Digital BW, The Print

Greetings,

Of those out there working with the 7000, is there anyone who 
has been working on a Mac platform and using the MIS Variable 
tone inks? If so, how has it been working out. Have heard 
rumors that it seems hard to get acceptable blacks. 

Are you startink with Paul's curves or striking out on your own? 
Piezography  Pro24 on the Mac seems a distant, possibly 
nonexistent dream. 

Any information you would be willing to share?

Butch Hulett

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., butchhul@a... wrote:
> Greetings,
> Of those out there working with the 7000, is there anyone who 
> has been working on a Mac platform and using the MIS 
Variable 
> tone inks?

I have a 7000, and I just tried the VM inks with their CFS. I know 
Rick Murai is in the midst of it too. We are both on Macs; Mike 
Kravit is on a PC.

Paul wrote the 7000 curves based on a PC. I was able to mess 
with his existing curves pretty easily to get it to match my monitor, 
although I will say, it's about the most UN-intuitive way of working 
that I've ever seen. Paul also seems to be interested and helpful 
toward getting Mac users up to speed.

In short, my issues were not with lack of black, but with air in the 
lines. Once I got to Bob on the phone, he was responsive and 
helpful, but he too was stumped. I seem to be the only one 
having this problem:

http://marktucker.com/epson/air.html

For that one day when it was working properly, the prints had an 
overall look of VERY long tonal range; many greys. But no real 
punchy black, like my MIS color dyes had just shown. But again, I 
still don't think I'd found the ultimate curve. (But Rick's response 
is: even when he prints a chip that's 100% black, it's still not very 
rich. I might concur with that. His is based on actual 
measurements; mine is based on gut feeling). The color/tone 
was very neutral though, which was pleasing. It just that the 
overall look wasn't very "exciting"; it didn't really move me very 
much.

So I've gone back to the MIS color dyes. Just for the air factor 
alone. Ironically, when I reinserted the 9000 carts with the dye, 
the air went away immediately. So go figure. And it's a relatively 
new 7000, so the septums are in good shape. 

As far as the Piezo avenue, there's just no way I'd buy a whole 
other computer, and a PC with it's learning curve, just to run the 
printer. It's just not an option. But I will say, and agreeing with 
Tyler, you guys can bitch-and-moan about JCone's prices, but he 
went the extra mile (and I mean EXTRA mile), to make sure that 
the software was there, and you spent your time printing 
photographs, rather than grey wedges. His deal is about as 
plug'n'play is it gets; I had it with my old 3000, and I still would 
have it, but the 3000's paper advance mechanism just wasn't up 
to snuff. Maybe it was just my particular 3000, but the banding 
was always there.

I might let the look-and-feel of your own particular images dictate 
whether you'd do the VM route; if your images are long-scale and 
delicate, and you're willing to futz around with the technical side 
some, you might pursue it. If your images are more bold, or 
contrasty, or snappy, I might shy away from it. 

Also, I sometimes tone pretty warm, and the warmest of the 
warms with VM is still pretty neutral. So just know that the gamut 
is pretty narrow, compared to toning with color inks. For warm, 
think "old Portriga 111".

Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com

I have an Epson 7000 using a Mac OS and several  questions:

#1 Can I switch inks from the Epson generic inks to the MIS VM inks 
with impunity and without fear of a ink jet clog that will ruin my 
machine. I assume I can do this without the purge cartridges. Can 
people confirm this so I can sleep the night before I switch ink 
sets. Has anyone gotten a clog in this change that cannot be cleared?

#2 After installation of the MIS inks, can they be later switched to 
the Cone inkset if needed or even later be switched back to the Epson 
inkset? Again is any sort of purging needed in changing these inksets.

#3   Mike Kravit wrote on Wednesday that:
With respect to the comparison I made to Nij in my last post I feel
it only fair to say that after using both systems for 2 months I have
decided to use the Piezography BW24Pro RIP as my primary system of
choice. Mike, Does this mean that you are  dedicating your  machine 
to the Cone system and not using the MIS inks at all. You also said 
something about the Cone system having the feel of a platinum: ( I 
like the "platinum like" feel that I get with Piezo.) What did you 
mean by this for my Cone inks on my 3000 are  very cool and not warm 
like you would expect with platinum.

