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2003-05-07 by Mitch Alland
For: Andrew Lee Given the offensive title Andrew Lee has given to his posting -- and don't tell me that he doesn't know what he's doing in using such an abbreviation since he doesn't abbreviate anything else -- I suggest that no one should respond to his posting. This is not an acceptable abbreviation for "Japanese". --Mitch/Paris
2003-05-07 by Duncan Staples
Climb off your horse and give it a break. If a Japanese person has a problem with the post, which I haven't seen any evidence of to date, they have every right to complain. I can hardly see how the reference would offend someone that is not of Japanese descent. Now if you are somehow of Japanese descent I apologize and give you the floor, if not get a life, there are more important things to ruffle your feathers about. Duncan --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland <malland@x> wrote: > For: Andrew Lee > > Given the offensive title Andrew Lee has given to his posting -- and > don't tell me that he doesn't know what he's doing in using such an > abbreviation since he doesn't abbreviate anything else -- I suggest > that no one should respond to his posting. This is not an acceptable
> abbreviation for "Japanese". > > --Mitch/Paris
2003-05-07 by Andy Biggs
If I am not mistaken, Rick Murai would be in that category.............
-----Original Message----- From: Duncan Staples [mailto:gdstaples@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 5:48 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Problem: Jap (sic!) carts won't work Climb off your horse and give it a break. If a Japanese person has a problem with the post, which I haven't seen any evidence of to date, they have every right to complain. I can hardly see how the reference would offend someone that is not of Japanese descent. Now if you are somehow of Japanese descent I apologize and give you the floor, if not get a life, there are more important things to ruffle your feathers about. Duncan --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland <malland@x> wrote: > For: Andrew Lee > > Given the offensive title Andrew Lee has given to his posting -- and > don't tell me that he doesn't know what he's doing in using such an > abbreviation since he doesn't abbreviate anything else -- I suggest > that no one should respond to his posting. This is not an acceptable > abbreviation for "Japanese". > > --Mitch/Paris Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - Include your full name with your message. - Include the address of your website, if you have one. - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; - Complete your Yahoo profile. - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003
2003-05-08 by Duncan Staples
Andy: I'm not sure but Rick handled his post with intellect and made his point known without accusing anyone of intentionally making derogatory statements - he gave the poster the benefit of the doubt and suggested an alternative abbreviation for future reference. Handled with class and restraint. Duncan --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Biggs" <andy@a...> wrote: > If I am not mistaken, Rick Murai would be in that category............. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Duncan Staples [mailto:gdstaples@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 5:48 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Problem: Jap (sic!) carts won't work > > > Climb off your horse and give it a break. > > If a Japanese person has a problem with the post, which I haven't > seen any evidence of to date, they have every right to complain. I > can hardly see how the reference would offend someone that is not of > Japanese descent. Now if you are somehow of Japanese descent I > apologize and give you the floor, if not get a life, there are more > important things to ruffle your feathers about. > > Duncan > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland > <malland@x> wrote: > > For: Andrew Lee > > > > Given the offensive title Andrew Lee has given to his posting -- > and > > don't tell me that he doesn't know what he's doing in using such an > > abbreviation since he doesn't abbreviate anything else -- I suggest > > that no one should respond to his posting. This is not an > acceptable > > abbreviation for "Japanese". > > > > --Mitch/Paris > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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2003-05-08 by Andy Biggs
I completely agree.
