Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

[Digital BW] PiezoBW versus Lyson Small gamut

[Digital BW] PiezoBW versus Lyson Small gamut

2001-09-14 by Paul Roark

Jo Brunenberg wrote:

>...
>... month of August (very sunny in the Netherlands where I
>live) I exposed two black-and-white prints to the sunlight in my
roof-window
>on the south. So a rather tough test.

>...
>- The exposed part of the PiezoBW print did not change in the dark gray and
>black areas. There is a very slight fading in the highlights. The exposed
>part is slightly less "greenish". The print still is very acceptable.
>(the slight fading is just visible to the eye and a densitometer does read
a
>minor change).

>- The exposed part of the Lyson print shows a dramatic fading as well as a
>colorshift. ...

The Piezo results sound similar to my experiences.  The greenish tint is
obvious in the two lightest gray inks if they are printed separately.  When
exposed in my florescent light fader, they rather quickly lose the greenish
tint.  I think that is the dye component of the ink fading away.  (See the
Piezo-MIS dot scans in the Message Related Files section of this forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ )

With the black ink, I've had varying results.  Sometimes I get almost no
fading with it.  Other times there is fading.  All I can guess is that some
other factors -- humidity or temperature most likely -- are affecting the
results.  In my latest test the MIS VM black (which I believe is the same as
Piezo black) on EAM only faded 1.4% in 300 hours -- a remarkable
performance, in my view.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoBW versus Lyson Small gamut

2001-09-14 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
snip...

> The Piezo results sound similar to my experiences.  The greenish
tint is
> obvious in the two lightest gray inks if they are printed
separately.  When
> exposed in my florescent light fader, they rather quickly lose the
greenish
> tint.  I think that is the dye component of the ink fading away.

This is being repeated so many times, despite the facts, an agenda
becomes highly suspected. This is a reaction to paper 
coating.
Period.
This has been acknowledged by the ink manufacturers themselves, other
experts like C. D. Tobie, and many users 
conducting tests on a wide variety of coated and uncoated papers.
Whatever alleged green component may exist is not fading away. All
carbon pigment mono inksets in common use react to 
the popular coatings in this way (including EAM, the main paper
apparently used in these tests), they become redder, some 
faster than others, particularly in the lighter inks.
Sorry for the tone, I'm not feeling particularly patient these days.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoBW versus Lyson Small gamut

2001-09-14 by Martin Wesley

Tyler,

Are you objecting to the statement that Piezo contains a green 
component or that it fades out? Or both? 

I am not familiar with C. D. Tobie or his tests. Can you tell us a 
bit more?

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> snip...
> 
> > The Piezo results sound similar to my experiences.  The greenish
> tint is
> > obvious in the two lightest gray inks if they are printed
> separately.  When
> > exposed in my florescent light fader, they rather quickly lose the
> greenish
> > tint.  I think that is the dye component of the ink fading away.
> 
> This is being repeated so many times, despite the facts, an agenda
> becomes highly suspected. This is a reaction to paper 
> coating.
> Period.
> This has been acknowledged by the ink manufacturers themselves, 
other
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> experts like C. D. Tobie, and many users 
> conducting tests on a wide variety of coated and uncoated papers.
> Whatever alleged green component may exist is not fading away. All
> carbon pigment mono inksets in common use react to 
> the popular coatings in this way (including EAM, the main paper
> apparently used in these tests), they become redder, some 
> faster than others, particularly in the lighter inks.
> Sorry for the tone, I'm not feeling particularly patient these days.
> Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] PiezoBW versus Lyson Small gamut

2001-09-14 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Tyler,
> 
> Are you objecting to the statement that Piezo contains a green 
> component or that it fades out? Or both? 
> 
> I am not familiar with C. D. Tobie or his tests. Can you tell us a 
> bit more?
> 
> Martin

Martin, with respect, I have to say these issues don't seem very compelling to me in the light of current events. I simply 
can't muster up the will to go find all the info. I've been obsessively pursuing this stuff for years and I simply have 
conclusions in my head, without footnotes and references. It's also not my battle, I have no vested interest in seeing one 
ink become more successful than another, so I'm stepping back. If someone really wants to find out for themselves what's 
going on here, without bias, there is a lot of information out there, particularly in the archives of the Epson/Leben list and 
the Piezography list.
For starters, I'd turn your attention here-
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Inkjet%20Quadtone%20Printing
This was the first list, to my knowledge, devoted to quad printing. It started back in 1999, before Piezograghy even existed, 
Lysonic quads were barely out, and MIS the only ink we were working with. It's been inactive for a long time and only had a 
few posts, why it still exists on a server somewhere is beyond me. Quad posts on the Leben list go back even farther.
The other thing that can be done is to simply use whatever materials provide the most rewarding prints for the individual, 
without finding it necessary to run down the alternatives with half truths and baseless suppositions.
Good luck,
Tyler

Re: PiezoBW versus Lyson Small gamut

2001-09-14 by Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Tyler,
> > 
> > Are you objecting to the statement that Piezo contains a green 
> > component or that it fades out? Or both? 
> > 
> > I am not familiar with C. D. Tobie or his tests. Can you tell us 
a 
> > bit more?
> > 
> > Martin
> 
Hi Tyler,

I have no vested interest either, other than to find a workable 
system for myself or even better, several workable systems. Well 
actually I have a vested interest in seeing all the inks succeed. I 
think that is the result that will serve the users best.

