--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst Dinkla"
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> Steve, you wrote:
>
> > > > Hmmm... I'm confused, don't know Profile Prism at all. Its
> a
> > > color
> > > > profiling app right? You're suggesting he make that capable
> of
> > > > generating greyscale ICCs like the new Cone system, and
> then
> > > using
> > > > them in Qimage? Sounds interesting!
> > > >
> > > > Steve Karafyllakis
> > >
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > But is most likely not delivering what you want. So far even
> the
> > > cheaper Spectrometers (SpectroCam etc) can't measure beyond
> 1.7 D
> > > accurately and people involved in B&W printing get secondhand
> > > densitometers instead to measure their greyscales for curve
> > > control. I'm afraid scanners are even more limited on that
> > > aspect.
> > >
> > > The best thing for quad and hexatone printing with Qimage
> would
> > > be a port of Gimp-print (+ CUPS ?) to Windows. That gives
> better
> > > custom paper setting controls and curves. When greyscale
> profiles
> > > can be created they can be used in Qimage, till then
> greyscale
> > > curves can be applied in Gimp-print. Linux and OS X have an
> > > advantage now in B&W printing (if it has to be done cheap:-).
> > >
> > > Ernst
> >
> > I agree that tryimg to take it all the way to creating ICCs is
> a bit
> > of a leap; I'm looking for relatively easy additions to make
> Qimage
> > useful enough to more frequently take advantage of its
> remarkable
> > interpolation and sharpening abilities.
> >
> > So far I have on my list-
> >
> > A) full .psd layered file compatibility
> >
> > B) Setting up Profile Prism to generate greyscale ICCs which we
> > could then use in Qimage
> >
> > C)Ability to load Photoshop .acv curves in the curves dialogue
> box;
> > that would allow partitioned RGB workflow without having to
> flatten
> > and save a copy.
> >
> > d) The ability to save an interpolated/ sharpened image to use
> with
> > other workflows/RIPS; To me this alone would justify the price-
> this
> > is much faster and more effective than that over-rated piece of
> > *##*## Genuine Fractals.
> >
> > I have to confess at this point that I don't know the program
> well
> > enough to know if there's some not too obvious way to already
> do
> > some of these things, such as saving a processed image. If
> anyone
> > does know it well enough, please jump in.
> >
> > Any further ideas?
>
> Possible already:
> Qimage could be used with quad or hexatone RGB curves that
> already exist for PS or Gimp-print use (there may be more than
> that meanwhile, so much is happening already). The curves have to
> be converted if the curve tool is different between those
> applications.
Well it's possible indirectly, by saving a comapatible file format
(layered .tif seems to work) with a curves layer, and printing
through Qimage. It would work much better if you could simply load
your curve of choice in the curves dialogue, without having to save
it first. As you say, a lot is happening; do I want the nuisance and
overhead of saving a new version for several different workflows?
And let's face it- the curves box in Qimage is a joke; There's no
way you could make precise adjustments, so even improving that alone
would be a usefull upgrade.
> MIS www.inksupply.com
> have several in their download section.
>
> That will deliver similar quality to what Photoshop does: Epson
> driver paper settings + resolution + and in PS the curves to get
> the grey inks in the CMYK/CcMmYK inklines in line with one
> another. Qimage can of course add its nesting and imposition
> features etc
> but I'm not sure what the Interpolation routines will do on B&W,
> think that will be trial and error time. On the other hand it
> might need a special interpolation and it is more likely to
> appear in Qimage than in another application ;-)
>
> Next step:
> What some people already do and what isn't so widely known on the
> B&W list is that after the individual RGB curves are applied a
> general stepwedge is printed from 0-100 % and the steps measured
> with a densitometer, measurements converted to PS for the master
> curve and by that the unevenness in the greyscale caused by the
> rough individual RGB curves + the inconsistency of the printer +
> the
> points where the separate grey inks overlap are compensated to
> bring it in one line. More or less a linearisation on top instead
> of a linearisation at the bottom as found in RIP software. It
> would be nice if a tool was added to Qimage that would allow the
> conversion of densitometer data to the master curve or a
> conversion from an Excel files that contain that data. AFAIK
> Excel is used now for the PS curves. Maybe 17 nodes in the curve
> tool of Qimage could be upgraded to more if that helps in
> refining the tone corrections, don't know whether that is
> necessary.
>
> Another step:
> The same people that are using densitometers seem to use Doctor
> Pro
Where do I find Doctor Pro? is it stand-alone or part of a CM
package?
in PhotoShop to convert PS curves to RGB ICC printer
> profiles,
> possibly CMYK printer profiles. It is a profile editor using the
> colour engine + tools of Photoshop and the action feature.
> Profile Prism doesn't have an editor as far as I can see on the
> site. I don't know whether an addition to Profile Prism to make
> that possible is better than a standalone program that converts
> densitometer readings directly into an ICC profile for
> linearisation or through a curves stage. The last would be nicer
> as it could incorporate the greyscale "separation" curves as well
> in the profile, those curves can't be made with an instrument but
> are the result of trial and error work. The "greyscale" profiles
> don't need the extra bagage of colour info.
>
> Yet another step:
> This workflow still relies on the Epson (Canon is another
> candidate) driver. That driver is RGB based, has usually limited
> paper settings and doesn't allow ink limitation and/or
> linearisation of the individual CMYK channels, custom paper
> settings can't be added and after 2 to 3 years the driver updates
> for new Window OSses are not appearing anymore. As often older
> printers are converted to B&W use this can be a problem.
> Linearisation of the CMYK channels isn't that important in B&W
> printing if a general linearisation on top is possible. I would
> be nice however to get more control of the printer driver in all
> aspects mentioned here. That's what is done in RIP's (Wasatch
> etc). Too big a task to undertake for the many models available
> and appearing + the Windows changes along the road.
This is the biggest problem here: what we realy need is a major job,
and way beyond the scope of this exersise. Let's keep in mind that
Qimage is small, cheap, (and we'd like to keep it that way) and does
a couple things well: it has image imposition abilities that PS
doesn't have, it has more sophisticated interpolation routines, and
good resizing-on-the-fly. My interest here is to add the kind of
functionality that makes its strong points usefull to us. For
instance, setting it up as a Photoshop plugin-that would give us all
of its functionality with less hassle swithching over?
>>The only
> option that may be possible is a port of Gimp-print parts etc to
> Windows.
Gimp-Print in Windows I'm interested in only if they fix it so it no
longer screws up my 7500 every time I try to use it. When I tried it
with Linux I had to go through 1/2 hour of self-diagnostics,
uplugging, printing test patterns, etc. to get it to work properly
in Windows again. A pox on that!
>that is done on that port now seems to progress slowly.
> On the other hand there are already B&W adaptions of Gimp-print,
> CUPS running on Linux and OS X so part of the work mentioned
> above is already done on the B&W aspect.
> Qimage with Gimp-print as a driver comes very near to a RIP in
> almost any aspect but its bias to RGB profiling. There's a trend
> in RIPs to add RGB profiling on top of CMYK profiling so whether
> this is con or a pro has to be seen. That it could have B&W
> greyscale management on top would make it very attractive.
>
> Much of what I've written is common knowledge on the B&W list and
> will be familiar to you but not for other readers (if there are
> any).
>
> Implanting the ideas is the hard work and I can't be of much help
> then so writing this gives me more a feeling of guilt than of
> satisfaction.
>
> Ernst
OK, so since I have the opportunity I'll try implanting the ideas &
we'll see where it leads. And as for the guilt... well, let's keep
religion out of it, yes?
Steve K