Digital BW, The Print

Hello,

This is my first post.  

I thought I was the only one who liked the look of Black Only prints, then I found this list.  I didn't realize that so many did it and that it was talked about so frequently the abbreviation "BO" was coined for it.  By the way, I don't mind that 2200 matte black is a little warm.  

I downloaded Roy Harrington's QuadtoneRIP because I wanted to try the Black and Light black only print on my 2200.  Now that is warm! Actually, in comparison, my black only prints look totally neutral.  

Now, here's the question that I have.  I've tried a bunch of different densities along with printing out the 21 step grayscale step wedge.. The problem is I can't get deep blacks that still separate. When I get the 100% and 95% to separate, the blacks just don't look that dark.  How can I fix this?  The step wedges I've printed with the black only look great despite the slight roughness.  I've set everything according to the recommended.  The highest density I can set while still getting shadow separation is about 1.1.  

The more tests I make, the more I feel like I'm running around in circles.  Help please!

Thank you!

I've been struggling with the same problem.  In fact, the 21 step 
wedges printed with the QuadToneRIP look very similar to wedges printed 
with the Epson driver using the No Color Adjustment setting (with a 
profile), which is known to be non-linear.  I've also tried lowering 
density to get better shadow separation but as you have noted this 
results in a lower black dMax.  However, you can get away with a lower 
density and better shadow separation using the Photo black on RC papers 
without losing as much Dmax.  I don't know of any other ways to resolve 
this problem, but perhaps Roy or others might have some suggestions.

On Monday, March 17, 2003, at 01:45  PM, thericker88 wrote:

> Hello,
>
> This is my first post.
>
> I thought I was the only one who liked the look of Black Only prints, 
> then I found this list.  I didn't realize that so many did it and that 
> it was talked about so frequently the abbreviation "BO" was coined for 
> it.  By the way, I don't mind that 2200 matte black is a little warm.
>
> I downloaded Roy Harrington's QuadtoneRIP because I wanted to try the 
> Black and Light black only print on my 2200.  Now that is warm! 
> Actually, in comparison, my black only prints look totally neutral.
>
> Now, here's the question that I have.  I've tried a bunch of different 
> densities along with printing out the 21 step grayscale step wedge.. 
> The problem is I can't get deep blacks that still separate. When I get 
> the 100% and 95% to separate, the blacks just don't look that dark.  
> How can I fix this?  The step wedges I've printed with the black only 
> look great despite the slight roughness.  I've set everything 
> according to the recommended.  The highest density I can set while 
> still getting shadow separation is about 1.1.
>
> The more tests I make, the more I feel like I'm running around in 
> circles.  Help please!
>
> Thank you!

I'm not sure that this approach...using CMYK controls...will ultimately work
for the BW printing with the ultrachrome printers...you need single channel
control...it may be less critical with a VM like set of inks.  The problem
is that when you alter the K you are leaving it up to gimp print to decide
how to make this from the black and light black.  This give you no way to
optimize dmax...which requires careful control of these inks and also
doesn't give you good control over shadows...which is also critically
dependent on balancing light black and black.  The dmax results that I'm
getting on RC papers are poor compared to what I'm getting using either
imageprint or ink jet control.  In these cases colorbyte has carefully
balanced the two inks and inkjet control, by giving you single channel
control, allows you to balance them yourself.  In addition I'm getting a
strange type of wavy vertical banding from the QuadtoneRIP that I do not get
with the same printer using Inkjet control or Imageprint.  It isn't
microbanding...you can't see it with a loupe...but it is easy to see with
your naked eye looking at a step wedge.

Robert

On 3/17/03 10:57 AM, "Carl Schofield" <scho@...> wrote:

> I've been struggling with the same problem.  In fact, the 21 step
> wedges printed with the QuadToneRIP look very similar to wedges printed
> with the Epson driver using the No Color Adjustment setting (with a
> profile), which is known to be non-linear.  I've also tried lowering
> density to get better shadow separation but as you have noted this
> results in a lower black dMax.  However, you can get away with a lower
> density and better shadow separation using the Photo black on RC papers
> without losing as much Dmax.  I don't know of any other ways to resolve
> this problem, but perhaps Roy or others might have some suggestions.
> 
> On Monday, March 17, 2003, at 01:45  PM, thericker88 wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> This is my first post.
>> 
>> I thought I was the only one who liked the look of Black Only prints,
>> then I found this list.  I didn't realize that so many did it and that
>> it was talked about so frequently the abbreviation "BO" was coined for
>> it.  By the way, I don't mind that 2200 matte black is a little warm.
>> 
>> I downloaded Roy Harrington's QuadtoneRIP because I wanted to try the
>> Black and Light black only print on my 2200.  Now that is warm!
>> Actually, in comparison, my black only prints look totally neutral.
>> 
>> Now, here's the question that I have.  I've tried a bunch of different
>> densities along with printing out the 21 step grayscale step wedge..
>> The problem is I can't get deep blacks that still separate. When I get
>> the 100% and 95% to separate, the blacks just don't look that dark.
>> How can I fix this?  The step wedges I've printed with the black only
>> look great despite the slight roughness.  I've set everything
>> according to the recommended.  The highest density I can set while
>> still getting shadow separation is about 1.1.
>> 
>> The more tests I make, the more I feel like I'm running around in
>> circles.  Help please!
>> 
>> Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl 
Schofield <scho@m...> wrote:
> I've been struggling with the same problem.  In fact, the 21 step 
> wedges printed with the QuadToneRIP look very similar to 
wedges printed 
> with the Epson driver using the No Color Adjustment setting 
(with a 
> profile), which is known to be non-linear.  I've also tried 
lowering 
> density to get better shadow separation but as you have noted 
this 
> results in a lower black dMax.  However, you can get away with 
a lower 
> density and better shadow separation using the Photo black 
on RC papers 
> without losing as much Dmax.  I don't know of any other ways 
to resolve 
> this problem, but perhaps Roy or others might have some 
suggestions.
> 
> On Monday, March 17, 2003, at 01:45  PM, thericker88 wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > This is my first post.
> >
> > I thought I was the only one who liked the look of Black Only 
prints, 
> > then I found this list.  I didn't realize that so many did it and 
that 
> > it was talked about so frequently the abbreviation "BO" was 
coined for 
> > it.  By the way, I don't mind that 2200 matte black is a little 
warm.
> >
> > I downloaded Roy Harrington's QuadtoneRIP because I 
wanted to try the 
> > Black and Light black only print on my 2200.  Now that is 
warm! 
> > Actually, in comparison, my black only prints look totally 
neutral.
> >
> > Now, here's the question that I have.  I've tried a bunch of 
different 
> > densities along with printing out the 21 step grayscale step 
wedge.. 
> > The problem is I can't get deep blacks that still separate. 
When I get 
> > the 100% and 95% to separate, the blacks just don't look that 
dark.  
> > How can I fix this?  The step wedges I've printed with the 
black only 
> > look great despite the slight roughness.  I've set everything 
> > according to the recommended.  The highest density I can 
set while 
> > still getting shadow separation is about 1.1.
> >
> > The more tests I make, the more I feel like I'm running 
around in 
> > circles.  Help please!
> >
> > Thank you!

