Digital BW, The Print

I plunged into digital B&W printing about two months ago and have since 
discovered that something I thought was simple and straight forward is 
extremely complex.  I haven't been very successful in finding a good 
source of information were I can learn how the various phenomena are 
manifested (colour casts, metamerism, shifts, bronzing, etc.) or what 
controls them.  I find the tens of different options (quadtones, 
hextones, septtones, RIPs, printer drivers, separate drivers, profiling 
equipment, whatnot) very confusing and I don't know how to choose 
between them... or to determine what is right for me and the budget 
that I willing to devote to this.

Is there such a source?  Online or in a book?  I can't access the Files 
section of the Yahoo! groups page, because it refuses to acknowledge 
that I subscribe to this group -- despite having gone through the whole 
"verification of membership" process twice.

M.

Hello Martin,

>I plunged into digital B&W printing about two months ago and have
>since discovered that something I thought was simple and straight 
>forward is extremely complex.  I find the tens of different options 
>(quadtones, hextones, septtones, RIPs, printer drivers, separate 
>drivers, profiling equipment, whatnot) very confusing and I don't 
>know how to choose between them... or to determine what is right 
>for me and the budget that I willing to devote to this.

Not a stupid question at all.  I don't know of a single source of
information distilled down to these specific subjects, but this forum
is certainly a good place to learn.  Perhaps Martin Wesley the forum
manager can help with the user verification problem.

In the meantime, Black Only printing is a good neutral place to hang
your hat and make some nice prints and hone your Photoshop skills
while you figure out which system you'll ultimately use.  It is not
the final word in digi printing, but you'll learn a huge amount
without a committment to any particular expensive system and will
turn out some surprisingly nice prints.  There is information about 
BO printing on my web site.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Martin Howard 

> I find the tens of different options (quadtones, 
> hextones, septtones, RIPs, printer drivers, separate
> drivers, profiling equipment, whatnot) very confusing 
> and I don't know how to choose between them... or to 
> determine what is right for me and the budget 
> that I willing to devote to this.

I asked a similar question when I joined this group and the situation 
hasn't really changed since then.

As you noted above, there are DOZENS of different approaches to this 
problem and NONE of them have more than a tiny percentage of the 
overall user-base.  That alone should tell you something - if there 
was one method that worked well and consistently for most users who 
tried it then we'd see most people gravitating to it. 

The other problem is that no matter WHICH approach you take, you have 
to like being a tinkerer.  Almost all these methods are basically for 
geeks and nerds who enjoy doing profiling and running test strips and 
tweaking things and taking out heads and cleaning them and installing 
special software on their computers, etc, etc.

When it comes to black and white injket printing there is NO 
equivalent to the Toyota Camry or Honda Accord -  a consistent, 
reliable, turn-the-key-and-it-goes mass-market solution that appeals 
to a large base of users.   Instead it's more like collecting 1950's 
Italian or British sports cars -  a hobby for eccentrics who enjoy 
spending lots of time in the shop or under the hood, and talking with 
other hobbyists about arcane and esoteric topics.

Hello Martin,

We all start out as newbies at one time and that is our common 
ground which drives us to help others. I know the feeling of being 
overwhelmed by the terms and ideas, even though I have pursued 
photography as a hobby for 35 years. Only in the past year have I 
delved into digital imaging, and have gotten more satisfaction from 
it than all the years before. I settled down with my procedure that 
works for me, and that is what we all end up doing. I use a Nikon 
D5700 and an Epson 1280 printer with hextone inks. The company I get 
ink from is www.inksupply.com which is MIS ink company. On their web 
site is an abundance of information and maybe an overabundance of 
information depending on your level of interest. I also tried 
Clayton Jones Black only printing and was pleased with it also. That 
will get you a very good print right away and keep your interest up 
without becoming discouraged too easily.

