Digital BW, The Print

How neutral can you get your B&W images with the Epson 2200 printer 
and Premium Lustre paper? 

I've been using the GreyBalancer software downloaded and translated 
from the Epson/France website. Several months ago, after a good deal 
of trial and error, I settled on a series of GB settings that got me 
semi-neutral, albeit slightly greenish black and white images on 
Premium Lustre paper. 

Now that I've had the printer awhile longer and have gained a more 
sensitive eye to the situation, I'd like to fine tune my GB settings 
to get a more neutral image. My problem is this issue of so-called 
metamerism. I look at the images under varying light conditions, and 
the tonalty changes all over the map. Under incandescent lighting, 
the images seem warm or even reddish, and under daylight they take on 
a greenish tinge. Since my prints are going to be viewed in doors, I 
decided to calibrate under incandenscent lighting, but even with 
that, I can't get them really neutral.

What kind of results have you folks had with this 
printer/software/paper combo?

-Robert Ades

on 3/3/03 3:10 PM, Robert <LA_Native@...> at LA_Native@...
wrote:

> How neutral can you get your B&W images with the Epson 2200 printer
> and Premium Lustre paper?

Hi Robert,
I just recently bough the 2200 myself and have been researching various ways
of getting that elusive neutral. First, my grayscale prints are fairly
neutral right out of the box using printer color management. Fairly neutral
meaning a consistent grayscale hue but with a bit of a color cast. For me
it's slightly cyan or green. I've tried many things including Epson's free
downloadable Graybalancer but it hasn't worked to my taste. When I say
neutral that means to me dead on, silver print neutral (omitting the Brovira
to Portriga range). It should look B/W period under any light conditions.
That, as it turns out, is a tall order.
Here's what I've learned in a nutshell.
It is nearly impossible to get a consistent neutral across various paper
types grayscale image from systems relying on color inksets to provide your
B/W prints. The metamerism, from what I've been able to gather, is coming
form the mostly yellow inks in your B/W inkjet print combined with the
optics of your eye. RIPs like the Image Print 5 are eliminating a lot of
yellow etc. but I'm not sure this RIP is a good solution either for various
reasons.
Even the lightjet prints which are also a color system (although not inks)
are very difficult to get neutral and eliminate metamerism.  Sooo, I'm
beginning to feel that at this point Piezography which is using black and
gray inks only is probably the most neutral
B/W option. If you've been following the posts in the last few days you'll
see there have been some announcements in that department that are worth
looking into. I have at this point no experience with Piezography but will
be exploring it soon.
Good luck Robert.

Sue

Sue Tallon Photography
suetallon@...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You guys must be new to this group.  Check the archives.
This topic has been VERY heavily discussed here.  The
2200 out of the box with the default Epson driver has
a very serious problem with metamerism.    Several methods
are available to address it:

Black Only printing - use the black ink only.
Free, easy, dotty, contrasty.

The IP RIP - somewhere north of $500.  One of the
regulars here just sent me a sample print on it.  
Beautifully neutral, no metamerism, good shadow
detail, a bit more texture and dots than the default 
Epson driver, but probably acceptable for most people.

The Epson RIP - several people here like it.  I'm
hoping someone will offer to send me a sample print to
evaluate.  (Please, someone?)

Several companies are rumored to be on the verge of
announcing grayscale inksets for the 2200, if you
want to turn your 2200 into a dedicated black and white 
printer.

I now have a 2200 but plan to use it for color only, because I don't feel I can 
trust a very colorful inkset to stay dead neutral under all conditions and media. 
I saw a print exhibited as an "Ultrachrome Black and White" last month among 
art in various other media, and this print looked pink. I am going to continue 
using a quadtone printer for B&W.

Regarding black-and-white on Lightjet-type printers: Does anyone produce 
black-and-white prints on these machines using black-and-white paper? 
Seems like that is the ultimate cure for a neutral digital B&W print, outside of a 
monochrome inkjet.

