Digital BW, The Print

Martin,
Just wanted to let you know that I've had a couple of pretty good days
printing with the MIS VM inks after retrieving the curves you posted and
that Paul Roark emailed to me following my post of frustration Friday.
The neutral-cool curve worked extremely well for me right out of the
box\ufffdprior to that I had been experiencing posterization in the 3/4
tones. The cool curve and the medium-warm curve have also worked quite
well though I haven't put them through the same paces as the neutral as
of yet. I haven't tried the others yet.

All-and-all my best time with quad printing thus far, working with
Polaroid 55 negatives that had proven problematic in the past. I'm
printing on both EAM and Eclipse Satine with minor tonal tweaks between
the two. Now I've got tonally- smooth, extremely sharp prints. I'm
actually having a hard time believing how good these prints look.
Thank you and Paul for your help.
Peter Lindman

mwesley250@... wrote:

> 
> Peter,
> 
> I have placed the two latest sets of curves Paul sent me for the 1280
> connected to a PC in the "Files" section under "Inks".
> 
> Martin
> 

> (snip)

Peter,

I am glad to hear you are up and printing!

Over the weekend Paul gave me some new curves. These are true 
neutral. Not cool neutral or warm netural. These have proved to be 
exactly what I was looking for and I have produced the most 
satisfying ink jets prints I have managed in 10 months of trying!

The really wonderful thing about these curves is that they printed 
well on a very large range of paper. I made prints on EAM, Legion 
Photo Matte, Eclipse Satine, Hahnemule Photo Rag, Museo, German 
Etching, Torchon, Epson Heavy Weight Matte. All gave good results and 
while image adjustment is needed on some of them it is minor.

By printing right at the neutral point the tone of the prints are 
dominated by the color of the paper. The tone is similar to using the 
mono-ink methods we were discussing a couple of weeks ago.

Also note that Paul feels that the cool neutral is a better choice as 
it will end up more neutral after the characteristic warming of the 
prints. Pesonally I believe I would prefer to have the print start 
neutral and then shift warm rather than start blue, pass through 
neutral to warm.

These are matters of personal taste and what is wonderful is that 
there is choice with this system!

So for the Epson 1280 running under Windows 2000 I have hit a point 
of operation that for me surpasses anything else I have tried. 
(Please keep in mind that there is a great deal of variation between 
printer models and a apparently a lesser variation between the Epson 
driver for Mac and PC platforms.)

We also need to keep in mind that there is probably enough difference 
between two printers of the same model to require some individual 
curve tweaking for each printer. This is true for all the 
software/ink systems. Perhaps the higher end 7000 and 9000 printers 
will have less variability.

The situation with MIS VM and the availability of curves seems to be 
improving rapidly. Mike Kravit is working on curves for the 7000 in 
addition to Paul's efforts. I think that in a short time workable 
curves for the 1160, 1200, 1280, 3000 and 7000 will be available on 
one or both platforms.

In exchanging e-mails with Paul, he noted that there may not as much 
latitude in the slider adjustment for the 1280, and other 6-color 
printers, as in the 1160 and 3000 4-color printers. Obviously the RGB 
to CcMmCK conversion in the Epson driver is more complicated and 
seems unpredictable at this point. There is also some difficulty with 
the warm curves for the 1280 that Paul is looking at.

Even with these limitations, which have a reasonable chance of being 
solved, the MIS VM system is developing to a most usable ink set.

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Peter Lindman 
<plindman@q...> wrote:
> Martin,
> Just wanted to let you know that I've had a couple of pretty good 
days
> printing with the MIS VM inks after retrieving the curves you 
posted and
> that Paul Roark emailed to me following my post of frustration 
Friday.
> The neutral-cool curve worked extremely well for me right out of the
> box…prior to that I had been experiencing posterization in the 3/4
> tones. The cool curve and the medium-warm curve have also worked 
quite
> well though I haven't put them through the same paces as the 
neutral as
> of yet. I haven't tried the others yet.
> 
> All-and-all my best time with quad printing thus far, working with
> Polaroid 55 negatives that had proven problematic in the past. I'm
> printing on both EAM and Eclipse Satine with minor tonal tweaks 
between
> the two. Now I've got tonally- smooth, extremely sharp prints. I'm
> actually having a hard time believing how good these prints look.
> Thank you and Paul for your help.
> Peter Lindman
> 
(snip)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mwesley250@e... 
wrote:
These have proved to be 
> exactly what I was looking for and I have produced the most 
> satisfying ink jets prints I have managed in 10 months of trying!
> Martin Wesley


Martin,

I had a breakthrough today as well, (after a very tough bump last 
night). I was having a heck of a time keeping the lines full of ink 
in my 7000. I could clearly see very visible gaps, and did 
multiple, multiple cleanings, and even a Transport Dump and 
recharge. Nothing would solve it, so I shut it down and went 
home.

