Digital BW, The Print

I just printed all my 8x10 B&W's from a recent wedding on my 2200. Client
loved them. I even let them choose ahead if they wanted "wet" prints or
inkjet. They chose the inkjet. That was a first for me. Normally I will do
"proofs" with the 2200.

Chris
New Orleans

----- Original Message -----
From: "rogerbeck" <roger@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 1:03 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Weddings


> Hi All,
>
>
>
>
> I assume that a lot of people are on several similiar forums as i am
> 'cross posting' but i was interested to hear if any one that shoots
> weddings also prints digital B&W and what they are using and workflow
> and so on.  I print the color on a 7600 but need to set up a seperate
> B&W only printer
>
>
>
>
> Thanks, Regards, Roger
>
>
> 312-666-8216
>
>
> roger@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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"I just printed all my 8x10 B&W's from a recent wedding on my 2200. Client
loved them."

 . . . and that was with matte paper/ink?  What about the rub-off factor?  That is a big factor if my clients are expecting digital prints to look and behave like traditional prints.

Roger

Roger Beck Photography, Chicago 
312-666-8216

roger@...
www.rogerbeck.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The prints were on the Ilford Smooth Pearl which is just about instant dry.

The client was matting and framing the 8x10's, so rub-off was no worry. My
choice would have been Enhanced Matte, but they choose the Smooth Pearl.
Ilford rep tells me 35 years on Smooth Pearl under glass. Times are a
changin', but I still like to get my hands "wet".

Chris
www.zoeicaimages.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Beck Photography, Chicago" Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Weddings


> "I just printed all my 8x10 B&W's from a recent wedding on my 2200. Client
> loved them."
>
>  . . . and that was with matte paper/ink?  What about the rub-off factor?
That is a big factor if my clients are expecting digital prints to look and
behave like traditional prints.

>
> Roger
>
> Roger Beck Photography, Chicago
> 312-666-8216
>
> roger@...
> www.rogerbeck.com

>  . . . and that was with matte paper/ink?  What about the 
> rub-off factor?  That is a big factor if my clients are 
> expecting digital prints to look and behave like traditional prints.

Not to throw a wet blanket on this or anything, but that's my problem
too.  My clients expect good quality and something that's pretty
waterproof.  No digital B&W prints meet that criteria for me as of yet,
at least with the ease and cost of traditional chemical prints.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

Hi,
I'm just a lurker on this list, and It's clear to me that I'm a neophyte and can learn a lot of valuable things by just sitting back an listening. But, even though I have a feeling I'm about to commit a sin, I have to ask, does anyone have thoughts on printing B&W with dye sub?  It takes some tweaking, but I've gotten what I consider to be some really nice prints from my Olympus P-400.  There's clearly a size issue (you mean size really *does* matter?!), but I'd love to hear other folks' thoughs and opinions.  Thanks. --- Tim


Tim Hammond 
BTH Photography 
e-mail: tim@... 
Web site: http://www.bthphoto.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i have been noticing that with my setup the same
transfer curve will not work with all images in the
same way. ie in some images the shadows need the
boosts given by the tranfer curve to keep them from
going flat. in other images, the transfer curve tends
to block up the shadows. 

prints from scans made on my polaroid 35mm scanner
look much better with the transfer curve applied.
scans from either a microtek flatbed or epson 1680
flatbed tend to look better without the transfer curve
applied. i adjust scans from both roughly the same
way. is it the scanner making a difference? for what
it is worth, i tend to leave my images as untagged rgb
or untagged grayscale files. 

as i understand it, the transfer curve is meant to
match the printer output to what is seen on the screen
because the printer is, more or less, seeing the same
K values differently than the screen. 

while i will probably create several different tansfer
curves that work better than the one i have now, it
would be nice to figure out why the transfer curve i
am using now doesn't seem to be working consistently
between images. 

thanks for any thoughts. 
michael meyer

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On 4/10/03 6:21 AM, "Timothy Hammond" <bthphoto@...> wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm just a lurker on this list, and It's clear to me that I'm a neophyte and
> can learn a lot of valuable things by just sitting back an listening. But,
> even though I have a feeling I'm about to commit a sin, I have to ask, does
> anyone have thoughts on printing B&W with dye sub?  It takes some tweaking,
> but I've gotten what I consider to be some really nice prints from my Olympus
> P-400.  There's clearly a size issue (you mean size really *does* matter?!),
> but I'd love to hear other folks' thoughs and opinions.  Thanks. --- Tim

There is no sin in getting prints that you like.  The main issues on this
list for BW prints are:

1. Neutrality--can you get a neutral gray scale without crossovers--this is
less of a problem with quad ink sets...or all gray inks than without color
inks--that's why people tend to favor quads

2. Longevity--pure pigments will last much longer than dyes--do you know
what your dye sub prints are rated for?

3. Metamerism--do the different inks that are used to make up your print
react differently to different types of lighting.  For instance when you
take a print from day light to incandescent light is there a sudden shift in
a part of the spectrum causing you to loose neutrality.