Unfortunately, I don't have a 2200 to try things out and know
the results.  But this does sound somewhat similar to things
I've seen with quad inks on my 1160.

It seems that the gimp-print calibration is done such that 
there is a linear ink density response up to Density = 1.  But
that doesn't give the maximum possible dMax.  What I've
done with the quad curves is to use a Density = 2 and then
to compensate for a gradual leveling off of the ink density
response I have quite a steep black curve right at the end.

If you look at my CMK separation curve you'll see what I mean.

So for the 2200 what I would try is to use Density = 2 and
change the Black curve.  The idea is to go linearly up the ink
density you got back when you set Density = 1.  Then increase
the slope ending in the top corner.   Without a densitometer
reading I don't know where to tell you to put these points but
these two points in the Black curve should give you the
general idea.  (I=79%,O=61%) and (I=91%, O=76%)  
I've just made these up but if you put then you  can see there's
a break in slope between them -- this is where the dMax
using Density = 1 should be.  Move them up or down to
match dMax at Density = 1, move them right to increase the
shadow detail, left to make sure your whole picture doesn't
get too light.

It's awful hard to say this all clearly so email me if you have
questions about it.

Roy

On Monday, March 17, 2003, at 02:48  PM, Robert Morrison wrote:

Thanks for your comments Robert.
> I'm not sure that this approach...using CMYK controls...will 
> ultimately work
> for the BW printing with the ultrachrome printers...you need single 
> channel
> control...it may be less critical with a VM like set of inks.  The 
> problem
> is that when you alter the K you are leaving it up to gimp print to 
> decide
> how to make this from the black and light black.
You are right, I think that this is really a problem trying to control 
the two blacks
(and probably the C and M inks as well) through one channel.
I did notice that switching to 4 color standard mode turned off all of 
the light inks
but resulted in very coarse looking prints.
>   This give you no way to
> optimize dmax...which requires careful control of these inks and also
> doesn't give you good control over shadows...which is also critically
> dependent on balancing light black and black.  The dmax results that 
> I'm
> getting on RC papers are poor compared to what I'm getting using either
> imageprint or ink jet control.  In these cases colorbyte has carefully
> balanced the two inks and inkjet control, by giving you single channel
> control, allows you to balance them yourself.  In addition I'm getting 
> a
> strange type of wavy vertical banding from the QuadtoneRIP that I do 
> not get
> with the same printer using Inkjet control or Imageprint.  It isn't
> microbanding...you can't see it with a loupe...but it is easy to see 
> with
> your naked eye looking at a step wedge.
I've also noticed this, but only in step wedges printed at 2880x1440.

>
> Robert
>

On Monday, March 17, 2003, at 03:00  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

Thanks for the suggestions Roy.  I haven't had time to do much
with the black curve tweaking yet, but will work on it later this week.

> Unfortunately, I don't have a 2200 to try things out and know
> the results.  But this does sound somewhat similar to things
> I've seen with quad inks on my 1160.
>
> It seems that the gimp-print calibration is done such that
> there is a linear ink density response up to Density = 1.  But
> that doesn't give the maximum possible dMax.  What I've
> done with the quad curves is to use a Density = 2 and then
> to compensate for a gradual leveling off of the ink density
> response I have quite a steep black curve right at the end.
>
> If you look at my CMK separation curve you'll see what I mean.
>
> So for the 2200 what I would try is to use Density = 2 and
> change the Black curve.  The idea is to go linearly up the ink
> density you got back when you set Density = 1.  Then increase
> the slope ending in the top corner.   Without a densitometer
> reading I don't know where to tell you to put these points but
> these two points in the Black curve should give you the
> general idea.  (I=79%,O=61%) and (I=91%, O=76%)
> I've just made these up but if you put then you  can see there's
> a break in slope between them -- this is where the dMax
> using Density = 1 should be.  Move them up or down to
> match dMax at Density = 1, move them right to increase the
> shadow detail, left to make sure your whole picture doesn't
> get too light.
>
> It's awful hard to say this all clearly so email me if you have
> questions about it.
>
> Roy
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
> ---------------------~-->
> Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/ucIolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ~->
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls  
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to  
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject  
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the  
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>