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IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-19 by Carl Schofield

Just started working on IJC profiles for Ilford Smooth Pearl using the 
Epson 2200 with OEM/UC inks (Photo Black).  Tones are fine but there is 
severe bronzing that appears primarily between steps 15-20 (56-76% on a 
step-wedge) when the print is viewed at an angle.  The upper and lower 
sections of the step wedge show no bronzing.  This is with a 50/50 
blend of a cool and warm profile.  It appears that the light black ink 
might be the culprit causing the bronzing.  I'm using only black and 
light black for the warm profile and the same plus light cyan and light 
magenta for the cool profile.  Any suggestions for minimizing the 
bronzing would be appreciated.

Re: IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-19 by Antonis Ricos

Carl,

I haven't played with this combo at all - but I have seen prints with similar 
Epson papers that bronzed and I simply gave them a coat of good ol' Krylon 
which made it go away. I realize this is less than ideal for all sorts of reasons 
but I haven't  profiled this to know of a sure fix.

 Perhaps a different mix of black and gray?... (more PK, less gray). I am 
guessing that the gray loads the paper too much when it  hits a peak in the 
mids, while the black works fine even at 100%. Something to consider...


Antonis  



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Just started working on IJC profiles for Ilford Smooth Pearl using the 
> Epson 2200 with OEM/UC inks (Photo Black).  Tones are fine but there is 
> severe bronzing that appears primarily between steps 15-20 (56-76% on a 
> step-wedge) when the print is viewed at an angle.  The upper and lower 
> sections of the step wedge show no bronzing.  This is with a 50/50 
> blend of a cool and warm profile.  It appears that the light black ink 
> might be the culprit causing the bronzing.  I'm using only black and 
> light black for the warm profile and the same plus light cyan and light 
> magenta for the cool profile.  Any suggestions for minimizing the 
> bronzing would be appreciated.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-20 by Carl Schofield

Thanks Antonis.  A couple of coats of Krylon does reduce the bronzing,  
but it does not completely eliminate it and I don't particularly care  
for the surface appearance.  I do like the higher dmax but can't get  
past the bronzing problems with the UC inks on RC papers so I'll  
sacrifice a little dmax for higher overall quality with the matte  
papers.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Saturday, April 19, 2003, at 02:38  PM, Antonis Ricos wrote:

> Carl,
>
> I haven't played with this combo at all - but I have seen prints with  
> similar
> Epson papers that bronzed and I simply gave them a coat of good ol'  
> Krylon
> which made it go away. I realize this is less than ideal for all sorts  
> of reasons
> but I haven't  profiled this to know of a sure fix.
>
>  Perhaps a different mix of black and gray?... (more PK, less gray). I  
> am
> guessing that the gray loads the paper too much when it  hits a peak  
> in the
> mids, while the black works fine even at 100%. Something to consider...
>
>
> Antonis
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@m...> wrote:
>> Just started working on IJC profiles for Ilford Smooth Pearl using the
>> Epson 2200 with OEM/UC inks (Photo Black).  Tones are fine but there  
>> is
>> severe bronzing that appears primarily between steps 15-20 (56-76% on  
>> a
>> step-wedge) when the print is viewed at an angle.  The upper and lower
>> sections of the step wedge show no bronzing.  This is with a 50/50
>> blend of a cool and warm profile.  It appears that the light black ink
>> might be the culprit causing the bronzing.  I'm using only black and
>> light black for the warm profile and the same plus light cyan and  
>> light
>> magenta for the cool profile.  Any suggestions for minimizing the
>> bronzing would be appreciated.
>
>
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-20 by Robert Morrison

Carl,

Have you tried the epson pro glossy with the ultrachromes...much more like
an air dried silver print than the Ilford. They are the best BW RC style
prints that I've seen so far...can't wait to try it with the new Ultratones.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 4/20/03 1:03 PM, "Carl Schofield" <scho@...> wrote:

