Digital BW, The Print

Stephen, the Gen 4 black is noticeably deeper than the VM black.  The
Gen 4 has some dye in it, and I believe it is rated for 70 years vs the
100 year rating for the pure pigment black inks.

The difference in the prints between the 2 inks is the VM black does not
make acceptable blacks (for me) on watercolor papers, and the Gen 4 does.

Jerry



"Stephen A. Tucker " wrote:

> 
> I have a set of MIS Variable Sepia on order.
> 
> Before I load my CIS system for first time - what
> are the pros and cons of using the MIS black vs.
> the Gen4 black?
> 
> Gen4 black is reported to be 25% dye and produces
> more black density.
> 
> AFAIK - there is no compatibility problem. But what
> about esthetics?  Longevity?
> 
> Thanks in Advance,
> Steve Tucker
> 
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Steve,

>... - what are the pros and cons of using the MIS black
>vs. the Gen4 black?

Less fade and warming v. deeper black is basically it.

I've felt for some time that the Gen4 K is a good solution for those who
need deeper blacks.  However, the warming difference is substantial.  See
the scan of a short fade test I did with the two inks in it.  The scan is in
the Files section of this forum.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

Then follow the folders to >Ink Sets > MIS

There you'll find the image file, "Indelible v MIS VM K 300Hr Fade.jpg."

The bottom test strip is the Gen4 K.  After only 100 hours in the fader it
has warmed very substantially compared to the control strip above it.  The
middle pair is the MIS VM black.  It has changed hardly at all in the same
period.  Note that these are "black ink only" test strips that show the tone
change more than would be the case where the ink was relegated to the
deepest black, but the midtones just show in a more visible way what is
happening, and 100 hours in my old fader is a very short test.  The dyes
fade and warm quickly.

>Gen4 black is reported to be 25% dye and produces
>more black density.

Correct.

>AFAIK - there is no compatibility problem.

Correct, as far as I can tell.

> But what about esthetics? ...

I don't like excessive warming, especially with cool inksets.  If you are
printing the vm-s mostly in the sepia range, it's not a major problem.  At
the neutral end or the range, however, when the black ink warms considerably
you could see it in the deep shadows.

That said, some on the list who love cold prints use Gen4 K and swear by it.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
 Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:

<snip>

> The difference in the prints between the 2 inks is
> the VM black does not make acceptable blacks (for me)
> on watercolor papers, and the Gen 4 does.
> 
> Jerry
> 

Jerry,

In my limited experience with VM black, it looks very
dense to me on Photo Rag & EAM/HWM - although I have
no way to actually measure it.

On textured paper of any kind, VM black DOES seem to 
give up a LOT of tonal range - much more than most
"wet darkroom" textured papers ever did.

If you don't mind me asking, what watercolor papers
do you like with the Gen4 black?

Thanks,
Steve Tucker

Steve, there is a difference, with gen 4 on any paper.

It makes Eclipse Satine acceptable (it's my favorite paper).  The VM ink
would not result in deep enough blacks to be acceptable on this paper.

Photo Rag, Wells River, William Turner, Torchon, all exhibit outstanding
blacks with the GEN 4 black.  It's been rated at 100+ years, and that's
good enough for me.

A great way to see for yourself which black is truly the best in
density, is simply do a dip and dunk test with a 1x6 inch piece of all
the papers you normally use.  The Gen 4 black always comes out the
winner. I dunk each strip twice, about 20 seconds apart and lay them on
a sheet of plastic, printing side up, until dry.

Jerry





"Stephen A. Tucker " wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
>  Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > The difference in the prints between the 2 inks is
> > the VM black does not make acceptable blacks (for me)
> > on watercolor papers, and the Gen 4 does.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> 
> Jerry,
> 
> In my limited experience with VM black, it looks very
> dense to me on Photo Rag & EAM/HWM - although I have
> no way to actually measure it.
> 
> On textured paper of any kind, VM black DOES seem to
> give up a LOT of tonal range - much more than most
> "wet darkroom" textured papers ever did.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, what watercolor papers
> do you like with the Gen4 black?
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve Tucker
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/