over 50 years old are now briefly with me for flatbed scanning.

I am using a good quality Epson Expression 636 flatbed, with VueScan
and alternately the Epson 3.42a TWAIN directly into PS 7. In Vuescan
24bit and 48 bit color and 24 bit and 48 bit B&W. Likewise TWAIN into
PS 7. Overkill, I know, but I am trying everything so as not to have
to hand color at the outset.

Regardless of what I do, to this point, I get a white translucent
covering to the scanned digital file, over some of the image. Perhaps
70% of the image. This over the portions of black that seem to have
been ?hand painted? on the original photo paper.

I note the actual BW photo, which was apparently HAND
enhanced/?painted?, by, I am told, a WWII European refugee who set up
a photo studio and did the enhancements in an old world manner of
which I am not familiar.

The likely enhancements/paint portions, when viewing the BW photo on
an angle, show a different (shiny) reflective capacity to the
remainder of the photo, and this is what I have the impression is
causing the white-ish equivalent of dried soapy white translucence in
the digital scan file preview and image.

Before I give up and start attempting to hand color in Photoshop, I am
posting this in case one or more of you wise experts knows of a way to
mitigate or eliminate the presumed reflective anomaly, which is
causing the white translucence over the part of the photo that were
hand tinted with a perhaps silvery paint, of which I am seeing in the
digital scan file.

I wish to be able to do the scan and have the BW (or color file) end
up without the translucence and the blacks be ? on the digital file ?
black.

Thanks, I look forward to any responses.

J. F.  Johnson

Jerry:
I had one of my students (from Bosnia) bring some old family photographs
which had the same phenomenon. After trying all manner of incantations,
scanning with the reflective holder on an Imacon 848, eye of newt, etc,
we went back to old tech. Put the print on a copy stand with polarized
lights, shot a 4x5 transparency and scanned that. Lovely result. I'm
sure you didn't want to hear this but perhaps someone else on the list
has a better solution (I'd love to hear it)
 
 

Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.
Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops

215 751-8320
sshire@...

-----Original Message-----
From: jerry78008 <photo29@...> [mailto:photo29@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:53 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Unusual BW scanning phenomena. Viewpoints
solicited...



I post this to this list as you are the most elite like I am aware of
in these matters. Almost all of the scanning I do is with a film
scanner, but the rare instance of some treasured family photos that
are over 50 years old are now briefly with me for flatbed scanning.

I am using a good quality Epson Expression 636 flatbed, with VueScan
and alternately the Epson 3.42a TWAIN directly into PS 7. In Vuescan
24bit and 48 bit color and 24 bit and 48 bit B&W. Likewise TWAIN into
PS 7. Overkill, I know, but I am trying everything so as not to have
to hand color at the outset.

Regardless of what I do, to this point, I get a white translucent
covering to the scanned digital file, over some of the image. Perhaps
70% of the image. This over the portions of black that seem to have
been ?hand painted? on the original photo paper.

I note the actual BW photo, which was apparently HAND
enhanced/?painted?, by, I am told, a WWII European refugee who set up
a photo studio and did the enhancements in an old world manner of
which I am not familiar.

The likely enhancements/paint portions, when viewing the BW photo on
an angle, show a different (shiny) reflective capacity to the
remainder of the photo, and this is what I have the impression is
causing the white-ish equivalent of dried soapy white translucence in
the digital scan file preview and image.

Before I give up and start attempting to hand color in Photoshop, I am
posting this in case one or more of you wise experts knows of a way to
mitigate or eliminate the presumed reflective anomaly, which is
causing the white translucence over the part of the photo that were
hand tinted with a perhaps silvery paint, of which I am seeing in the
digital scan file.

I wish to be able to do the scan and have the BW (or color file) end
up without the translucence and the blacks be ? on the digital file ?
black.

Thanks, I look forward to any responses.

J. F.  Johnson



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I'm
> sure you didn't want to hear this but perhaps someone else on the list
> has a better solution (I'd love to hear it)

Just use a decent digital camera.....  As long as you aren't going to blow
it up to huge proportions, no big deal.

I've done this many times for repro'ing stuff offsite and/or when it
wouldn't scan right.

HTH,

-- 
Blair 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Stan.
The very fact that you encountered quite the same reflective phenomena
as I did, is rather, perhaps surprising as it may sound, comforting. 
Particularly with the resources and expertise you have at your beck
and call.
If the eye of the Newt will not do it?. my hoof of the toad is not
likely to.
There may be someone amongst us who has an extra incantational element
that might succeed, and thus I will wait.
The print is an 8X10. I do not have a 4x5 camera handy, but even a
35mm has some hope, with digital enhancement after negative scanning. 
Then there is the later digital painting prospect, but the white
translucence covers a variety of BW shades and clothing detail. 
Gratefully awaiting further response.
JFJ
(I modify from the Jerry moniker in deference to the esteemed Jerry Olsen)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shire,Stanley"
<sshire@c...> wrote:

