Digital BW, The Print

I've been experimenting with Paul Roark's VM hextone inks and curves 
on an Epson 1200.  Paul has been very helpful in working with me to 
write curves to work on that printer.  First, I've determined that 
the potential with these inks and curves is incredible.  Second, I've 
determined that it will require a fair amount of work (by Paul and 
me) to get the curves to the point where I'm really happy with them.  
At this point in my life, I have more money than time, and, while I 
realize that all inkjet printing (and all printing, for that matter) 
requires some tinkering, I'd rather spend more of my time printing 
than tinkering.  I'm thinking of buying an Epson 1280 to replace my 
1200 therefore for the following reasons: (a) I understand the 1280 
curves are further along than the 1200 curves in their development 
phase; (b) I expect the 1280 platform (because it is still current) 
will outlast the 1200 platform by a couple of years; thus, if/when I 
need to replace the printer, I should be able to get another 1280 
easier and keep the same workflow intact; and (c) the 1280 should 
give me at least slightly higher quality prints than the 1200.  I've 
read that Jerry Olson is using the VM inks with a 1280 and is 
apparently very happy with the results.  Other than Jerry, is anyone 
else using the VM hex inks on a 1280, and, if so, how would you rate 
your results?  Are you getting predictable, repeatable results?

I would be interested in using the 1280 primarily with the medium 
warm ("mw"), and neutral to slightly cool ("nc") curves, and 
secondarily with the medium cool ("c") curve.  I understand that 
Jerry is primarily using the cooler curves.  Is anyone on a 1280 
using the warmer curves and, if so, what are your results?  To the 
extent you are using the VM inks with a 1280, I'd appreciate if you'd 
specify whether you're on a Mac or PC platform, as I understand there 
may be some variance in the results from the drivers for the two 
different platforms.

Also, for Jerry, in particular (or others using a 1280 and who have 
previously used Cone's inkset), how would you compare the results 
with the VM hex inks using the "mw" curves and the Piezo results?

Thanks, Howard.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., hslavitt@c... wrote:
> 
> Also, for Jerry, in particular (or others using a 1280 and who have 
> previously used Cone's inkset), how would you compare the results 
> with the VM hex inks using the "mw" curves and the Piezo results?
> 
> Thanks, Howard.

Howard,

I can not speak for Jerry, but I will share with you the following....

Yesterday I have the pleasure to visit with Tom McCartney at his home 
in Lantana, FL.  Tom is currently working on a new book in 
conjunction with Dr. Richard Zakia (RIT), Gordon Brown (Kodak), and 
George DeWolfe entitled "The Zone System for Digital Photographers".  

I brought with me 3 20x24" framed Piezo Prints made on my 7000 and 
printed on Hahnemuhle German Etching. I also brought with me 5 8x10 
prints all of the same scene. One made with the Piezo system and the 
other 4 made with the warm, medium warm, neutral, and cool curves 
with the MIS Variable tone inks, all on German Etching.

Tom has almost two dozen of his platinum prints hanging on the wall 
in his dining room. We held the prints up against the wall and 
compared them to the platinum images. We found that the "MW" curves 
produces an image that seemed to match the platinum prints almost 
perfectly.

Tom was aghast. He has heard me rave about Piezo and more recently 
the MIS inks. He had not seen the MIS inks until this point. The 
first thing he pointed out was that the Piezo print had compressed 
shadows and highlights resulting in more contrast. The MIS prints had 
smoother tonal gradations and were overall just as pleasing as the 
Piezo prints.

Tom asked if he could send the 5 prints to Gordon Brown. Of course I 
agreed and look forward to hearing Gordons impressions.

We subsequently went to lunch and Tom continually talked about the 
prints and was duly impressed with Pauls work in developing the 
curves.

We also looked at the 20x24 Piezo Prints that were framed and covered 
with clear acrylic. Tom thought that they were lovely and quite 
expressive. He did note that the Piezo prints has a slightly greenish 
cast. It was not obvious, except when placed next to a platinum or 
selenium toned print.

