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Pail black images using pigment ink

Pail black images using pigment ink

2003-02-13 by rickarddahlstrand <rd@tilde.se>

Hi,

I have been using my epson 1290 for a while now and using the 
original ink and the epson ICC profiles I have been getting really 
nice images on my archive matte paper.

Then I started using a CFS system from MIS and pigmented ink and the 
images are really pail. The black is the main problem. When I print 
a high contrast b&w image I it looks really bad.

I have been using MonacoEZcolor to profile the printer after the ink 
change. When I convert to the created profile in photoshop the black 
level in the image drops. (I used Gamma 1.8 when I made the profiles)

I have put a image that I have converted to my profile on 
http://tilde.se/compare.jpg and the profile is on 
http://tilde.se/Skrivareprofil.icm

Can I improve the black level in my images in any way? Am I doing 
anything wrong?

Thanks, Rickard.

Re: Pail black images using pigment ink

2003-02-13 by Clayton Jones <cj@cjcom.net>

Hello Rickard,

> Can I improve the black level in my images in any way? Am I doing 
> anything wrong?

One thing is to check the black areas with the densitometer in
Photoshop and make sure they are at RGB 0 (or 100% on the % scale).  
If they are at a value greater than 0 they aren't truly black, and
this will show up with the pigment inks, where they might get by with
the dye inks because of their greater Dmax.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Pail black images using pigment ink

2003-02-13 by Seth Rossman

Sorry, Clayton, I don't really agree with that.  Most things between 0 and
~13 in PS are too black for an ink to differentiate -- they're just black.
Same applies to white. Anything above 244-246 is a specular highlight;
therefore, just paper white. 

Just MHO.  Not a new thread!!

Seth


=-----Original Message-----
=From: Clayton Jones <cj@...> [mailto:cj@...] 
=Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:28 AM
=To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
=Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Pail black images using pigment ink
=
=
=Hello Rickard,
=
=> Can I improve the black level in my images in any way? Am I doing
=> anything wrong?
=
=One thing is to check the black areas with the densitometer in 
=Photoshop and make sure they are at RGB 0 (or 100% on the % scale).  
=If they are at a value greater than 0 they aren't truly black, 
=and this will show up with the pigment inks, where they might 
=get by with the dye inks because of their greater Dmax.
=
=Regards,
=Clayton
=
=
=Info on black and white digital printing at    
=http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
=
=
=Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
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[Digital BW] Re: Pail black images using pigment ink

2003-02-13 by Clayton Jones <cj@cjcom.net>

Hello Seth,

>Sorry, Clayton, I don't really agree with that.  Most things between 
>0 and ~13 in PS are too black for an ink to differentiate -- they're 
>just black.  Same applies to white. Anything above 244-246 is a
>specular highlight;  therefore, just paper white. 

I have to disagree.  First, in pure theory 0 is black and anything
above 0 is not black, and 255 is white, etc.  But that's just theory,
what about practical reality?  In my experience I can see a difference
in a print by shifting a dark area by as little as 2 RGB units (less
than 1%).  In addition, I have on two occasions had people look at my
sample prints and ask something like "How did you get such good
blacks, I use the same ink and don't get that?"  In both cases I
recommended they check the RGB values, and in both cases they reported
back that indeed, the values were around 5 to 7 (looked black on
screen) and when they lowered them to 0 they got the deep black.

As for the whites, when I print in BO an area that is 255 there is
bare paper, no dots.  But if I move it to 254, a few widely spaced
dots appear.  The point here is that the printer and driver are
sensitive to and respond to that small of a change.  Can it be seen
with the eye? 

Well, when I look at a BO print of the the continuous gray scale on
Paul's enhanced gray scale image (the step wedges are too crude - look
at the smooth scale) I can see a continuous lightening all the way to
the edge.  With an 8x loupe I can see the dots getting further apart,
and just before the edge, maybe a 64th of an inch away, they stop. 
The Photoshop densitometer shows this to be the point where it goes
from 254 to 255.

In actual real world practice, I have many times worked with a
contrast curve on an image, made a print, moved a point on the curve
as few as 2 RGB units, and seen a difference in the print (and cannot
see it on screen).  I regularly work on that fine a level in the final
stages of working up an image.  

But don't take my word for it.  Try it.  I don't know what printing
technique you use, but it's easily seen with BO printing.  In the
highlights you can see the dots getting further apart until they stop,
and in the blacks you can see the scale getting darker right to the edge.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

[Digital BW] Re: Pail black images using pigment ink

2003-02-13 by danielstaver <daniel@petraflux.com>

> I have on two occasions had people look at my
> sample prints and ask something like "How did you get such good
> blacks, I use the same ink and don't get that?"  In both cases I
> recommended they check the RGB values, and in both cases they reported
> back that indeed, the values were around 5 to 7 (looked black on
> screen) and when they lowered them to 0 they got the deep black.

Clayton pointed this out to me after I sent him one of my prints, and
it turns out I had overcompensated for the black point in the curve I
made for PowerRIP. When I investigated more closely it turns out I
could distinguish values all the way down do 1-2%... Try printing 1%
step-wedges from 0-5% and examine them closely, most likely you'll be
able to tell them apart. After this experience I always measure the
black points with the densitometer in Photoshop before I make a print.
Very often I need to bring the black down by up to 10% to get a true
black, even though I percieve the color as black on my calibrated screen.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Pail black images using pigment ink

2003-02-14 by Jerry Olson

Seth, I can tell the difference between the 1 and 5 percent black
swatches. easily. Maybe you need your curve tweaked a bit.

Jerry

Seth Rossman wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Sorry, Clayton, I don't really agree with that.  Most things between 0 and
> ~13 in PS are too black for an ink to differentiate -- they're just black.
> Same applies to white. Anything above 244-246 is a specular highlight;
> therefore, just paper white.
> 
> Just MHO.  Not a new thread!!
> 
> Seth
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Pail black images using pigment ink

2003-02-14 by Carolyn Frayn

On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 10:29  AM, Seth Rossman wrote:

>
> Sorry, Clayton, I don't really agree with that.  Most things between 0 
> and
> ~13 in PS are too black for an ink to differentiate -- they're just 
> black.
> Same applies to white. Anything above 244-246 is a specular highlight;
> therefore, just paper white.
>
> Just MHO.  Not a new thread!!
>
> Seth
>


You're speaking offset press values, for setting files at the max and 
min dot a press can handle some presses require a 2 to 5% dot as you've 
sort of described... you set your whitest white in your image that is 
not a specular highlight with your white eyedropper (that has been set 
at the required dot percentage), letting the specular highlights (if 
there are any) fall to paper white. Setting your black point at a value 
of 13 gives the image a 95% black, not something you want to do when 
printing quads...
It's not the ink. It is the ability of the partitioned workflow/ 
driver/ RIP/ Profile/ whatever to separate the steps as you have 
prepared them within your file... I do this better than I write it, I 
hope that came out with some sense.
Carolyn

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