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[Digital BW] Relative fade properties for coated prints?

[Digital BW] Relative fade properties for coated prints?

2003-01-12 by Paul Roark

Steve,

You wrote:

>... has anyone had a chance to evaluate the warm-shift/
>fade resistance of the coated  prints versus uncoated?

The coatings I have tested -- acrylic and polyurethane -- appear to have no
substantial effect on fade and warm-shifting characteristics.  However,
light-box type testing like I do does not hold the humidity at the test
standard of 60%, so the testing may well not show the benefits of coating.

I had thought that the coatings would block UV -- even that produced by
fluorescent lights like in my fader.  However, I see virtually no
differences in my tests.  Note that the shortest and most damaging UV is
absorbed by window glass and the normal glazing materials.  So, for indoor
display, I see no reason to use any special UV absorbing materials.  If
applied in a heavy coating, the UV-absorbing materials are just too yellow
to use anyway.

I had also hoped that the coatings would block the oxidizing gases.  My
tests, however, do not provide any evidence for this.  This may or may not
have any meaning.  However, I now suspect the coatings do not accomplish the
goal of being a gas and moisture barrier.  I speculate that the coatings
just lay on top of the pigs, and the gases and moisture enter through the
matte paper.  (I am curious if coatings on a barrier (RC) paper do any
better.)

I must say, however, that I think the simple light-box and south window
tests are inadequate to compare coated pigments and uncoated ones.  My
readings suggest that the heat from the bright light in accelerated,
light-box testing artificially dries the particles.  Thus, any benefit from
coating might not show up in the tests even if it were very significant in
typical real-world display.  Moisture appears to be an important variable in
the fading rate.

I suspect that at the level we are now approaching -- 100+ year, pure
pigments -- the very expensive, Wilhelm-type testing is going to needed to
see the differences in these products.  The simple light boxes that most
have are a fraction of the cost of the machines that hold the humidity,
temperature and other variables where they really need to be.  As such, I'm
becoming inclined to just roughly categorize a material as probably a "class
A" (about probably in the "100 yea" class) -- or not.  I'm not sure our
cheap light box testing is doing much more than showing whether there is dye
in the mix.

(Kodak and others have materials on accelerated testing that suggest our
simple testing may be useless for evaluating relative lives of non-similar
materials -- photo v. inkjet and even coated v. non=coated particles.
Different materials have different reciprocity failures and react
differently to the various fading factors.  A test that just looks at a
single factor may totally miss the actual, real-world performance
differences.)

The good news is that the coatings really to seem to give physical
protection and enhance dmax.  They appear to be neutral on most fade tests.
On some the coated midtones do a hair better, but on some the coated black
pigments do slight less good (perhaps the higher dmax causes the absorption
of more light, generates more heat, and makes it more difficult for the
particles to dissipate the heat).



>... I'm debating whether
>to buy a 7500 and sell my first digital prints through a designer. ...

I just bought a 7500 and think it will make a great B&W machine.  I'm
currently planning on using the coated Epson Archival black pigment mixed as
an FS/Piezo-compatible "quad."  I'll print with the Epson driver an use the
double-cyan ink placement method.  (In short, I'm going to go with the
Epson-coated pigs rather than rely on post-printing coating to protect the
individual pigment particles.  Whether I use post-printing coating for dmax
and physical protection depends on other factors.)

My initial tests with color ink in the 7500 convince me it was an awful
color printer.  Maybe professional profiles help, but for color printing I'd
pay the extra and purchase a 7600.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Relative fade properties for coated prints?

2003-01-12 by Steven Karafyllakis <stevek@evcom.net>

Paul;

Thanks for your as usual thoughtful and thourough reply.  I'm 
actually more relieved than dissapointed to hear your results, I 
wasn't at all looking forward to having to take up post-print 
coating. About your comment->>  I speculate that the coatings
> just lay on top of the pigs, and the gases and moisture enter 
through the
> matte paper.  (I am curious if coatings on a barrier (RC) paper do 
any
> better.)
 I assume that since you haven't  tested RC papers you also haven't 
tested dry-mounted prints? I would guess that the mount board and 
glue/tissue would help, if a barrier does indeed make a difference? 
> I just bought a 7500 and think it will make a great B&W machine.  
I'm
> currently planning on using the coated Epson Archival black 
pigment mixed as
> an FS/Piezo-compatible "quad."  I'll print with the Epson driver 
an use the
> double-cyan ink placement method.  (In short, I'm going to go with 
the
> Epson-coated pigs rather than rely on post-printing coating to 
protect the
> individual pigment particles.  Whether I use post-printing coating 
for dmax
> and physical protection depends on other factors.)