Your friend in photography,

Johnny Eades



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Martin Howard 
<mvhoward@m...> wrote:
> 
> I plunged into digital B&W printing about two months ago and have 
since 
> discovered that something I thought was simple and straight 
forward is 
> extremely complex.  I haven't been very successful in finding a 
good 
> source of information were I can learn how the various phenomena 
are 
> manifested (colour casts, metamerism, shifts, bronzing, etc.) or 
what 
> controls them.  I find the tens of different options (quadtones, 
> hextones, septtones, RIPs, printer drivers, separate drivers, 
profiling 
> equipment, whatnot) very confusing and I don't know how to choose 
> between them... or to determine what is right for me and the 
budget 
> that I willing to devote to this.
> 
> Is there such a source?  Online or in a book?  I can't access the 
Files 
> section of the Yahoo! groups page, because it refuses to 
acknowledge 
> that I subscribe to this group -- despite having gone through the 
whole 

> "verification of membership" process twice.
> 
> M.

Almost all these methods are basically for 
> geeks and nerds who enjoy doing profiling and running test strips 
and 
> tweaking things and taking out heads and cleaning them and 
installing 
> special software on their computers, etc, etc.
> 
 
I hope that geeks and nerds was meant in a good way. I am also just 
getting started in B&W inkjet printing. So far I don't see how it is 
any different than darkroom work, as far as the tinkering aspect 
goes. I don't know of any darkroom printer who is not always looking 
for the perfect paper, film, developer combination. Maybe people who 
shoot nothing but slides are used to just taking what they get, but 
to me black and white work has always been more hands on. If that 
makes me a geek and a nerd, then at least I am in good company. :>)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jimj1946" 
<jimj1946@y...> wrote:
>   Almost all these methods are basically for 
> > geeks and nerds who enjoy doing profiling and running test strips 
> and 
> > tweaking things and taking out heads and cleaning them and 
> installing 
> > special software on their computers, etc, etc.
> > 
>  
> I hope that geeks and nerds was meant in a good way. I am also just 
> getting started in B&W inkjet printing. So far I don't see how it 
is 
> any different than darkroom work, as far as the 
> tinkering aspect goes. I don't know of any darkroom
> printer who is not always looking for the perfect paper,
> film, developer combination.

You must be young.  Nowadays very few people do their own wet 
darkroom work so those that do are in the "enthusiast" category.   
They do it because they LIKE the process, they ENJOY the 
experimenting and tinkering, etc.   That's why all the ones you know 
today seem to be avid tinkerers.

I've been doing wet darkroom since the mid-60's. In those days FOR 
MOST PEOPLE it was simply a means to an end - to make prints of our 
photos or to do it more cheaply than a pro lab.   I found papers and 
chemicals and processes that WORKED and stuck with them; I spent very 
little time tinkering, nor did most people I knew.  We weren't trying 
to be Ansel Adams; we were trying to make prints of our photos.

That's the point that digital B+W has yet to evolve to.   A standard, 
agreed-upon process and set of technologies that works for 90% of 
users so when a newbie comes here we can all say "here's how you get 
started"  and tell him the same basic thing.   Tinkering should 
always be an option for the advanced enthusiast, but it should not be 
REQUIRED to just get a decent, neutral, streak-free, print without 
blocked shadows or mid-tone texturing.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" 
<peter@s...> wrote:
> 
> You must be young.  Nowadays very few people do their own wet 
> darkroom work so those that do are in the "enthusiast" category.   
> They do it because they LIKE the process, they ENJOY the 
> experimenting and tinkering, etc.   That's why all the ones you 
know 
> today seem to be avid tinkerers.


Actually I have been doing wet darkroom work since the late 50's. 
And to me it has always been a joy and a learning experience. To 
tell you the truth, I have always cosidered myself more of a 
printer, than a photographer. In fact I would take in prints from my 
friends who didn't like that part of the process. Even before the 
internet, I would read everything I could find, on printing, both 
silver, and alternative processses. For the last few years, I have 
not had a darkroom avaialable to me. For me, inkjet printing is just 
one more tool, that I want to add to my knowledge base. If I 
expected a turn key operation, I would just talk my shots to the 
local one hour photo place and be done with it.