#4 Why did Cone go to a RIP in this process and not go through the 
printer driver directly making their system much more affordable? I 
believe their software for the RIP runs some $2500 which is not 
cheap. What advantage does the RIP serve. Mike: can you see the 
difference in the prints between the Cone and the MIS in terms of 
sharpness, dot or tonality.

#5 I am a former platinum printer and I definitely favor the 
brown/sepia tone evident in platinum to the cooler silver gelatine. I 
would like to choose an inkset and system that prints on the warmer 
side using an Epson 7000. What is my best bet at this point?

Stephen Harrison

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., butchhul@a... wrote:
>>  Greetings,
>>  Of those out there working with the 7000, is there anyone who
>>  has been working on a Mac platform and using the MIS
>Variable
>
>  > tone inks?
>I have a 7000, and I just tried the VM inks with their CFS. I know
>Rick Murai is in the midst of it too. We are both on Macs; Mike
>Kravit is on a PC.
>
>Paul wrote the 7000 curves based on a PC. I was able to mess
>with his existing curves pretty easily to get it to match my monitor,
>although I will say, it's about the most UN-intuitive way of working
>that I've ever seen. Paul also seems to be interested and helpful
>toward getting Mac users up to speed.
>
>In short, my issues were not with lack of black, but with air in the
>lines. Once I got to Bob on the phone, he was responsive and
>helpful, but he too was stumped. I seem to be the only one
>having this problem:
>
>http://marktucker.com/epson/air.html
>
>For that one day when it was working properly, the prints had an
>overall look of VERY long tonal range; many greys. But no real
>punchy black, like my MIS color dyes had just shown. But again, I
>still don't think I'd found the ultimate curve. (But Rick's response
>is: even when he prints a chip that's 100% black, it's still not very
>rich. I might concur with that. His is based on actual
>measurements; mine is based on gut feeling). The color/tone
>was very neutral though, which was pleasing. It just that the
>overall look wasn't very "exciting"; it didn't really move me very
>much.
>
>So I've gone back to the MIS color dyes. Just for the air factor
>alone. Ironically, when I reinserted the 9000 carts with the dye,
>the air went away immediately. So go figure. And it's a relatively
>new 7000, so the septums are in good shape.
>
>As far as the Piezo avenue, there's just no way I'd buy a whole
>other computer, and a PC with it's learning curve, just to run the
>printer. It's just not an option. But I will say, and agreeing with
>Tyler, you guys can bitch-and-moan about JCone's prices, but he
>went the extra mile (and I mean EXTRA mile), to make sure that
>the software was there, and you spent your time printing
>photographs, rather than grey wedges. His deal is about as
>plug'n'play is it gets; I had it with my old 3000, and I still would
>have it, but the 3000's paper advance mechanism just wasn't up
>to snuff. Maybe it was just my particular 3000, but the banding
>was always there.
>
>I might let the look-and-feel of your own particular images dictate
>whether you'd do the VM route; if your images are long-scale and
>delicate, and you're willing to futz around with the technical side
>some, you might pursue it. If your images are more bold, or
>contrasty, or snappy, I might shy away from it.
>
>Also, I sometimes tone pretty warm, and the warmest of the
>warms with VM is still pretty neutral. So just know that the gamut
>is pretty narrow, compared to toning with color inks. For warm,
>think "old Portriga 111".
>
>Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Mark wrote:

>Paul wrote the 7000 curves based on a PC. ...

Yes, the Mac needs a revised set of curves.  The system is definitely not
plug & play until the set of curves is written.  Writing the curves is
difficult if you haven't done such things before.  Once one gets the hang of
it, it's less of a problem.

I have been writing the curves as people get the systems.  This is a new
inkset, so the process has not been done for the 7000-Mac combination yet.
What I do is make adjustments based on e-mailed scans of test prints.  It
takes a number of iterations of this process.  However, since we have sorted
out the settings for the 7000, it shouldn't take too long.

So far, I've just seen one set of test strip scans from a 7000 and Mac.
They were not too far off, and they were consistent in the tonal
distortions, so it is probably just the expected platform differences.  I
know of no reason the 7000 and MIS VM inkset won't work with the Mac just as
well as it does with the PC.