I have been involved in this for less than a year and am battling the 
information overload trying to sort stuff out. I do appreciate the 
link. I will check it out and the Epson list also.

I really hate to see the discussions break down to a "My 
ink/paper/printer/whatever is better than yours." That doesn't seem 
to produce much and I don't think there is some "right answer" that 
everyone should follow. It is like criticizing someone for buy a red 
car instead of the green one. If I prefer particular ink to another, 
it doesn't mean anything other than it's simply my preference. It is 
unfortunate that people get so defensive over their chosen product 
and tend to attack anything perceived as a disparaging remark.

I am in complete agreement with you on making the best choice you can 
of the materials available and getting on with making prints. What 
really matters is our personal satisfaction with our work.

I know it must be a pain for people like you who have been involved 
with this much longer than the rest of us, to hear us go over topic 
x, y or z one more time, but I suspect that's the way the lists are 
going to be as we keep adding new people all the time. I appreciate 
you putting up with us and continuing to be interested.

Martin


> Martin, with respect, I have to say these issues don't seem very 
compelling to me in the light of current events. I simply 
> can't muster up the will to go find all the info. I've been 
obsessively pursuing this stuff for years and I simply have 
> conclusions in my head, without footnotes and references. It's also 
not my battle, I have no vested interest in seeing one 
> ink become more successful than another, so I'm stepping back. If 
someone really wants to find out for themselves what's 
> going on here, without bias, there is a lot of information out 
there, particularly in the archives of the Epson/Leben list and 
> the Piezography list.
> For starters, I'd turn your attention here-
> http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Inkjet%20Quadtone%
20Printing
> This was the first list, to my knowledge, devoted to quad printing. 
It started back in 1999, before Piezograghy even existed, 
> Lysonic quads were barely out, and MIS the only ink we were working 
with. It's been inactive for a long time and only had a 
> few posts, why it still exists on a server somewhere is beyond me. 
Quad posts on the Leben list go back even farther.
> The other thing that can be done is to simply use whatever 
materials provide the most rewarding prints for the individual, 
> without finding it necessary to run down the alternatives with half 
truths and baseless suppositions.
> Good luck,
> Tyler

Re: PiezoBW versus Lyson Small gamut

2001-09-15 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Hi Tyler,
> 
> I have no vested interest either, other than to find a workable 
> system for myself or even better, several workable systems.

Martin, I sincerely hope I didn't give the impression I thought otherwise. Bad communication skills.
> 
> I know it must be a pain for people like you who have been involved 
> with this much longer than the rest of us, to hear us go over topic 
> x, y or z one more time, but I suspect that's the way the lists are 
> going to be as we keep adding new people all the time. I appreciate 
> you putting up with us and continuing to be interested.

I'm concerned I might have implied I'm pained or putting up with anyone, or consider myself ahead of the disscussions 
here. If I counter every statement made here I find counterproductive...
Well, what sort of trivial pursuit would that be?
Learn all you can, consider having an obsession a blessing.

Since I just put my close companion of 14 years, my dog, to sleep...
and like you all have witnessed mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters leap to their deaths on television, while 
people on the other side of the planet I shouldn't judge cheer...
Well, I'm just not myself, wondering if I ever will be again, any of us.
Sorry for the confessional,
Tyler

Re: PiezoBW versus Lyson Small gamut

2001-09-15 by Martin Wesley

Tyler,

I was afraid you had taken my remarks wrong. This is basically a 
rather mediocre way to communicate when all is said in done.

It was an education to go the link you posted. Mostly a bunch of 
stuff by a couple of guys named Dan and Tyler. It is fascinating to 
see the discussions from two years ago. The names have changed but 
it's the same song. And that wasn't even the beginning because in '99 
Dan had already been working with the MIS inks for a year! Definitely 
a couple of ancient relics in this digital arena.

I don't think any of us are quite ourselves at this moment and with 
many good reasons. Life doesn't seem to remember to play fair and to 
hand us one grief at a time. You really have my very deepest sympathy 
for the loss of your friend.

Take care,
Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Hi Tyler,
> > 
> > I have no vested interest either, other than to find a workable 
> > system for myself or even better, several workable systems.
> 
> Martin, I sincerely hope I didn't give the impression I thought 
otherwise. Bad communication skills.
> > 
> > I know it must be a pain for people like you who have been 
involved 
> > with this much longer than the rest of us, to hear us go over 
topic 
> > x, y or z one more time, but I suspect that's the way the lists 
are 
> > going to be as we keep adding new people all the time. I 
appreciate 
> > you putting up with us and continuing to be interested.
> 
> I'm concerned I might have implied I'm pained or putting up with 
anyone, or consider myself ahead of the disscussions 
> here. If I counter every statement made here I find 
counterproductive...
> Well, what sort of trivial pursuit would that be?
> Learn all you can, consider having an obsession a blessing.
> 
> Since I just put my close companion of 14 years, my dog, to sleep...
> and like you all have witnessed mothers and fathers and brothers 
and sisters leap to their deaths on television, while 
> people on the other side of the planet I shouldn't judge cheer...
> Well, I'm just not myself, wondering if I ever will be again, any 
of us.
> Sorry for the confessional,
> Tyler

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.