Digital BW, The Print

Hello List Moderators!

Just another opinion here...from one who admires your intentions and your sacrifice of time to get this list going. 

But, this list is becoming too much (in my opinion) a list of manufacturers and ink reps touting their products again and again.  

I have respect for Robert Rex, Paul Roark and I am sure I would respect some of the others too, but my email box has been loaded lately with nothing but ink/curve/ink comments from people who are in the business of selling the stuff, users or not.  If I were really all that interested in MIS inks I would go to the MIS site and look for "their list."  Same with Piezo.  Same with other stuff too.  Paul Roark is a dedicated man who knows his stuff and is kind enough to answer his questions in detail (thanks Paul). Robert Rex has access to guys who know stuff about paper.   But there is a fine line that has been crossed numerous times lately. 

That has changed how I see this fledgling list.  

Not only that, there is one subscriber whose postings always have a "soft spam" advertisement on his posts....that also is beyond what I would expect on this kind of list.  I seem to see dozens of his messages that scream (and I quote here):

Make Your Site SELL! (MYSS!)
The best art in the world is useless......if you can't sell it.
What's the point of traffic...if no one's buying your art?
Order MYSS! TODAY... increase your sales TOMORROW
http://myss.sitesell.com/artists.html

That is about as annoying as the "Lose Weight Now!"  Lose 20 pounds etc....ads that show up on the other list. 



Hey guys, take control of your list.  

And keep the marketing hype off this list.  Otherwise, you are no better than a tool for ink reps and paper reps etc...

With sincere intent and best wishes for you and your list,
Steadman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> I have respect for Robert Rex, Paul Roark and I am sure I 
would respect some of the others too, but my email box has 
been loaded lately with nothing but ink/curve/ink comments from 
people who are in the business of selling the stuff, users or not.

Steadman (and others),

If your Inbox is getting swamped, you can also choose the "No 
Email" option. That way, you can just go to the website and read 
what seems pertinent to you. There's no email at all. Just go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

and click "Edit My Membership". Then choose the "No Email" 
radio button.

I do it that way for the same reason; I'd get buried in mail. Or, you 
can choose Digest, to get one email per day, that's made up of 
all the prior days' posts.

> But, this list is becoming too much (in my opinion) a list of manufacturers
> and ink reps touting their products again and again.

I don't have the energy to post at length today, what with my proximity to
NYC, and my loved ones who live and work there, but I disagree completely.

This list is fine. Some days/weeks it will seem very pertinent to your
concerns (Steadman what are you looking for here? You've never voiced
anything but love and admiration for your Piezo system (which is great for
you!), but you don't strike me as someone who is interested in alternative
technologies in the first place,) and other times it will be less so. Is it
in Robert Rex's interest to explain the benefits of Crane papers? Yes. Has
it been a valuable education? It has for me. Indelible inks did not come
here spamming; an interested list member (of high esteem and no commercial
interest) brought them up. I invited Paul Roark to join this list (I would
have begged him if necessary), because I was a user of his approach, but
felt no comfortable home to discuss the process. At the time, I knew of all
of two MIS VM users: Paul and Jerry. Was I interested in them as a low cost
alternative to Piezo inks? Heck yeah.

I don't know what kind of list anyone else envisaged, but here we get to
hear of Phil Bards trials with A&I, Antonis' comparative data base is in
fair play, MIS and Piezo are discussed freely on the same list, as is
FullSpectrum Inks, and now the color inksets are getting some airplay.
Consumers and dealers are given open mikes to state the benefits and
shortcomings of products as they see it. What else? What else do we need?

Well, I've already gone on longer than I thought I would. I just see it as a
democracy here, in a capitalistic country. The only thing that's bothered me
lately is the shrillness with which people are greeting early word of a
possibly promising new inkset, which doesn't even look to be targeted at the
fine art single user market, just yet. Seems to me it's 15 minutes of fame
here will pass soon enough, unless it really is a winner. How long where we
primed before Color Piezo was ready? What about it's DRIVER? What about
their "Selenium" inks? What about Epson Colorlife Paper? OR....Epson's BW
printer?

I think Martin and Antonis have done a great job. I think it's been a very
successful first 5 weeks, and I think their open market philosophy is right
on the money. While I don't love spam, I do like being informed of what's
available in the marketplace, and of each products strengths and weaknesses.
As I said on the piezo list when the Jon Cone spoke raising his axe, a small
bit of errant spam is a far lesser evil than systematic censorship.

Todd

Steadman,

Basically participation of the manufacturers and vendors was 
something we planned in from the beginning. The idea was that they 
would all be on an equal footing and would not control the list. We 
spent a lot of time laying it out and it is in Post #1.