> Thanks Antonis.  A couple of coats of Krylon does reduce the bronzing,
> but it does not completely eliminate it and I don't particularly care
> for the surface appearance.  I do like the higher dmax but can't get
> past the bronzing problems with the UC inks on RC papers so I'll
> sacrifice a little dmax for higher overall quality with the matte
> papers.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Saturday, April 19, 2003, at 02:38  PM, Antonis Ricos wrote:
> 
>> Carl,
>> 
>> I haven't played with this combo at all - but I have seen prints with
>> similar
>> Epson papers that bronzed and I simply gave them a coat of good ol'
>> Krylon
>> which made it go away. I realize this is less than ideal for all sorts
>> of reasons
>> but I haven't  profiled this to know of a sure fix.
>> 
>>  Perhaps a different mix of black and gray?... (more PK, less gray). I
>> am
>> guessing that the gray loads the paper too much when it  hits a peak
>> in the
>> mids, while the black works fine even at 100%. Something to consider...
>> 
>> 
>> Antonis
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
>> <scho@m...> wrote:
>>> Just started working on IJC profiles for Ilford Smooth Pearl using the
>>> Epson 2200 with OEM/UC inks (Photo Black).  Tones are fine but there
>>> is
>>> severe bronzing that appears primarily between steps 15-20 (56-76% on
>>> a
>>> step-wedge) when the print is viewed at an angle.  The upper and lower
>>> sections of the step wedge show no bronzing.  This is with a 50/50
>>> blend of a cool and warm profile.  It appears that the light black ink
>>> might be the culprit causing the bronzing.  I'm using only black and
>>> light black for the warm profile and the same plus light cyan and
>>> light
>>> magenta for the cool profile.  Any suggestions for minimizing the
>>> bronzing would be appreciated.
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> ---------------------~-->
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>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ~->
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
>> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-21 by Carl Schofield

On Sunday, April 20, 2003, at 07:53  PM, Robert Morrison wrote:

> Carl,
>
> Have you tried the epson pro glossy with the ultrachromes...much more 
> like
> an air dried silver print than the Ilford. They are the best BW RC 
> style
> prints that I've seen so far...can't wait to try it with the new 
> Ultratones.
>
> Robert

Robert,

Thanks for the tip.  I haven't tried the pro glossy yet, but have some 
on order from Atlex.  Any info on when Oriental is supposed to release 
their new fiber based ink jet paper?

Carl

Re: [Digital BW] Re: IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-21 by Robert Morrison

On 4/20/03 5:05 PM, "Carl Schofield" <scho@...> wrote:

> Any info on when Oriental is supposed to release
> their new fiber based ink jet paper?
> 
No I haven't heard anything yet...but I'll put in another request for info.

Robert

Re: [Digital BW] Re: IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-21 by Robert Morrison

As Antonis mentioned previously earlier, I think that one key to getting
bronzing under control is careful attention to ink load...specifically how
much combined ink is hitting the paper at a given density.  While we have
seen effects of this in the matte papers (I'm specifically thinking of the
midtone mottling that Paul Roark and others have seen with Museo using the
Epson driver) I think the gloss papers may be even more critical in this
regard.  With Inkjet control we have more control of this; however, because
you are only using two gray inks with the Ultrachrome/2200 solution you may
not be able to get there for every paper.  I think with an additional gray
(in the Ultratones) there will be more potential with the gloss papers.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 4/20/03 1:03 PM, "Carl Schofield" <scho@...> wrote:

> Thanks Antonis.  A couple of coats of Krylon does reduce the bronzing,
> but it does not completely eliminate it and I don't particularly care
> for the surface appearance.  I do like the higher dmax but can't get
> past the bronzing problems with the UC inks on RC papers so I'll
> sacrifice a little dmax for higher overall quality with the matte
> papers.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Saturday, April 19, 2003, at 02:38  PM, Antonis Ricos wrote:
> 
>> Carl,
>> 
>> I haven't played with this combo at all - but I have seen prints with
>> similar
>> Epson papers that bronzed and I simply gave them a coat of good ol'
>> Krylon
>> which made it go away. I realize this is less than ideal for all sorts
>> of reasons
>> but I haven't  profiled this to know of a sure fix.
>> 
>>  Perhaps a different mix of black and gray?... (more PK, less gray). I
>> am
>> guessing that the gray loads the paper too much when it  hits a peak
>> in the
>> mids, while the black works fine even at 100%. Something to consider...
>> 
>> 
>> Antonis
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
>> <scho@m...> wrote:
>>> Just started working on IJC profiles for Ilford Smooth Pearl using the
>>> Epson 2200 with OEM/UC inks (Photo Black).  Tones are fine but there
>>> is
>>> severe bronzing that appears primarily between steps 15-20 (56-76% on
>>> a
>>> step-wedge) when the print is viewed at an angle.  The upper and lower
>>> sections of the step wedge show no bronzing.  This is with a 50/50
>>> blend of a cool and warm profile.  It appears that the light black ink
>>> might be the culprit causing the bronzing.  I'm using only black and
>>> light black for the warm profile and the same plus light cyan and
>>> light
>>> magenta for the cool profile.  Any suggestions for minimizing the
>>> bronzing would be appreciated.
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> ---------------------~-->
>> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty
>> Dollars for Trying!
>> http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/i5gGAA/ucIolB/TM
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ~->
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
>> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>> this same page.
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
>> keep them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>> header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
>> various resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

[Digital BW] Re: IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-22 by joshjamessmith

Hi Robert.

Is Epson Pro Glossy the same as Epson Premium photo glossy 
? 
Have you tried the ColorLife Photo Paper with the UltraTones ?

Would you be kind enough to supply the part number for the 
paper ?