Is it possible to buy the Epson archival black in bottles, or are 
you sucking it out of cartridges? Also, What is the double-cyan ink 
placement method? As you may have noticed by my other post I did go 
ahead with the 7500- it was "like new still in original packing, 
used only once for a demo" and the Fiery Rip came with it at no 
extra cost. Total price 1875.00, and I can drive to Miami and pick 
it up on Monday. Needles to say I'm excited... but it does open up a 
whole new confusing set of options and problems. I do like the idea 
of an Epson arch. K inkset, that would put my mind to rest, even if 
it cost a bit more.

I must say though, I have seen some beautiful color work done on 
that printer-but with a few thousand dollars of profiling software 
and hardware supporting it, as you said. Might be a stretch for my 
Monaco EZcolor...

Sreve Karafyllakis
 http://www.stevekphoto.com

Re: [Digital BW] Relative fade properties for coated prints?

2003-01-12 by Paul Roark

Steve,

>I assume that since ... you also haven't tested dry-mounted prints?

No, I haven't tested them.

> I would guess that the mount board and
>glue/tissue would help, if a barrier does indeed make a difference?

That is what I've heard.  Collectors and conservators hate the dry mounting
or any non-reversible process.  However, from what I've heard, which is
consistent with what I've seen, the dry mounted prints are usually in better
shape.  I just received an old mounted print today.  The mount board was not
archival, and the acid has caused it to almost turn to dust.  The print,
however, is in surprisingly good shape.  The mount tissue seems to have
isolated it even from the acidic board, at least to a certain extent.



>> I just bought a 7500 and think it will make a great B&W machine.
I'm
>> currently planning on using the coated Epson Archival black
pigment mixed as
>> an FS/Piezo-compatible "quad."  I'll print with the Epson driver
an use the
>> double-cyan ink placement method.  (In short, I'm going to go with
the
>> Epson-coated pigs rather than rely on post-printing coating to
protect the
>> individual pigment particles.  Whether I use post-printing coating
for dmax
>> and physical protection depends on other factors.)

>Is it possible to buy the Epson archival black in bottles, or are
<you sucking it out of cartridges?

It'll be pulled out of 10000 carts.

> Also, What is the double-cyan ink placement method?

I'm going to try cyan in both cyan and magenta, and then the magenta density
in both the light/photo positions.  Yellow (lightest FS/Piezo ink) will stay
in the yellow position.

>... I did go ahead with the 7500-

Congratulations.

>...I do like the idea of an Epson arch. K inkset,
>that would put my mind to rest, even if it cost a bit more.

The 10000 carts can be purchased for in the $130 range.  That 500 ml is
mostly diluted for the midtones.  The black will get you up to 2.2 on RC
paper.  That dmax and 100+ years are something to think about.

I still prefer the matte look, even if the dmax is lower.  For matte, the
Archival K dmax is closer to 1.50.  Too bad.  I'm leaning toward the Cone
Museum K for that.  The fade tests Cone published for the Museum K look very
good, as do the prints I've made with an initial purchase of 4 oz.  The 220
ml "universal" cart is about $75.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Relative fade properties for coated prints?

2003-01-12 by Steven Karafyllakis <stevek@evcom.net>

Paul;

I've always been a bit of a contrarian when it comes to dry-
mounting. My feeling is the primary function of an art piece is to 
be on display, hopefully giving its owner a little pleasure every 
day, and ther's no way a photo or a print (on any but the heaviest 
papers) will stay flat and look nice for any length of time without 
being mounted. I'll bet quite a few valuable prints have been 
damaged over the years by carelesness precisely becuase they were 
unmounted and unprotected.