This afternoon, for some unknown reason, it's printing fine. 
Nozzle checks show solid. I also started messing with Paul's 
"w6" curve and made what I think is an improvement, at least for 
my machine and my monitor. The prints are VERY neutral and 
pleasing with no noticeable dots. I also switched to Epson 
Radiant White watercolor paper, which may have helped over 
ESFA for the black DMax. (But now I've gotta find something in 
24"). 

I'm going to try to do a whole second set of prints with these inks 
for the Print Exchange. I just hope these lines stay full; the 
voodoo factor for these printers is quite high I've found. Or maybe 
it was the fresh bread that I brought in for everybody in the office; 
maybe that's what tilted the scale. I've just got my fingers 
crossed, and will send Paul prints for his review.

-Mark Tucker
MIS hextones with CFS; Mac; 7000

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:

(snip)

> 
> This afternoon, for some unknown reason, it's printing fine. 
> Nozzle checks show solid. I also started messing with Paul's 
> "w6" curve and made what I think is an improvement, at least for 
> my machine and my monitor. The prints are VERY neutral and 
> pleasing with no noticeable dots. I also switched to Epson 
> Radiant White watercolor paper, which may have helped over 
> ESFA for the black DMax. (But now I've gotta find something in 
> 24").

Mark,

Glad to hear things are smoothing out! I did a lot of printing 
yesterday on Hahnemule Photo Rag. This had not printed well with the 
cool neutral curve but is very nice with the neutral curve and I 
suspect the medium-warm would also be nice. Blacks are very deep and 
base color is similar to Torchon. Surface is smooth but not without 
some character. I know that Digital Art Supplies has this in 24" 
rolls in the 188 and 308 gsm. They have all the Hahnemule and 
Schoellershammer papers in 24" rolls but you should comparison shop 
the prices.

Under magnification I can see the Epson driver dot pattern in some 
locations where there is a delicate transition to pure white but 
under normal viewing distances this is not visible. Like the 
microscopic banding and window screen pattern I get with the Piezo 
driver on my 1200, the dot pattern is less evident on papers with a 
rougher finish and in image areas that have a fine pattern such as 
grain.
 
> 
> I'm going to try to do a whole second set of prints with these inks 
> for the Print Exchange. I just hope these lines stay full; the 
> voodoo factor for these printers is quite high I've found. Or maybe 
> it was the fresh bread that I brought in for everybody in the 
office; 
> maybe that's what tilted the scale. I've just got my fingers 
> crossed, and will send Paul prints for his review.

You did remember to hang the horseshoe over the front door and turn 
around widdershins three times before turning on the printer and to 
always throw salt over your left shoulder just before 
clicking "Print"? Page 86 in the manual under troubleshooting I 
believe. ;-)

Martin

Tom,

You wrote:

>... If we're going to end up
>with lots of curves for various printer and paper combinations for
>each platform, would it make sense to use more descriptive file names
>for the curves? ...

It would be great if we could.  What I have run into, however, is that if I
used a name that was more than 8 characters on my PC, at least some Macs did
not seem to be able to use it.  I also found that using lower case seems
necessary.

So, we need some expertise is the PC v. Mac file naming problems.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

That's too bad. I know nothing about the MAC or the differences 
between the file naming conventions. Hopefully, someone here does and 
can offer a suggestion...

Tom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >... If we're going to end up
> >with lots of curves for various printer and paper combinations for
> >each platform, would it make sense to use more descriptive file 
names
> >for the curves? ...
> 
> It would be great if we could.  What I have run into, however, is 
that if I
> used a name that was more than 8 characters on my PC, at least some 
Macs did
> not seem to be able to use it.  I also found that using lower case 
seems

> necessary.
> 
> So, we need some expertise is the PC v. Mac file naming problems.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

I think you are getting no suggestions regarding these problems 
because they don't make any sense. The PC has more restriction of file 
naming that the Mac, certainly more than 8 characters can be handled, 
and no extensions are required.
Also, workflows worked out on one should work on the other. I suspect 
it has more to do with Photoshop and Epson driver settings.
I could certainly be wrong, but that's my experience.
T

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> I think you are getting no suggestions regarding these 
problems 
> because they don't make any sense.

I would think that Martin could create a Folder on this site, just for 
Curves. Inside that folder could be the name that Paul needs to 
name it by, to comply to PC format rules, but then, the 
"explanation/description" of that file could be more detailed -- 
Mac, PC, etc.

Or, Paul could give Martin a simple text file to upload that's a list 
of names of the curves, along with a more thorough explanation 
about them. A kind of reference sheet for all the curve names.

The Mac OS allows 31 character file names including extensions if you wish
to use them. Mac's do not require extensions as the system reads the file's
embedded tag. I use extensions so that I can send files to PC friends,
although they can easily add the proper extension to the file I send and use
it accordingly.