I find epson naming conventions of paper really absurd and
very confusing.

Thanks Josh
> Carl,
> 
> Have you tried the epson pro glossy with the 
ultrachromes...much more like
> an air dried silver print than the Ilford. They are the best BW RC 
style
> prints that I've seen so far...can't wait to try it with the new 
Ultratones.
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-22 by Robert Morrison

On 4/22/03 2:29 AM, "joshjamessmith" <joshjamessmith@...> wrote:

> Hi Robert.
> 
> Is Epson Pro Glossy the same as Epson Premium photo glossy
> ? 

No, it is nothing like it.

> Have you tried the ColorLife Photo Paper with the UltraTones ?

No, but the Colorlife paper is made for dye inks so it doesn't seem that it
would offer an obvious advantage given that the Ultratones are 100% pigment.
 
> Would you be kind enough to supply the part number for the
> paper ?

These papers are identical:

Epson Professional Glossy S041456 (13" x 19") sheets

Epson Glossy Paper Photo Weight  S041388 (22" x 65' roll); S041389 (44" x
65' roll)


You can get the Epson Pro Glossy at Atlex:

http://www.atlex.com/Epson/paper/super_b_size.htm

 
> I find epson naming conventions of paper really absurd and
> very confusing.
> 
Yeap...its definitely not their strong point.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>> Carl,
>> 
>> Have you tried the epson pro glossy with the
> ultrachromes...much more like
>> an air dried silver print than the Ilford. They are the best BW RC
> style
>> prints that I've seen so far...can't wait to try it with the new
> Ultratones.
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

[Digital BW] Re: IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-24 by joshjamessmith

Thanks very much Robert. 
Unfortunately the UK doesn't seem to have the  smaller sheets
of  "Epson Professional Glossy S041456 (13" x 19") sheets"
However it does have the others.

Have you tried a semi matte or lustre paper  paper which is good
with Ultra Tones yet ?

Thanks very much for your advice.

Josh

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert 
Morrison <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 4/22/03 2:29 AM, "joshjamessmith" <joshjamessmith@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> > Hi Robert.
> > 
> > Is Epson Pro Glossy the same as Epson Premium photo 
glossy
> > ? 
> 
> No, it is nothing like it.
> 
> > Have you tried the ColorLife Photo Paper with the UltraTones 
?
> 
> No, but the Colorlife paper is made for dye inks so it doesn't 
seem that it
> would offer an obvious advantage given that the Ultratones are 
100% pigment.
>  
> > Would you be kind enough to supply the part number for the
> > paper ?
> 
> These papers are identical:
> 
> Epson Professional Glossy S041456 (13" x 19") sheets
> 
> Epson Glossy Paper Photo Weight  S041388 (22" x 65' roll); 
S041389 (44" x
> 65' roll)
> 
> 
> You can get the Epson Pro Glossy at Atlex:
> 
> http://www.atlex.com/Epson/paper/super_b_size.htm
> 
>  
> > I find epson naming conventions of paper really absurd and
> > very confusing.
> > 
> Yeap...its definitely not their strong point.
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> >> Carl,
> >> 
> >> Have you tried the epson pro glossy with the
> > ultrachromes...much more like
> >> an air dried silver print than the Ilford. They are the best BW 
RC
> > style
> >> prints that I've seen so far...can't wait to try it with the new
> > Ultratones.
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 
> > 
> >

[Digital BW] Re: IJC/Ilford Smooth Pearl Bronzing Problem

2003-04-25 by Carl Schofield

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert Morrison <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> As Antonis mentioned previously earlier, I think that one key to getting
> bronzing under control is careful attention to ink load...specifically how
> much combined ink is hitting the paper at a given density.  While we have
> seen effects of this in the matte papers (I'm specifically thinking of the
> midtone mottling that Paul Roark and others have seen with Museo using the
> Epson driver) I think the gloss papers may be even more critical in this
> regard.  With Inkjet control we have more control of this; however, because
> you are only using two gray inks with the Ultrachrome/2200 solution you may
> not be able to get there for every paper.  I think with an additional gray
> (in the Ultratones) there will be more potential with the gloss papers.
> 

Robert,
I tried the Epson Pro Glossy (EPG) paper and ran into the same bronzing poblem.  The EPG is almost identical in surface gloss and texture to the Pictorico Premium Photo Glossy paper except that the latter is a brighter white color.  The "bronzing" problem I'm having with both papers (and the other RC papers as well) manifests itself in the midtones as a metallic bronze color reflection when viewed at certain angles to a light source - almost like a hologram effect.  I tried lowering the curve for the light black ink (in the warm profile) and decreasing the light black ink limit, but these changes only moved the bronzing effect up the scale a few steps.  I think I'll wait for the Ultratones and give up trying with the UC inks on RC papers for now.
Carl

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