-----Original Message----- From: Duncan Staples [mailto:gdstaples@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:21 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Problem: Jap (sic!) carts won't work Andy: I'm not sure but Rick handled his post with intellect and made his point known without accusing anyone of intentionally making derogatory statements - he gave the poster the benefit of the doubt and suggested an alternative abbreviation for future reference. Handled with class and restraint. Duncan --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Biggs" <andy@a...> wrote: > If I am not mistaken, Rick Murai would be in that category............. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Duncan Staples [mailto:gdstaples@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 5:48 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Problem: Jap (sic!) carts won't work > > > Climb off your horse and give it a break. > > If a Japanese person has a problem with the post, which I haven't > seen any evidence of to date, they have every right to complain. I > can hardly see how the reference would offend someone that is not of > Japanese descent. Now if you are somehow of Japanese descent I > apologize and give you the floor, if not get a life, there are more > important things to ruffle your feathers about. > > Duncan > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland > <malland@x> wrote: > > For: Andrew Lee > > > > Given the offensive title Andrew Lee has given to his posting -- > and > > don't tell me that he doesn't know what he's doing in using such an > > abbreviation since he doesn't abbreviate anything else -- I suggest > > that no one should respond to his posting. This is not an > acceptable > > abbreviation for "Japanese". > > > > --Mitch/Paris > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - Include your full name with your message. - Include the address of your website, if you have one. - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; - Complete your Yahoo profile. - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003
2003-05-08 by Steven Schaefer
I am not of Japanese descent and I find it very offensive. If you can't see how it is offensive, I feel sorry for you. Being courteous and sensitive to other people's feeling is important and making racist comments is something to ruffle your feathers about. I would suggest you climb off your horse and broaden your mind. Steve Schaefer Andy Biggs wrote:
> > If I am not mistaken, Rick Murai would be in that category............. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Duncan Staples [mailto:gdstaples@...] > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 5:48 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Problem: Jap (sic!) carts won't work > > Climb off your horse and give it a break. > > If a Japanese person has a problem with the post, which I haven't > seen any evidence of to date, they have every right to complain. I > can hardly see how the reference would offend someone that is not of > Japanese descent. Now if you are somehow of Japanese descent I > apologize and give you the floor, if not get a life, there are more > important things to ruffle your feathers about. > > Duncan > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland > <malland@x> wrote: > > For: Andrew Lee > > > > Given the offensive title Andrew Lee has given to his posting -- > and > > don't tell me that he doesn't know what he's doing in using such an > > abbreviation since he doesn't abbreviate anything else -- I suggest > > that no one should respond to his posting. This is not an > acceptable > > abbreviation for "Japanese". > > > > --Mitch/Paris > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various > resources on the homepage. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
2003-05-08 by alnchiem
Dear all, I've just woken up on this side of the globe a little bemused by the collateral comments. Firstly, no, the abbreviation Jap. was never meant to be offensive, and I do get along very well with my Japanese neighbour. Secondly, I believe I spelt out the term 'Japanese' in the body of the message, which should suggest I was using the term Jap. as a abbreviation rather than anything else. In our country, we're just not so careful in ensuring our comments are not rude, so I do apologize to anyone who was offended. regards, Andrew --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Biggs" <andy@a...> wrote: > If I am not mistaken, Rick Murai would be in that category............. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Duncan Staples [mailto:gdstaples@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 5:48 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Problem: Jap (sic!) carts won't work > > > Climb off your horse and give it a break. > > If a Japanese person has a problem with the post, which I haven't > seen any evidence of to date, they have every right to complain. I > can hardly see how the reference would offend someone that is not of > Japanese descent. Now if you are somehow of Japanese descent I > apologize and give you the floor, if not get a life, there are more > important things to ruffle your feathers about. > > Duncan > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland > <malland@x> wrote: > > For: Andrew Lee > > > > Given the offensive title Andrew Lee has given to his posting -- > and > > don't tell me that he doesn't know what he's doing in using such an > > abbreviation since he doesn't abbreviate anything else -- I suggest > > that no one should respond to his posting. This is not an > acceptable > > abbreviation for "Japanese". > > > > --Mitch/Paris > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003
2003-05-08 by Andy Biggs
Steve- You are reading my email incorrectly. I should have been clearer. I am saying that Rick is from Japanese decent, and I was pointing out that *he* was offended. As so was I. Just my $.02
