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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160

2003-03-04 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: <mh@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 11:12 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160


> Martin,
>
> Why do you think a 1270 could do it and an 1160 would not be up to it?
>
> -mh

My thought is that in this case where you are printing a color image with
the Epson inks on the Pictorico film the 6-ink 1270 or 1280 would have an
advantage over the 4-ink 1160. It has been a long time since I compared
color prints off these printers but I recall that the 6-ink printers did a
better job.

Martin

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" <
> mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ken Carney" <kcarney1@c...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 5:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital Negatives with 1160
> > >
> > > > With the hope of combining the strengths (while avoiding the
> > > > weaknesses) of the digital and wet darkrooms, I've been exploring
the
> > > > possibility of creating digital negatives with my 1160. I've read
> > > > that this can be done --
> > > > http://www.danburkholder.com/Pages/misc_pages/digital_neg_faq.htm --
> > > > however, I'm not sure just how much work, problems, troubleshooting,
> > > > etc. it would involve. If anyone on this list has gone down this
> > > > path, I'd be interesting in hearing about your experiences.
> > >
> > > I have.  As you no doubt know, this is a contact printing technique.
I
> > > think success will depend on what printing method you use.  If you
print
> > > silver prints, I would give it up and use a tried and true darkroom
> > method,
> > > i.e., an enlarger.  Silver paper, e.g., air-dried glossy fiber paper,
is
> > > pretty unforgiving.  OTOH, if you print "alt", such as palladium, it
may
> > > work out for you.  These prints are made on essentially watercolor
paper
> > and
> > > hide a lot of faults.  OTOH again, a pt/pd print will have a much
greater
> > > tonal range than a silver print.  A digital 8x10 neg is just not going
to
> > > give the same range and impact as an 8x10 in-camera negative.
> >
> > Ken,
> >
> > I would agree with you on the results with silver fiber but I have seen
> > palladium prints up to about 12X17 made from negatives done on a 1270
with
> > Epson dye inks. I find them indistinguishable from direct in-camera neg
> > prints. I doubt if an 1160 would be up to it though. Beautiful way to
work
> > and none of the carbon ink sets really matches the hues. Interestingly
the
> > Dmax on these prints is around 1.3 to 1.4 suggesting a much smaller
tonal
> > range than current inkjet prints. I have only tested a couple of samples
> > though and these may not be representative of the Dmax the medium can
> > achieve.
> >
> > I have a couple of silver prints from Lensworks done with imagesetter
negs
> > that you would not be able to pick out from prints made by traditionally
> > enlargement. Really high quality but as you say 3,600 or higher dpi is a
> > must.
> >
> > >  If I were
> > > you, to try it out without a lot of cost, I would use the service
bureau
> > > that Dan recommends and have negs made on at least a 3,600 dpi
> > imagesetter.
> > > The 2,400 dpi imagesetter you commonly see won't cut it.   If you
don't
> > like
> > > the results, the desktop solution (inkjet neg) sure isn't going to
work.
> >
> > Chris, if you deal with a service bureau by all means use one that has
done
> > this kind of work before. Otherwise you can waste a lot of money while
they
> > try and figure out what you want.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> > (snip)
>
>
>
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>

[Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160

2003-03-04 by mh <mh@toomanyartists.com>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" <
mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <mh@t...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 11:12 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160
> 
> 
> > Martin,
> >
> > Why do you think a 1270 could do it and an 1160 would not be up to it?
> >
> > -mh
> 
> My thought is that in this case where you are printing a color image with
> the Epson inks on the Pictorico film the 6-ink 1270 or 1280 would have an
> advantage over the 4-ink 1160. It has been a long time since I compared
> color prints off these printers but I recall that the 6-ink printers did a
> better job.
> 
> Martin

Ah yes, I thought that might be what you were thinking after I posted 
the question.  I think Dan uses piezography with good results. I 
imagine any of the inks people use here would work for it, since you 
have to work out your own test strips and probably tweak your own 
curves anyway (my personal opinion is that piezo plugin would be the 
easiest here since you wouldn't have to deal with two sets of curves 
adjustments)

-mh

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160

2003-03-04 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: <mh@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:25 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" <
> mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <mh@t...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 11:12 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160
> >
> >
(snip)
> >
> > My thought is that in this case where you are printing a color image
with
> > the Epson inks on the Pictorico film the 6-ink 1270 or 1280 would have
an
> > advantage over the 4-ink 1160. It has been a long time since I compared
> > color prints off these printers but I recall that the 6-ink printers did
a
> > better job.
> >
> > Martin
>
> Ah yes, I thought that might be what you were thinking after I posted
> the question.  I think Dan uses piezography with good results. I
> imagine any of the inks people use here would work for it, since you
> have to work out your own test strips and probably tweak your own
> curves anyway (my personal opinion is that piezo plugin would be the
> easiest here since you wouldn't have to deal with two sets of curves
> adjustments)
>
> -mh
>
I had heard that Dan was working with Piezo at one point but I thought there
were problems getting the carbon pig inks to stay put on the film. If you
did use the Piezo plug-in then the 1160 to 1270/80 difference would be much
less. Although I think I would still be inclined toward the newer printers.
The transparent dye inks seem like a better bet in theory but there are
probably problems getting sufficient negative density. As you say, whatever
path you take, there is going to be a significant period of tweaking thinks
in and figuring out what works.

Martin Wesley

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160

2003-03-04 by Paul Roark

I don't know what Dan was doing, but I did work with a Piezo driver and the
1160 for a while.  I even mixed a dye-based Piezo-compatible inkset for the
digital negative project.  However, while none of these inks have linear or
identical response curves, the dyes were way different than the pigments.
As a result, the Piezo driver did not work well; it was just not designed
for dyes.

I finally gave up the digital negative idea with quad printers.  The quality
just was not satisfactory for me.  A Fuji "Pictography" (I forget the
spelling now) printer did much better digital negatives, and they only cost
about $12.

With the new UC VM (RC compatible) and a hextone printer the results might
be quite good.  I suspect at least a 1270 is needed to satisfy most people.
These digital negatives show off the defects of the machines much more than
our matte papers.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
____________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:23 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: <mh@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:25 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160


  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" <
  > mwesley250@e...> wrote:
  > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > From: <mh@t...>
  > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 11:12 PM
  > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Negatives with 1160
  > >
  > >
  (snip)
  > >
  > > My thought is that in this case where you are printing a color image
  with
  > > the Epson inks on the Pictorico film the 6-ink 1270 or 1280 would have
  an
  > > advantage over the 4-ink 1160. It has been a long time since I
compared
  > > color prints off these printers but I recall that the 6-ink printers
did
  a
  > > better job.
  > >
  > > Martin
  >
  > Ah yes, I thought that might be what you were thinking after I posted
  > the question.  I think Dan uses piezography with good results. I
  > imagine any of the inks people use here would work for it, since you
  > have to work out your own test strips and probably tweak your own
  > curves anyway (my personal opinion is that piezo plugin would be the
  > easiest here since you wouldn't have to deal with two sets of curves
  > adjustments)
  >
  > -mh
  >
  I had heard that Dan was working with Piezo at one point but I thought
there
  were problems getting the carbon pig inks to stay put on the film. If you
  did use the Piezo plug-in then the 1160 to 1270/80 difference would be
much
  less. Although I think I would still be inclined toward the newer
printers.
  The transparent dye inks seem like a better bet in theory but there are
  probably problems getting sufficient negative density. As you say,
whatever
  path you take, there is going to be a significant period of tweaking
thinks
  in and figuring out what works.

  Martin Wesley



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