>... the prints had an overall look of VERY long tonal range;
>many greys. But no real punchy black, like my MIS color dyes
>had just shown. ...

The black ink in the MIS VM (variable tone) mix is essentially identical to
the Piezo black.  In my view this (Piezo and MIS VM) is the best pigmented
black.  It is darker than the MIS color inkset black.  It is not as dark as
dye blacks -- no pigmented black can be with today's technology.  When one
opts for pigments, it's a trade-off between ultimate black and longer print
life.  The Piezo/MIS VM black, however, is very good.

This appearance of weak blacks is the same issue Piezo users faced after
coming from systems that compressed the shadow tones.  The Piezo software
for the 3000 and 1160 used a straight-line characteristic curve.  So does
the variable-tone system -- at least the curves I'm writing.  I think the
straight-line curves make the most efficient use of the original file's
dynamic range.

So, the issue of the appearance of blacks is really a matter of what one
does to the file.  You can apply an "S" curve to the file and you'll get the
punchy-black look that is just the same as if the driver did it for you.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Partial answers, Steve,

> #1 Can I switch inks from the Epson generic inks to the MIS VM inks 
> with impunity and without fear of a ink jet clog that will ruin my 
> machine. I assume I can do this without the purge cartridges. Can 
> people confirm this so I can sleep the night before I switch ink 
> sets. Has anyone gotten a clog in this change that cannot be cleared?

Yes, I did it with no apparent downside. Just follow the directions for 
transporting the printer, it will purge and recharge the lines. It will 
take the printing of several "purge" images (MIS website) to get the 
old ink out, but eventually you'll be fine.


> #2 After installation of the MIS inks, can they be later switched to 
> the Cone inkset if needed or even later be switched back to the Epson 
> inkset? Again is any sort of purging needed in changing these inksets.
> 

I believe the problem is only with Lyson inks, as their solvents are 
different and can cause sludging if they mix with the MIS inks. I would 
purge anyways, though (see above).  Mike Kravit can answer this one 
from experience. I've not yet done it though I'm nearing the point 
where I'm finished testing the MIS inks and may be going to the 
PiezoBWPro24 setup.  MIS inks are not really the problem so much as I'm 
just unhappy with the Epson driver.  It doesn't appear to be a match 
for the Piezo software for a sharp, dotless image and ultra-smooth 
tonal range.  Additionally I don't care for having to work in RGB (my 
grey scale images are over 100MB to start with) and all the 
accompanying curve stuff you have to go through.

> #5 I am a former platinum printer and I definitely favor the 
> brown/sepia tone evident in platinum to the cooler silver gelatine. I 
> would like to choose an inkset and system that prints on the warmer 
> side using an Epson 7000. What is my best bet at this point?

I find that Piezo inks, when printed on the archival papers (not EAM), 
print a little green initially but then shift to a beautiful brownish 
tone after about 2 weeks in the light.  EAM is an exception to this, 
but of course it's not an archival paper.

Phil
http://philbard.com

Stephen,

I will try to answer your questions as best as I can.

#1. Yes, you can switch between inksets but I am not sure you would want to do it on a regular basis. My reasoning would be that switching inks consumes quite a bit of ink as first you purge the ink and then refill the printer. The 7000 hold quite a bit of ink and ink is expensive.

Further, the waste ink pads located in the vacuum chamber will need replacement sooner than normal with regular ink changes. They are not cheap to replace as Epson requires their service technician to perform the service.  I have read that some folks are changing themselves by replacing them with feminine hygiene napkins.

Should you encounter a clog that can not be cleared, the printer can be serviced by Epson. Epson makes a big deal about using third party inks, but can not void your warranty. Should the printer be damaged by the inks, they can refuse to replace the parts under warranty.

I have changed inks in my 7000 at least 5 times in the past year. I used the original Epson dyes, Stadtler Pigments, Generations Pigments, MIS Original Quads, MIS Variables, and Piezography Inks. I have never had a serious clogging problem. When first switching to Piezo Inks I had to let the printer sit overnight to clear the clog.

#2. I believe I answered this question in #1 as well. I always purge all inks before re-filling. The 7000 does this when you remove the carts and turn off the printer. I also always use a flushing fluid to clean out the old inks before changing inksets. Some people do not flush, but for me the risk is not worth the 10 extra minutes.