-----Original Message----- From: Steven Schaefer [mailto:stevenr@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:37 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Problem: Jap (sic!) carts won't work I am not of Japanese descent and I find it very offensive. If you can't see how it is offensive, I feel sorry for you. Being courteous and sensitive to other people's feeling is important and making racist comments is something to ruffle your feathers about. I would suggest you climb off your horse and broaden your mind. Steve Schaefer Andy Biggs wrote: > > If I am not mistaken, Rick Murai would be in that > category............. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Duncan Staples [mailto:gdstaples@...] > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 5:48 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Problem: Jap (sic!) carts won't work > > Climb off your horse and give it a break. > > If a Japanese person has a problem with the post, which I haven't seen > any evidence of to date, they have every right to complain. I can > hardly see how the reference would offend someone that is not of > Japanese descent. Now if you are somehow of Japanese descent I > apologize and give you the floor, if not get a life, there are more > important things to ruffle your feathers about. > > Duncan > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland > <malland@x> wrote: > > For: Andrew Lee > > > > Given the offensive title Andrew Lee has given to his posting -- > and > > don't tell me that he doesn't know what he's doing in using such an > > abbreviation since he doesn't abbreviate anything else -- I suggest > > that no one should respond to his posting. This is not an > acceptable > > abbreviation for "Japanese". > > > > --Mitch/Paris > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting > this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject > header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various > resources on the homepage. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting > this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - Include your full name with your message. - Include the address of your website, if you have one. - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; - Complete your Yahoo profile. - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003
2003-05-08 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service
Andy Biggs wrote: >Steve- > >You are reading my email incorrectly. I should have been clearer. I am >saying that Rick is from Japanese decent, and I was pointing out that *he* >was offended. As so was I. > > > > Not only were you, I was as well... I was actually speechless. In fact, as an American of VERY mixed heritage, I was appalled and still remain so at the lack of awareness by some here of the pejorative history the term carries with it.. As Rick notes, it was used as a racial insult at a time when America was taking people from their homes and livelihoods, putting her own citizens in concentration camps (internment camps), taking away land and property that was NEVER returned, and only because their land of origin happened to be Japan. Even the US Supreme Court (in the Korematsu case) said that Japanese Americans were so different as to merit differential treatment of this kind.. (After the war they reversed themselves, and the US has paid some few elderly survivors of the camps reparations of a sort.) Germans and Italians were not similarly treated, but many here would certainly be sensitive to emotionally laden terms being used to describe people of those ethnicities.. As for friends, I have never accepted friends from Japan using the term "Gaijin" either, as it has much of the same emotional burden.. Please don't use that term again.. Keith "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo Publications), at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/ "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together guys" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2003-05-08 by flyfishingusa2002
Keith, You obviously don't know anyone who was a POW in the hands (and feet) of the JAPS during the last war. You clearly don't know how the female sex is still treated in Japan to this day. Know I see someone from France, remember the country that endorsed the brutal rule of Saddam in Iraq, telling the rest of the world how to behave. Racial intolerance is largly bought about by the Groups themselves and their behavour. True this is a International Group who communicates in the common language of English and we should try to keep to the Digital Black and White print, but there has been many other off topic threads that only die when the likes of you and I don't respond to them any more. Sierra Gold --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@p...> wrote: > > > Andy Biggs wrote: > > >Steve- > > > >You are reading my email incorrectly. I should have been clearer. I am > >saying that Rick is from Japanese decent, and I was pointing out that *he* > >was offended. As so was I. > > > > > > > > > Not only were you, I was as well... I was actually speechless. > > In fact, as an American of VERY mixed heritage, I was appalled and > still remain so at the lack of awareness by some here of the pejorative > history the term carries with it.. As Rick notes, it was used as a > racial insult at a time when America was taking people from their homes > and livelihoods, putting her own citizens in concentration camps > (internment camps), taking away land and property that was NEVER > returned, and only because their land of origin happened to be Japan. > Even the US Supreme Court (in the Korematsu case) said that Japanese > Americans were so different as to merit differential treatment of this > kind.. (After the war they reversed themselves, and the US has paid > some few elderly survivors of the camps reparations of a sort.) Germans > and Italians were not similarly treated, but many here would certainly > be sensitive to emotionally laden terms being used to describe people of > those ethnicities.. > > As for friends, I have never accepted friends from Japan using the term > "Gaijin" either, as it has much of the same emotional burden.. > > Please don't use that term again.. > Keith > > > > "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer > User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo > Publications), at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/ > > "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
> guys" > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]