Conrad

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sue Tallon <
suetallon@b...> wrote:

> Even the lightjet prints which are also a color system (although not inks)
> are very difficult to get neutral and eliminate metamerism.  Sooo, I'm
> beginning to feel that at this point Piezography which is using black and
> gray inks only is probably the most neutral

On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 01:08:50AM -0000, bbstudio_photo <bbstudio_photo@...> wrote:
> Regarding black-and-white on Lightjet-type printers: Does anyone produce 
> black-and-white prints on these machines using black-and-white paper? 

http://www.reedphoto.com/

-- 
Tony Terlecki
ajt@...

Hello Robert,

I might be able to shed some light on the reason for the cyan cast in 
your prints. I don't use an Epson printer but I think the problem 
exists regardless which brand of printer that is used. For the 
record, I use a Canon s750, not the best for printing black and 
white; but I have managed to eliminate the cyan cast by using black 
ink only. I've read a previous post which seemed to indicate there 
was not much control in using black only. You WILL get dots, but if 
the print isn't placed up to your nose, they aren't very noticeable. 
The middle grays do seem to show more than the other ends of the 
grayscale, though it may be my printer. I have asked several times if 
anyone has the same indications as mine, but all the Epson users 
don't seem to have the answer either. There is a very thorough 
website hosted by Clayton Jones www.cjcom.net/digipmarts.htm that 
give a very good explanation and techinque for doing the black only 
printing. No additional expense involved either because all it uses 
is your existing black ink cartridge. Try it and see if it fits your 
needs. Jone Cone's company is coming out with a BW ink system that 
uses ICC profiles with quad or hex ink cartridges to produce cast-
free images, or so the news release said. Hope some of this helps you 
out. Oh I use cheap Office Depot Matte paper. Probably better results 
will come with better paper than I use.

Your friend in photography,

Johnny Eades


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Robert 
<LA_Native@h...>" <LA_Native@h...> wrote:
> How neutral can you get your B&W images with the Epson 2200 printer 
> and Premium Lustre paper? 
> 
> I've been using the GreyBalancer software downloaded and translated 
> from the Epson/France website. Several months ago, after a good 
deal 
> of trial and error, I settled on a series of GB settings that got 
me 
> semi-neutral, albeit slightly greenish black and white images on 
> Premium Lustre paper. 
> 
> Now that I've had the printer awhile longer and have gained a more 
> sensitive eye to the situation, I'd like to fine tune my GB 
settings 
> to get a more neutral image. My problem is this issue of so-called 
> metamerism. I look at the images under varying light conditions, 
and 
> the tonalty changes all over the map. Under incandescent lighting, 
> the images seem warm or even reddish, and under daylight they take 
on 
> a greenish tinge. Since my prints are going to be viewed in doors, 
I 

> decided to calibrate under incandenscent lighting, but even with 
> that, I can't get them really neutral.
> 
> What kind of results have you folks had with this 
> printer/software/paper combo?
> 
> -Robert Ades

Peter:

I am relatively new to the group, so please pardon me for not doing 
the requisite search on this subject.  I have been reading about 
several RIP software products, but I guess my question really relates 
to how good can you get your images using Epson inksets with Epson 
standard drivers.  We should be able to obtain satisfactory results 
w/o having to pay extra to Epson or whomever to get what Epson 
promised in its literature, no?

-Robert A

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson 
<peter@s...>" <peter@s...> wrote:

> 
> You guys must be new to this group.  Check the archives.
> This topic has been VERY heavily discussed here.  The
> 2200 out of the box with the default Epson driver has
> a very serious problem with metamerism.    Several methods
> are available to address it:
> 
> Black Only printing - use the black ink only.
> Free, easy, dotty, contrasty.
> 
> The IP RIP - somewhere north of $500.  One of the
> regulars here just sent me a sample print on it.  
> Beautifully neutral, no metamerism, good shadow
> detail, a bit more texture and dots than the default 
> Epson driver, but probably acceptable for most people.
> 
> The Epson RIP - several people here like it.  I'm
> hoping someone will offer to send me a sample print to
> evaluate.  (Please, someone?)
> 
> Several companies are rumored to be on the verge of
> announcing grayscale inksets for the 2200, if you
> want to turn your 2200 into a dedicated black and white 
> printer.

Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and even the BW
is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still looks great
though!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Terlecki" <ajt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 3:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How neutral are your B&W prints on the Epson 2200?


> On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 01:08:50AM -0000, bbstudio_photo
<bbstudio_photo@...> wrote:
> > Regarding black-and-white on Lightjet-type printers: Does anyone produce
> > black-and-white prints on these machines using black-and-white paper?
>
> http://www.reedphoto.com/
>
> --
> Tony Terlecki
> ajt@...
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>
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>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> I am relatively new to the group, so please pardon me for not doing 
> the requisite search on this subject.  I have been reading about 
> several RIP software products, but I guess my question really relates 
> to how good can you get your images using Epson inksets with Epson 
> standard drivers.

Not good. There are no workflows involving the Epson driver that will
help you with metamerism in any way. At best your prints will look
neutral under one specific type of light. But even then it's really
difficult, I can notice shifts in color just by moving prints between
the two lights on my desk.

> We should be able to obtain satisfactory results 
> w/o having to pay extra to Epson or whomever to get what Epson 
> promised in its literature, no?

Agreed. Unfortunately that doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon.

If you want to see what a RIP will get you, try the free demo of
iProof PowerRIP:

http://www.iproofsystems.com/epson/pcsupportepson.htm

Unlike some of the other RIPs it's actually really easy to use. You
just select paper type and dpi and print. It doesn't use any special
grayscale settings, so you can easily combine color and black and
white, or tone your prints in photoshop any way you want. However, the
dithering will be slightly more coarse than with the Epson driver,
even at 2880 dpi. This, combined with the lower price, might make the
Epson RIP a better choice if you actually decide to buy one.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and even the BW
> is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still looks great
> though!
> 
> Julian

It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and White 
papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have seen 
that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible since 
I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively low cost 
for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have dedicated 
one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy with B&W 
on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced upon us.

I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked like 
fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive look 
right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone know 
if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?

-mh

I am reposting this with a better subject:

> It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and White papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have seen that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible since I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively low cost for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have dedicated one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy with B&W on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced upon us.

 I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked like 
fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive look 
right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone know 
if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?
 
> -mh

However they still need rgb files and it is processed in colour chemistry
which is why I still class it as a 'colour-type' paper. You cannot give them
a greyscale file. How you convert your file from greyscale to rgb isn't as
easy as a straight PS move - I've spent a loooong time researching this and
getting samples. All labs can print on BW RGB paper but this is not a
straight equivalent to even an RC BW paper. very good results are possible
but it is not the same as a BW FB analogue print.

Julian

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <mh@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How neutral are your B&W prints on the Epson 2200?


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and even the
BW
> > is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still looks
great
> > though!
> >
> > Julian
>
> It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and White
> papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have seen
> that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible since
> I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively low cost
> for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have dedicated
> one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy with B&W
> on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced upon us.
>
> I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked like
> fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive look
> right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone know
> if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?
>
> -mh
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Robert 
<LA_Native@h...>" <LA_Native@h...> wrote:
> Peter:
> 
> I am relatively new to the group, so please pardon me for not doing 
> the requisite search on this subject.  I have been reading about 
> several RIP software products, but I guess my question really 
relates 
> to how good can you get your images using Epson inksets with Epson 
> standard drivers.  We should be able to obtain satisfactory results 
> w/o having to pay extra to Epson or whomever to get what Epson 
> promised in its literature, no?

No.

Not according to Epson, anyway.   Obviously it depends on your
standards and requirements and how well you can talk
yourself into believing things.    For instance, right out
of the box you can do black only printing.   Some people 
aren't bothered by the little dots, or they say "dots remind
me of grain; I *like* grain!".  Or some people get a magenta
cast using the full inkset but it doesn't bother them if
they can convince themselves it's not magenta; it's "warm".