As for the Cone Museum K - I've been printing with it for a few 
days, about to finish my first cart. My impressions? I like the way 
it looks, it blends well with my customized MIS set, adding just a 
little bit more Dmax. Nothing drastic mind you, but noticeable. The 
tone is very neutral in daylight, but it has a tiny bit of 
metamerism indoors, shifting a bit to the selenium-brown side. 
That's some thing I can live with, I like that much better than the 
yellow-brown of straight MIS black. On the down side, I find myself 
doing more cleaning cycles, almost before every print; I have to do 
at least a nozzle check first, and that gets anoying. I think the 
Museum K simply dries faster. I going to try a few drops of Windex 
on the parking pad every night before I put it to bed, maybe that'll 
help in the morning at least---

Steve K

 In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> >I assume that since ... you also haven't tested dry-mounted 
prints?
> 
> No, I haven't tested them.
> 
> > I would guess that the mount board and
> >glue/tissue would help, if a barrier does indeed make a 
difference?
> 
> That is what I've heard.  Collectors and conservators hate the dry 
mounting
> or any non-reversible process.  However, from what I've heard, 
which is
> consistent with what I've seen, the dry mounted prints are usually 
in better
> shape.  I just received an old mounted print today.  The mount 
board was not
> archival, and the acid has caused it to almost turn to dust.  The 
print,
> however, is in surprisingly good shape.  The mount tissue seems to 
have
> isolated it even from the acidic board, at least to a certain 
extent.
> 
> 
> 
> >> I just bought a 7500 and think it will make a great B&W machine.
> I'm
> >> currently planning on using the coated Epson Archival black
> pigment mixed as
> >> an FS/Piezo-compatible "quad."  I'll print with the Epson driver
> an use the
> >> double-cyan ink placement method.  (In short, I'm going to go 
with
> the
> >> Epson-coated pigs rather than rely on post-printing coating to
> protect the
> >> individual pigment particles.  Whether I use post-printing 
coating
> for dmax
> >> and physical protection depends on other factors.)
> 
> >Is it possible to buy the Epson archival black in bottles, or are
> <you sucking it out of cartridges?
> 
> It'll be pulled out of 10000 carts.
> 
> > Also, What is the double-cyan ink placement method?
> 
> I'm going to try cyan in both cyan and magenta, and then the 
magenta density
> in both the light/photo positions.  Yellow (lightest FS/Piezo ink) 
will stay
> in the yellow position.
> 
> >... I did go ahead with the 7500-
> 
> Congratulations.
> 
> >...I do like the idea of an Epson arch. K inkset,
> >that would put my mind to rest, even if it cost a bit more.
> 
> The 10000 carts can be purchased for in the $130 range.  That 500 
ml is
> mostly diluted for the midtones.  The black will get you up to 2.2 
on RC
> paper.  That dmax and 100+ years are something to think about.
> 
> I still prefer the matte look, even if the dmax is lower.  For 
matte, the
> Archival K dmax is closer to 1.50.  Too bad.  I'm leaning toward 
the Cone
> Museum K for that.  The fade tests Cone published for the Museum K 
look very
> good, as do the prints I've made with an initial purchase of 4 
oz.  The 220
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> ml "universal" cart is about $75.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Relative fade properties for coated prints?

2003-01-13 by Paul Roark

Steve,

>I've always been a bit of a contrarian when it comes to dry-
>mounting. ... ther's no way a photo or a print (on any
>but the heaviest papers) will stay flat and look nice
>for any length of time without being mounted.

I always dry mounted my silver prints.  (As did AA, I believe.)  However,
I've found tape-hanging EAM behind an overmat works fine for 16x20 prints
under glass.  If there are some ripples, the very matte finish seems to be
hiding the problem.

>As for the Cone Museum K - I've been printing with it for a few
>days, about to finish my first cart. My impressions? I like the way
>it looks, ...

I agree.

>... On the down side, I find myself
>doing more cleaning cycles, almost before every print; I have to do
>at least a nozzle check first, and that gets anoying. ...

That could be bad news.  I printed a cart full of the ink on my 1160 and
didn't notice the problem.

That said, I'm a bit suspicious that there could be problems with these new
"high load" pigmented insets.  These inks (and Museum black is one of them)
have about twice the pigment load of the older pigments.  To get that load
to be held suspended with an acceptable settling rate, the viscosity of the
ink may be at the ragged edge of what Epson's can tolerate.  Any glitch --
aging, slight leak that allows evaporation, slight production variation,
etc. -- just might put the viscosity over the top and cause problems.

However, to get a blacker black or a higher-gamut color, raising the load of
pigments seems more palatable to me than throwing in dyes.  So, we shall
see.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

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