Mike

Howard,

I am MIS VM inks on a 1280 running under Windows 2000.

At this point I find the results rather mixed. Initially none of the 
curves for the 1280 worked for me. As you noted there seems to be a 
Mac/PC driver difference. There is no "Halftone" setting in the 
Win2000 driver for instance but there is a "Smooth" setting.

Paul worked on the curves for me and as it stands the neutral nc 
curve is very good and I can produce very sharp, tonally smooth 
prints with this curve on EAM, LPM and similar papers. Using EAM and 
this curve, I feel I have made my best ink jet print so far. No micro 
or sub-micro banding, no dots even under magnification, no window 
screen pattern. The results are repeatable.

I am finding at this point that the w and mw (warm and medium-warm) 
curves have a noticeable amount of posterizing in the step wedges and 
in prints, and are not usable.

The step wedge of the c (cool) curve looks good but I have not tried 
it.

Unfortunately I find the neutral nc curve to be too blue for my own 
tastes. This is particularly noticeable in prints with a high mid-
tone content. Mark Tucker mentioned running a print without any 
curves on his 7000. I gave this a try and I found the color to be 
very nice but the image very posterized in the lower tones. In color 
it was somewhere in between the neutral and medium-warm curves. I get 
a very similar tone by using the medium-warm curve and setting the 
Magenta slider in the Epson driver to +10 to +20%. This is the print 
color I have been looking for.

I have also found that while using the sliders changes the tone, it 
also cause the prints to posterize and I have not been able to use 
the slider adjustments.

So I find myself in a position where I can only print in one tone on 
a small number of papers. I would not recommend that anyone venture 
into this territory on the 1280 unless you are experienced enough and 
willing to spend the time to work out your own workflow or curves.

It is quite likely that the situation with MIS VM is much better on 
the 1160 and 3000 where Paul has done a great deal more work over 
many months. I have seen prints from an 1160 over a range from cold 
to warm that all looked great. So if you have one of these printers 
you might want to go ahead and give the ink set a try.

The problem is that both of these printers are now out of production 
and no longer readily available in the US. The rest of the world can 
still buy new 1160's and perhaps 3000's. So really the only place to 
go (if you are in the US) with these inks if you are starting out is 
the 1280, which puts you in the situation of having a very limited 
number of papers to work with.

I know Paul is working very hard on this but I think the difference 
between the Epson drivers on the two platforms has complicated and 
slowed down development. Hopefully all of this will resolve itself in 
the near future and someone with the expertise will start working on 
this in addition to Paul.

I would install the MIS FS ink set on my 1200, if they were available 
in a hex tone set, and print using the Piezo driver. The one print I 
have seen with this set done on an 1160 was very close to the tone of 
the medium-warm MIS VM. Similar to Piezo but with none of the 
colorcasts I find unpleasant in the Piezo ink set.

At the moment I am at a loss as to what to do. I am not happy with 
the Piezo prints out of the 1200 and while the prints I can get out 
of the 1280 are of high quality they are not to my taste and the 
print exchange deadline gets closer every day!

Any and all suggestions welcome!