I'm not trying to be flip (no not much. . . ) but it really
does depend on your requirements and expectations.  I think
the black and white output of the 2200 with the stock
software absolutely sucks and I'm pretty sure this is
the majority view.

on 3/4/03 4:27 AM, Julian Thomas at julianthomas@... wrote:

> However they still need rgb files and it is processed in colour chemistry
> which is why I still class it as a 'colour-type' paper. You cannot give them
> a greyscale file. How you convert your file from greyscale to rgb isn't as
> easy as a straight PS move - I've spent a loooong time researching this and
> getting samples. All labs can print on BW RGB paper but this is not a
> straight equivalent to even an RC BW paper. very good results are possible
> but it is not the same as a BW FB analogue print.

What is B/W RGB paper and where does it say at Reed that they're using B/W
paper?  I've seen some stunning B/W, dead neutral, you'd think it was a B/W
silver print 4' x 4' Lightjet prints in the lobby of Pictopia here in
Berkeley. I sent them a grayscale image for a test and got back a green/cyan
print. I talked with them about achieving the quality they have displayed in
their lobby and apparently that requires testing, patience and balance to a
certain light source ie halogens, daylight,tungsten etc.. It can be done but
you have to work with the process and not expect your prints to be
metamerism free. 


Sue

Sue Tallon Photography
suetallon@...

Hi,

Hopefully someone who has some experience with Image Print can help me. I¹ve
only started using it and have 3 issues.

I¹m on Mac OSX 10.2.4 with a G4 450 with 2GB of ram.

1) I have got a perfect B&W print on Han. Photo Rag 308 gsm using the tint
picker and the ImagePrint gray profile. The tint picker gives a slight warm
tone. For some reason I cannot duplicate this same tone. All my other print
come out dead neutral. Any ideas? The tint picker settings are the same as
before.

2) In the manual it says that (in OSX) I can edit the spool face files after
printing, by double clicking on it. It doesn¹t work. I double click (when it
is on the right side of the panel) and nothing.

3) I got perfect results on the hannamule using the gray profiles, however
am unable to match them on the Epson glossy papers using the Photo inks and
the ImagePrint gray profiles.


Any help would be appreciated.


Lorne Resnick
http://lorneresnick.com/
Lorne@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I contacted reed by phone and they verified that they do use their 
LightJets with traditional B&W paper with traditional chemistry. Looks 
to be about 8 times the cost of the cheap frontier output on Fuji 
Crystal Archive so I won't go going that route very often.

Here are the costs:
8x10  $16.00
11x14  $21.25
16x20  $31.50 
20x24  $40.50

Julian, I would like to hear more about your research regarding moving 
from GS to RGB and the lightjet samples. Are you attempting to get as 
neutral a print as possible or are you trying to tone it somewhat to 
get a more pleasing result?

-mh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
julianthomas@t...> wrote:

> However they still need rgb files and it is processed in colour chemistry
> which is why I still class it as a 'colour-type' paper. You cannot give them
> a greyscale file. How you convert your file from greyscale to rgb isn't as
> easy as a straight PS move - I've spent a loooong time researching this and
> getting samples. All labs can print on BW RGB paper but this is not a
> straight equivalent to even an RC BW paper. very good results are possible
> but it is not the same as a BW FB analogue print.
> 
> Julian
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <mh@t...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How neutral are your B&W prints on the Epson 2200?
> 
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" <
> > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > > Don't forget though that lightjets/lambdas are RGB devices and even the
> BW
> > > is a RC colour 'type' paper. Classic BW FB isn't possible. Still looks
> great
> > > though!
> > >
> > > Julian
> >
> > It appears that reedphoto.com does print on traditional Black and White
> > papers with their Lightjets. This is the first company that I have seen
> > that does this and wish more would. I assumed it wasn't possible since
> > I had never heard of a company doing it. Given the relatively low cost
> > for a Frontier, I would have thought a lot of labs would have dedicated
> > one to black and white printing. But I guess everyone is happy with B&W
> > on color paper; yet another "improvement" digital has forced upon us.
> >
> > I would be fine with color paper if it had a coating that looked like
> > fiber B&W glossy. Neither Glossy or "semi-matte" in Crytal Archive look
> > right for any B&W image of mine, even toned or duotoned.  Anyone know
> > if Fuji makes a true matte color paper?
> >
> > -mh