So far we have had posts from Lincoln Inks, Crane Paper (Robert Rex), 
Legion Paper, Hawk Mountain Papers, Indelible Inks (only after people 
started posting about info on their list) and Robert Morrison who has 
a coating under development with Brightcube if I am not mistaken. 
Paul Roark does not work for MIS. Let me know if I missed someone.

No one from MIS has ever posted on this list to my knowledge. I 
invited both Bob Zeiss and Jon Cone to post and both declined. All 
the MIS posts have been from users. All I can say is that there has 
been a lot of interest. MIS doesn't have a list and most of the MIS 
users were apparently lurking on the Piezo list and then moved over 
here. Indelible Inks does have a list. I would like to see some more 
diversity myself and I try to promote other threads as they come 
along but I can't create it if the interest is not there. I am very 
surprised there is not more discussion about Piezo. The current poll 
shows that of the ink sets in use by the group Piezo is about 40% and 
the various MIS quads 33%.

The rules are that someone can promote their product to the list if 
it is related to making B&W (including monochromes such as sepia, 
etc.) prints, they respond to questions about their products, they 
create a link on their website to this group to help ensure a 
steady flow of new members, and hopefully share their expertise in 
general.

Quite frankly it is likely to be the smaller, newer companies who 
post because it is a real gamble. They have a very good chance of 
getting shredded.

The "Make Your Site SELL! (MYSS!)" issue is another matter and I will 
ask politely that the person (I need to check back and see who.) 
remove this from their posts. Any promotion of a product not related 
to B&W digital printing is considered SPAM.

In all sincerity the list is about as under control, as I would like 
it to be. Hopefully Antonis and I could both go off on vacation for a 
month and you all could sort it out amongst yourselves. It was meant 
to be a group largely moderated by the users with any intervention by 
Antonis or myself, a last ditch effort.

Not what you wanted to hear but I hope you understand our position.

Thanks,

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> Hello List Moderators!
> 
> Just another opinion here...from one who admires your intentions 
and your sacrifice of time to get this list going. 
> 
> But, this list is becoming too much (in my opinion) a list of 
manufacturers and ink reps touting their products again and again.  
> 
> I have respect for Robert Rex, Paul Roark and I am sure I would 
respect some of the others too, but my email box has been loaded 
lately with nothing but ink/curve/ink comments from people who are in 
the business of selling the stuff, users or not.  If I were really 
all that interested in MIS inks I would go to the MIS site and look 
for "their list."  Same with Piezo.  Same with other stuff too.  Paul 
Roark is a dedicated man who knows his stuff and is kind enough to 
answer his questions in detail (thanks Paul). Robert Rex has access 
to guys who know stuff about paper.   But there is a fine line that 
has been crossed numerous times lately. 
> 
> That has changed how I see this fledgling list.  
> 
> Not only that, there is one subscriber whose postings always have 
a "soft spam" advertisement on his posts....that also is beyond what 
I would expect on this kind of list.  I seem to see dozens of his 
messages that scream (and I quote here):
> 
> Make Your Site SELL! (MYSS!)
> The best art in the world is useless......if you can't sell it.
> What's the point of traffic...if no one's buying your art?
> Order MYSS! TODAY... increase your sales TOMORROW
> http://myss.sitesell.com/artists.html
> 
> That is about as annoying as the "Lose Weight Now!"  Lose 20 pounds 
etc....ads that show up on the other list. 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey guys, take control of your list.  
> 
> And keep the marketing hype off this list.  Otherwise, you are no 
better than a tool for ink reps and paper reps etc...

> 
> With sincere intent and best wishes for you and your list,
> Steadman
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman,

I appreciate you concerns and certainly your interest in this list.

I think Martin pretty much summed up how we differentiate between spam and 
commercial posts that we actually invite. This is a fine line indeed: we want to 
hear the story behind a product or sevice from the source. But, nobody ever 
wants spam. So, it is helpful that you brought an instance of spam to our 
attention. Beyond that, however, there will be an ebb and flow of 
subject-matter that will be more interesting to some and boring to others. I take 
that to be the nature of these lists.

Mark brought up the issue of subscribing to individual emails. Apparently 
that's some sort of Yahoo default, because others had a similar problem. I, for 
one, find it much more convenient to go to our HomePage and pick threads 
that interest me (or those with my name in them <g>). So, to anyone else 
having a similar problem, just say NO - no emails, that is, in your membership 
prefs! And if you don't want to be bothered making the change, I can make it 
for you if you like.

Needless to say, while I monitor the list, I am not able (or interested, frankly) to 
read every single post. So, if there is a blatant spam attempt, it helps to let 
either Martin or myself know.

In closing, I'd say that the best defense against uninteresting posts is to start 
and sustain a thread on a subject that you really care about or have 
something new to say. We are hoping this is as self-moderating a list as can 
be. But we are here if needed, too.

Best regards,

Antonis