Martin Wesley




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., hslavitt@c... wrote:
> I've been experimenting with Paul Roark's VM hextone inks and 
curves 
> on an Epson 1200.  Paul has been very helpful in working with me to 
> write curves to work on that printer.  First, I've determined that 
> the potential with these inks and curves is incredible.  Second, 
I've 
> determined that it will require a fair amount of work (by Paul and 
> me) to get the curves to the point where I'm really happy with 
them.  
> At this point in my life, I have more money than time, and, while I 
> realize that all inkjet printing (and all printing, for that 
matter) 
> requires some tinkering, I'd rather spend more of my time printing 
> than tinkering.  I'm thinking of buying an Epson 1280 to replace my 
> 1200 therefore for the following reasons: (a) I understand the 1280 
> curves are further along than the 1200 curves in their development 
> phase; (b) I expect the 1280 platform (because it is still current) 
> will outlast the 1200 platform by a couple of years; thus, if/when 
I 
> need to replace the printer, I should be able to get another 1280 
> easier and keep the same workflow intact; and (c) the 1280 should 
> give me at least slightly higher quality prints than the 1200.  
I've 
> read that Jerry Olson is using the VM inks with a 1280 and is 
> apparently very happy with the results.  Other than Jerry, is 
anyone 
> else using the VM hex inks on a 1280, and, if so, how would you 
rate 
> your results?  Are you getting predictable, repeatable results?
> 
> I would be interested in using the 1280 primarily with the medium 
> warm ("mw"), and neutral to slightly cool ("nc") curves, and 
> secondarily with the medium cool ("c") curve.  I understand that 
> Jerry is primarily using the cooler curves.  Is anyone on a 1280 
> using the warmer curves and, if so, what are your results?  To the 
> extent you are using the VM inks with a 1280, I'd appreciate if 
you'd 
> specify whether you're on a Mac or PC platform, as I understand 
there 

> may be some variance in the results from the drivers for the two 
> different platforms.
> 
> Also, for Jerry, in particular (or others using a 1280 and who have 
> previously used Cone's inkset), how would you compare the results 
> with the VM hex inks using the "mw" curves and the Piezo results?
> 
> Thanks, Howard.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> I have also found that while using the sliders changes the 
tone, it 
> also cause the prints to posterize and I have not been able to 
use 
> the slider adjustments.


I am very early on in this, but so far, using a Mac and ESFA, it's 
not very close. I am trying to eliminate as many variables as 
possible, as in, I'd like to arrive at a Magenta slider setting (I've 
just been using Zero), and then lock it down. And then arrive at a 
set Gamma (I've been using 2.2), and then lock it down. I have 
done NO transfer adjustments at all. Then, I'd say to pick ONE of 
the curve "looks", and then lock that down. 

Only then, I'd think, that you could start actually moving the points 
along the existing curves. But then, this gets into Paul's 
knowledge area, and over my head.

I know most people are using LegionMatte or EAM, but I'm still 
clinging to ESFA. But at some point, I guess I'd let that go if the 
black DMAX proved too low on this paper.

This is obviously still very much a work-in-progress, at least for 
the 7000, and the Mac. Yet, I'm still excited about eliminating the 
whole color-crossover factor, and with time, this will all come 
together.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> 
(snip)

 
> 
> I am very early on in this, but so far, using a Mac and ESFA, it's 
> not very close. I am trying to eliminate as many variables as 
> possible, as in, I'd like to arrive at a Magenta slider setting 
(I've 
> just been using Zero), and then lock it down. And then arrive at a 
> set Gamma (I've been using 2.2), and then lock it down. I have 
> done NO transfer adjustments at all. Then, I'd say to pick ONE of 
> the curve "looks", and then lock that down. 

Mark,

I think I am a whole two weeks ahead of you. <g> The neutral curve on 
EAM with the slider at 0 is really locked on target with the 1280 on 
the PC.
> 
> Only then, I'd think, that you could start actually moving the 
points 
> along the existing curves. But then, this gets into Paul's 
> knowledge area, and over my head.

I really would like to get to the point of being able to tweak the 
curves but I haven't a clue.
> 
> I know most people are using LegionMatte or EAM, but I'm still 
> clinging to ESFA. But at some point, I guess I'd let that go if the 
> black DMAX proved too low on this paper.

EAM and LPM are nice but I want the option to use some of the thicker 
and warmer papers, too.

> 
> This is obviously still very much a work-in-progress, at least for 
> the 7000, and the Mac. Yet, I'm still excited about eliminating the 
> whole color-crossover factor, and with time, this will all come 
> together.

I agree and if I sound frustrated it has to do with being so close to 
what I want and not having the skills to get there. The Epson driver 
and the inks have the potential, I just don't know how to steer!

Martin