4. Dither--can you see dots particularly in the highlights or at points
where various inks kick in and out--my guess is that this would not be a
problem for dye sub because it is pretty close to pure contone printing.

Robert

Tim, how can you live with only one paper surface, and the small size?
What's the point? A 1280 printer can do 
13x44 inch prints and costs less than the severely limited Olympus. Why
would anyone want to be so restricted?

Curious







Timothy Hammond wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> I'm just a lurker on this list, and It's clear to me that I'm a neophyte and can learn a lot of valuable things by just sitting back an listening. But, even though I have a feeling I'm about to commit a sin, I have to ask, does anyone have thoughts on printing B&W with dye sub?  It takes some tweaking, but I've gotten what I consider to be some really nice prints from my Olympus P-400.  There's clearly a size issue (you mean size really *does* matter?!), but I'd love to hear other folks' thoughs and opinions.  Thanks. --- Tim
> 
> Tim Hammond
> BTH Photography
> e-mail: tim@...
> Web site: http://www.bthphoto.com
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jerry,

There are many, many photographers that find no need to print larger than
8x10 or on one side of the paper.  While I do dapple in printing larger with
my large negs I generally find these photos much less satisfying than a 5x7
or 8x10 that I can hold in my hand...I just like that intimate connection
with the work.  

I think the deeper issues here is not size...or how many surfaces that he
can print on, but whether the quality of the print and its longevity meets
his needs...sounds like it might...at which point there may not be any need
for him to go through the extensive expense and learning curve of switching
technologies.

Robert

On 4/10/03 9:15 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Tim, how can you live with only one paper surface, and the small size?
> What's the point? A 1280 printer can do
> 13x44 inch prints and costs less than the severely limited Olympus. Why
> would anyone want to be so restricted?
> 
> Curious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timothy Hammond wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> I'm just a lurker on this list, and It's clear to me that I'm a neophyte and
>> can learn a lot of valuable things by just sitting back an listening. But,
>> even though I have a feeling I'm about to commit a sin, I have to ask, does
>> anyone have thoughts on printing B&W with dye sub?  It takes some tweaking,
>> but I've gotten what I consider to be some really nice prints from my Olympus
>> P-400.  There's clearly a size issue (you mean size really *does* matter?!),
>> but I'd love to hear other folks' thoughs and opinions.  Thanks. --- Tim
>> 
>> Tim Hammond
>> BTH Photography
>> e-mail: tim@...
>> Web site: http://www.bthphoto.com
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>> page.
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Hammond 
<bthphoto@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I'm just a lurker on this list, and It's clear to me that I'm a 
neophyte and can learn a lot of valuable things by just sitting back 
an listening. But, even though I have a feeling I'm about to commit a 
sin, I have to ask, does anyone have thoughts on printing B&W with 
dye sub?  It takes some tweaking, but I've gotten what I consider to 
be some really nice prints from my Olympus P-400.  There's clearly a 
size issue (you mean size really *does* matter?!), but I'd love to 
hear other folks' thoughs and opinions.  Thanks. --- Tim
> 
> 
> Tim Hammond 
> BTH Photography 
> e-mail: tim@b... 
> Web site: http://www.bthphoto.com
> 
Tim,
<clip>

The hope is that this forum will become a place where all of the 
current and future techniques for making digital B&W prints will be 
discussed, evaluated, disseminated, compared, critiqued, reviewed, 
debated and refined in a dynamic exchange of ideas and information.
As time goes by the forum will become an archive of invaluable 
information on what has been tried, what works, what does not work, 
what problems were faced, and, most importantly, how those problems 
were overcome and how success was achieved.

There is a wealth of knowledge out there. There are many people 
making stunningly beautiful B&W prints using their computers. You are 
invited to participate and share your knowledge. There are many out 
there who want to know how to make digital B&W prints. Please ask. 
That's a primary reason the forum is here.

<clip>

The above text is taken directly from Martin Wesley's original
post #1 to this forum. We are all pioneers in a way and while some 
are looking for "THE" answer others are looking to explore
the 
possibilities and push the envelope to discover what's best for
them. You don't have to read very far to find out that there is a
very
wide range of interest, talent and experience represented on this 
list. Most people on the list are using an Inkjet printer with 
grayscale inks. Most are trying to match the look of air dried silver 
gelatin black & white from a wet darkroom.

Personally, I think this is a new process and we should be exploiting 
the strengths of the media rather than trying to make it look like 
something it isn't. We have come a long way and many people are 
happily cranking out Art. Some are still searching for the Holly 
Grail. In any event, we are interested any new methods or means for 
producing elegant images in gray scale from a computer file. If you 
have a Dye-Sub and you have figured out a way to make grayscale 
images with it that please you, how can that be a Sin? If you show 
them around and others are impressed you might find a following. If 
they show promise, maybe someone will start making grayscale dye-sub 
tapes. 

If you haven't seen a grayscale inkjet print from a group member,
I would suggest that you trade with someone so you can compare and 
see for yourself how your process measures up. As far as being a 
neophyte, just remember that Wilber Wright wasn't a Pilot until
his first flight.

Go for it and share your experience.

Jerome

http://www.jeromehawkins.com/