> Jerry:
> I had one of my students (from Bosnia) bring some old family photographs
> which had the same phenomenon. After trying all manner of incantations,
> scanning with the reflective holder on an Imacon 848, eye of newt, etc,
> we went back to old tech. Put the print on a copy stand with polarized
> lights, shot a 4x5 transparency and scanned that. Lovely result. I'm
> sure you didn't want to hear this but perhaps someone else on the list
> has a better solution (I'd love to hear it)
>  
>  
> 
> Stan Shire
> Associate Professor/Department Chair
> Photographic Imaging
> Community College of Philadelphia
> Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.
> Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops
> 
> 215 751-8320
> sshire@c...
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jerry78008 <photo29@p...> [mailto:photo29@p...] 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:53 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Unusual BW scanning phenomena. Viewpoints
> solicited...
> 
> 
> 
> I post this to this list as you are the most elite like I am aware of
> in these matters. Almost all of the scanning I do is with a film
> scanner, but the rare instance of some treasured family photos that
> are over 50 years old are now briefly with me for flatbed scanning.
> 
> I am using a good quality Epson Expression 636 flatbed, with VueScan
> and alternately the Epson 3.42a TWAIN directly into PS 7. In Vuescan
> 24bit and 48 bit color and 24 bit and 48 bit B&W. Likewise TWAIN into
> PS 7. Overkill, I know, but I am trying everything so as not to have
> to hand color at the outset.
> 
> Regardless of what I do, to this point, I get a white translucent
> covering to the scanned digital file, over some of the image. Perhaps
> 70% of the image. This over the portions of black that seem to have
> been ?hand painted? on the original photo paper.
> 
> I note the actual BW photo, which was apparently HAND
> enhanced/?painted?, by, I am told, a WWII European refugee who set up
> a photo studio and did the enhancements in an old world manner of
> which I am not familiar.
> 
> The likely enhancements/paint portions, when viewing the BW photo on
> an angle, show a different (shiny) reflective capacity to the
> remainder of the photo, and this is what I have the impression is
> causing the white-ish equivalent of dried soapy white translucence in
> the digital scan file preview and image.
> 
> Before I give up and start attempting to hand color in Photoshop, I am
> posting this in case one or more of you wise experts knows of a way to
> mitigate or eliminate the presumed reflective anomaly, which is
> causing the white translucence over the part of the photo that were
> hand tinted with a perhaps silvery paint, of which I am seeing in the
> digital scan file.
> 
> I wish to be able to do the scan and have the BW (or color file) end
> up without the translucence and the blacks be ? on the digital file ?
> black.
> 
> Thanks, I look forward to any responses.
> 
> J. F.  Johnson

Jerry - I'm not sure if this is the cause of your problem, but:  Many times
a photo or a piece of artwork with a glossy surface will have a great deal
of light scattered over the surface when it is put in a copy situation or
directly on the bed of a scanner.  What you may have to do is to shoot the
original (using either film or a digital camera) with a polarizing filter
over the lens AND the lights that you use.  This allows you to rotate the
filter on the camera until you can see that all glare on the surface of the
print being copied is cancelled out.  You can then scan the film or work
with the digital file.

When you use such a set-up you will need to take a light reading through the
lens and filter, if you're using a camera with a through-the-lens meter, or
else use a hand-held meter and add two f/stops worth of light to compensate
for what the polarizing filter on the lens cuts out.

Thanks Stephen, I did get some degree of relief in moving the
?brightness? slider all the way down to its lowest limit in Vuescan.
However that does reduce the otherwise lovely and sharp scan, which
takes place when brightness is left in the normal position. The Epson
Twain closest equivalent is the Highlight slider.
There would obviously be a generation lost in the re-shooting of the
photo itself, however, I am going to do that and let you know how it
turned out.
Thanks,
JFJ

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen
Petegorsky <petegorsky@e...> wrote:
> Jerry - I'm not sure if this is the cause of your problem, but: 
Many times
> a photo or a piece of artwork with a glossy surface will have a
great deal
> of light scattered over the surface when it is put in a copy
situation or
> directly on the bed of a scanner.  What you may have to do is to
shoot the
> original (using either film or a digital camera) with a polarizing
filter
> over the lens AND the lights that you use.  This allows you to
rotate the
> filter on the camera until you can see that all glare on the surface
of the
> print being copied is cancelled out.  You can then scan the film or
work
> with the digital file.
> 
> When you use such a set-up you will need to take a light reading
through the
> lens and filter, if you're using a camera with a through-the-lens
meter, or
> else use a hand-held meter and add two f/stops worth of light to
compensate
> for what the polarizing filter on the lens cuts out.

Hello Jerry,

Just a thought - flatbeds generally have big depth of field.  Perhaps
putting something under one edge to raise it slightly and give it a
bit of tilt would keep the reflected light out of the CCD and still
not be out of focus...

Regards, - cj

Thanks Stephen, I did get some degree of relief in moving the
?brightness? slider all the way down to its lowest limit in Vuescan.
However that does reduce the otherwise lovely and sharp scan, which
takes place when brightness is left in the normal position. The Epson
Twain closest equivalent is the Highlight slider.
There would obviously be a generation lost in the re-shooting of the
photo itself, however, I am going to do that and let you know how it
turned out.
Thanks,
JFJ

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen
Petegorsky <petegorsky@e...> wrote:
> Jerry - I'm not sure if this is the cause of your problem, but: 
Many times
> a photo or a piece of artwork with a glossy surface will have a
great deal
> of light scattered over the surface when it is put in a copy
situation or
> directly on the bed of a scanner.  What you may have to do is to
shoot the
> original (using either film or a digital camera) with a polarizing
filter
> over the lens AND the lights that you use.  This allows you to
rotate the
> filter on the camera until you can see that all glare on the surface
of the
> print being copied is cancelled out.  You can then scan the film or
work
> with the digital file.
> 
> When you use such a set-up you will need to take a light reading
through the
> lens and filter, if you're using a camera with a through-the-lens
meter, or
> else use a hand-held meter and add two f/stops worth of light to
compensate
> for what the polarizing filter on the lens cuts out.