I agree that the workflows should not be any difference on the two
platforms. It must be driver differences. Sorry I have not been following
these discussions closely as I do not use these curves and inks so forgive
me if this has been answered.. but could the difference in prints from the
same curves be due to the big difference in drivers from PS 5.5 and PS6?

Carolyn

> I think you are getting no suggestions regarding these problems
> because they don't make any sense. The PC has more restriction of file
> naming that the Mac, certainly more than 8 characters can be handled,
> and no extensions are required.
> Also, workflows worked out on one should work on the other. I suspect
> it has more to do with Photoshop and Epson driver settings.
> I could certainly be wrong, but that's my experience.
> T

My first ever post to the list and it's not about photography.

The Mac's have a thirty one character limit for files names. The confusion
might have come about with the fact that while windows95 systems (formatted
with FAT or FAT16 file format) appeared to support long file names, they
actually didn't. The directory entry consisted of two separate entries-one
with a standard 8.3 name and another with the longer file name. The newer
FAT32 (windows 98 and above) truly supports long file names. I also think (I
am not positive) the MAC OS software has the improved support for reading
the older file system names.

On a similar note that while Mac's don't require file extensions it can make
life easier if you include them. A native Mac file consists of 2 parts- the
data fork and the resource fork. The data fork is obviously where the data
is. The resource fork is where the file type and icon are stored (along with
a few other things). This works wonderfully as long as your file stays in a
Mac environment but any time that files passes through another file system
it loses its resource fork. If the file has the correct extension the Mac
File Exchange utility will automatically associate it with the correct
program.


Lanette

The answer to your question is yes or to be more accurate - maybe. Most
modern email programs will handle the resource fork just fine but as you
know computers don't always work like they should. If you use stuffit it
will keep all the information even if it passes through a PC.


Lanette

On 9/23/01 9:23 PM, "Carolyn  Frayn" <carolyn@...> wrote:

> Welcome Lanette... great first post.  While I realized we had the two forks
> I did not know that the resource fork was lost when passing thru another
> environment. If you send a mac file to a mac friend thru email, does the
> email client lose the resource fork or does this only occur when going to a
> windows environment (ie: it's the windows system that dumps the resource
> fork)?
> 
> Thanks,
> Carolyn 
> 
> 
>> On a similar note that while Mac's don't require file extensions it can make
>> life easier if you include them. A native Mac file consists of 2 parts- the
>> data fork and the resource fork. The data fork is obviously where the data
>> is. The resource fork is where the file type and icon are stored (along with
>> a few other things). This works wonderfully as long as your file stays in a
>> Mac environment but any time that files passes through another file system
>> it loses its resource fork. If the file has the correct extension the Mac
>> File Exchange utility will automatically associate it with the correct
>> program.
> 
> 
> 
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Welcome Lanette... great first post.  While I realized we had the two forks
I did not know that the resource fork was lost when passing thru another
environment. If you send a mac file to a mac friend thru email, does the
email client lose the resource fork or does this only occur when going to a
windows environment (ie: it's the windows system that dumps the resource
fork)?

Thanks,
Carolyn 

> On a similar note that while Mac's don't require file extensions it can make
> life easier if you include them. A native Mac file consists of 2 parts- the
> data fork and the resource fork. The data fork is obviously where the data
> is. The resource fork is where the file type and icon are stored (along with
> a few other things). This works wonderfully as long as your file stays in a
> Mac environment but any time that files passes through another file system
> it loses its resource fork. If the file has the correct extension the Mac
> File Exchange utility will automatically associate it with the correct
> program.

Paul,

I am wondering if file name length is an issue. If the Mac can handle 
31 characters and current Windows98 and 2000 handles 215 character 
file names, just use very descriptive names for the curve files. If 
there is someone out there on an older version of an OS or Photoshop 
couldn't they simply rename the files to be compatiable? As I recall 
earlier versions of Windows automatically renamed over long file 
names.

Anyone running Win 95 should be thinking upgrade.

Or is the name length of the curve, *.acv, files a Photoshop issue?

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> I think you are getting no suggestions regarding these problems 
> because they don't make any sense. The PC has more restriction of 
file 
> naming that the Mac, certainly more than 8 characters can be 
handled, 
> and no extensions are required.
> Also, workflows worked out on one should work on the other. I 
suspect 

> it has more to do with Photoshop and Epson driver settings.
> I could certainly be wrong, but that's my experience.
> T

The .acv files  can be any length up to 31 characters in PS 6 running on my
OS 9.1... and can include spaces/upper/lower case letters.

Best,
Carolyn

> Or is the name length of the curve, *.acv, files a Photoshop issue?
> 
> Martin

Carolyn,

Thanks for the info. I don't see any limitations unless it has 
something to do with older software or OS's.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> The .acv files  can be any length up to 31 characters in PS 6 
running on my
> OS 9.1... and can include spaces/upper/lower case letters.
> 
> Best,
> Carolyn
> 
> 
> > Or is the name length of the curve, *.acv, files a Photoshop 
issue?
> > 
> > Martin