#3. I also used to print platinum/palladium until I became sensitized to the potassium oxalate developer.  The Piezo prints on the 7000 exhibit a warm tone on the papers I use. Primarily Hahnemuhle William Turner, German Etching and Torchon.  As time goes on they do warm up a bit more. Last week I compared a Piezo print side by side with one of my platinum prints made with 95% platinum and 5% palladium. The tones were amazingly close in color. My 100% palladium prints however are much warmer than the Piezo prints.

#4. The Piezo prints made on the BW24Pro RIP do not have dots. They do have a slight dither pattern that in reminiscent of the Iris herringbone pattern only much finer.  I have not compared the RIP to the plug in. The RIP is easy to use, and runs without the use of Photoshop, a very convenient feature. You may want to look at Cones page to see what he describes the benefits to be.

#5. The MIS Variable tone inks with the warm curve definitely print warmer than the Piezo inks, but not substantially so.  I believe that the closest to a platinum print you will get is with the Piezo system. The MIS Variables will let you approach the look of a silver gelatin print.

Try to get samples of prints made using both systems. Then make a decision and give the chosen system a serious amount of time to formulate a valid opinion of what it can do and what it can not. I don't think you can go wrong with either system.  What works for me in my studio may not work for you in yours.

Good luck,

Mike

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Stephen Harrison <sh@s...> 
wrote:
> #4 Why did Cone go to a RIP in this process and not go through the 
> printer driver directly making their system much more affordable? I 
> believe their software for the RIP runs some $2500 which is not 
> cheap. What advantage does the RIP serve. Mike: can you see the 
> difference in the prints between the Cone and the MIS in terms of 
> sharpness, dot or tonality.
> 
> Stephen Harrison


The idea was that it would be for production environments, not for a 
personal home printer. This is why it is for a pc (if you are willing 
to pay the $2000+ for it why not spend another $500 for a pc and be 
free of hosting the printer?)

 The RIP has extra features designed for printing multiple editions and 
whatnot. It was also 16bit from the start. If it were a plugin and not 
a standalone rip it will still cost the same. Other RIPS designed for 
the printing industry cost 2-5 times what it does.

This is not to say that I wouldn't like it to be cheaper and run on 
macs but oh well. 
I do not have one but would like to. Maybe someday...  I have to get a 
better scanner first.

-mikeH

snip>
<< #4 Why did Cone go to a RIP in this process and not go through the 
 > printer driver directly making their system much more affordable? I 
 > believe their software for the RIP runs some $2500  >>

The actual Piezo pro Package is currently priced at 2130.00 down a little 
since its debut! Dont forget, in that price you get 6 110ml carts that sell 
for 450.00 plus the 6 flush carts worth at least 100.00 so the driver is 
about 1600.00 shipped. 
Any sign of a discount on the inks or price break from here, I'll be on the 
phone.
Steve M.

The other reasons for the PC, if I remember correctly were a problem with
theway the Mac handles printing (can't remember what) and the need for
another computer to serve the printer so the 'work' pc/mac isn't tied up for
an hour while the printer prints one of those big images!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <mh@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 5:46 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 7000: MAC or PC


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Stephen Harrison <sh@s...>
> wrote:
> > #4 Why did Cone go to a RIP in this process and not go through the
> > printer driver directly making their system much more affordable? I
> > believe their software for the RIP runs some $2500 which is not
> > cheap. What advantage does the RIP serve. Mike: can you see the
> > difference in the prints between the Cone and the MIS in terms of
> > sharpness, dot or tonality.
> >
> > Stephen Harrison
>
>
> The idea was that it would be for production environments, not for a
> personal home printer. This is why it is for a pc (if you are willing
> to pay the $2000+ for it why not spend another $500 for a pc and be
> free of hosting the printer?)
>
>  The RIP has extra features designed for printing multiple editions and
> whatnot. It was also 16bit from the start. If it were a plugin and not
> a standalone rip it will still cost the same. Other RIPS designed for
> the printing industry cost 2-5 times what it does.
>
> This is not to say that I wouldn't like it to be cheaper and run on
> macs but oh well.
> I do not have one but would like to. Maybe someday...  I have to get a
> better scanner first.
>
> -mikeH
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>