At 02:29 AM 5/15/03 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Martin Howard

><Snip>
>When it comes to black and white injket printing there is NO
>equivalent to the Toyota Camry or Honda Accord -  a consistent,
>reliable, turn-the-key-and-it-goes mass-market solution that appeals
>to a large base of users.   Instead it's more like collecting 1950's
>Italian or British sports cars -  a hobby for eccentrics who enjoy
>spending lots of time in the shop or under the hood, and talking with
>other hobbyists about arcane and esoteric topics.

Hey, Martin,

My first car was a Morgan 4-seater drophead coup, later an MGTD. Used an 
MGB and an old Alfa Spyder for day-to-day cars for years. Eventually 
started dropping American V8s into TR6s for fun at the stop lights...

Which printing system do you recommend for me?

David


David Jackson
First Year Experience Program
Tulane University

Voice: (504) 865-5264
Fax:    (504) 862-8455
Email: lagniap@...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jimj1946" 
<jimj1946@y...> wrote:

> Actually I have been doing wet darkroom work since the late 50's. 
> And to me it has always been a joy and a learning experience. To 
> tell you the truth, I have always cosidered myself more of a 
> printer, than a photographer.


EXACTLY!  There have always been SOME people like that - Ansel 
Adams, for instance.   That's why I used the vintage sports car 
analogy.   They don't own those cars for transportation.  If they 
did they'd buy a Camry.  They like to tinker.

The problem is that people like you (people who LIKE to tinker) are 
totally out of touch with the mainstream world of people who just 
want to get decent prints of their photos.   That's why newbies get 
scared naway from this field.

> If I expected a turn key operation, I would just talk my
> shots to the local one hour photo place and be done with it.

You have one hour photo places that do decent black and white prints 
from digital files?   They sure don't have any such thing around 
here.

At 04:39 PM 5/14/03 -0700, you wrote:

>I plunged into digital B&W printing about two months ago and have since
>discovered that something I thought was simple and straight forward is
>extremely complex.  I haven't been very successful in finding a good
>source of information were I can learn how the various phenomena are
>manifested (colour casts, metamerism, shifts, bronzing, etc.) or what
>controls them.  I find the tens of different options (quadtones,
>hextones, septtones, RIPs, printer drivers, separate drivers, profiling
>equipment, whatnot) very confusing and I don't know how to choose
>between them... or to determine what is right for me and the budget
>that I willing to devote to this.
>
>Is there such a source?  Online or in a book?  I can't access the Files
>section of the Yahoo! groups page, because it refuses to acknowledge
>that I subscribe to this group -- despite having gone through the whole
>"verification of membership" process twice.
>
>M.


The thing to do is eliminate all the variables you can. Everyone who posts 
to this list has different needs so has different problems and opinions 
about what is best.  Pick one paper and one ink set and put in some time on 
them.  What is your primary end-product?  If it is an ink jet print that 
looks just like a selenium-toned, air-dried glossy forget about it or 
forever be spinning your wheels.  If you want an outstanding  salon quality 
exhibition print with its own unique character go for either the piezo 
system which is turn-key,  or the Roark system which you can get the hang 
of quickly using the cook-book method.  In spite of the way it seems 
reading the BW list most people are not having difficulties making prints. 
The experimenters (bless their hearts) and just plain un-lucky are 
naturally going to generate the most mail.   There is no book - there can't 
be because everything changes too quickly.

My system is not state of the art but I'm a happy man: piezo, MIS-FS inks 
and Red River Polar Matte, paper.  I have a 980 printer and use the top-off 
refill system.  I have no (zero, zip) problems except occasional operator 
error. Were I to up-grade one notch I'd use a 2000 series printer and photo 
rag paper. I don't usually sell work so I have to keep costs down.

AZ



Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book.
http://www.panoramacamera.us

Hello Alan Zinn,

I read your reply and you mentioned the top off ink refill system. 
That piqued my interest. I have an Epson 1280 and refill my 
cartridges when I see any major banding. Could you explain the top 
off method for me? Now I just suck out all ink and foam and refill 
all chambers at once. 

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny Eades


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alan Zinn 
<AZinn@n...> wrote:
> At 04:39 PM 5/14/03 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >I plunged into digital B&W printing about two months ago and have 
since
> >discovered that something I thought was simple and straight 
forward is
> >extremely complex.  I haven't been very successful in finding a 
good
> >source of information were I can learn how the various phenomena 
are
> >manifested (colour casts, metamerism, shifts, bronzing, etc.) or 
what
> >controls them.  I find the tens of different options (quadtones,
> >hextones, septtones, RIPs, printer drivers, separate drivers, 
profiling
> >equipment, whatnot) very confusing and I don't know how to choose
> >between them... or to determine what is right for me and the 
budget
> >that I willing to devote to this.
> >
> >Is there such a source?  Online or in a book?  I can't access the 
Files
> >section of the Yahoo! groups page, because it refuses to 
acknowledge
> >that I subscribe to this group -- despite having gone through the 
whole
> >"verification of membership" process twice.
> >
> >M.
> 
> 
> The thing to do is eliminate all the variables you can. Everyone 
who posts 
> to this list has different needs so has different problems and 
opinions 
> about what is best.  Pick one paper and one ink set and put in 
some time on 
> them.  What is your primary end-product?  If it is an ink jet 
print that 
> looks just like a selenium-toned, air-dried glossy forget about it 
or 
> forever be spinning your wheels.  If you want an outstanding  
salon quality 
> exhibition print with its own unique character go for either the 
piezo 
> system which is turn-key,  or the Roark system which you can get 
the hang 
> of quickly using the cook-book method.  In spite of the way it 
seems 
> reading the BW list most people are not having difficulties making 
prints. 
> The experimenters (bless their hearts) and just plain un-lucky are 
> naturally going to generate the most mail.   There is no book - 
there can't 
> be because everything changes too quickly.
> 
> My system is not state of the art but I'm a happy man: piezo, MIS-
FS inks 
> and Red River Polar Matte, paper.  I have a 980 printer and use 
the top-off 
> refill system.  I have no (zero, zip) problems except occasional 
operator 
> error. Were I to up-grade one notch I'd use a 2000 series printer 
and photo 

> rag paper. I don't usually sell work so I have to keep costs down.
> 
> AZ
> 
> 
> 
> Build a Lookaround!
> The Lookaround Book.
> http://www.panoramacamera.us

At 06:22 PM 5/15/03 +0000, you wrote:


>Hello Alan Zinn,
>
>I read your reply and you mentioned the top off ink refill system.
>That piqued my interest. I have an Epson 1280 and refill my
>cartridges when I see any major banding. Could you explain the top
>off method for me? Now I just suck out all ink and foam and refill
>all chambers at once.
>
>Your friend in Photography,
>
>Johnny Eades
>



> > My system is not state of the art but I'm a happy man: piezo, MIS-
>FS inks
> > and Red River Polar Matte, paper.  I have a 980 printer and use
>the top-off
> > refill system.  I have no (zero, zip) problems except occasional
>operator
> > error. Were I to up-grade one notch I'd use a 2000 series printer
>and photo
> > rag paper. I don't usually sell work so I have to keep costs down.
> >
> > AZ
> >
> >
> >
> > Build a Lookaround!
> > The Lookaround Book.
> > http://www.panoramacamera.us

Johnny,

It's all on my web page below.  The more you mess with carts the more they 
get foam and air bubbles - that includes cleaning cycles I think.

AZ


Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book.
http://www.panoramacamera.us