Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Tom OConnell" <TomOC@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 7:46 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Very interesting article on evolution of
Digital Printing


> http://www.mediastreet.com/pdf/photo_tech.pdf
>
> From the May/June copy of Photo Techniques...a must read by
Mark
> Dubovoy.
>
> If you can get the hard copy, the article about Al Weber is
totally
> great...how and why he shunned Ansel Adams and other esoteric
> photographers...
>
> cheers,
>
> Tom O'Connell


Tom,

This PDF is an add for Mediastreet's Generations and Mark hasn't
been very accurate on the ink data.

I'm using the same ink but I have some reservations on
Generations being more fadeproof than Ultrachrome, Wilhelm's
testing has changed over the years (after the Epson dye ink
affair mainly) and I wonder how well Generations Black + Yellow +
Light Magenta will withstand the test now. Mediastreet had some
luck in having the first pigment ink with a good gamut tested
quite early by Wilhelm and just dye or small gamut pigment inks
as the competition then.

Quite soon after that Epson introduced the 9500 printer with the
Encapsulated Pigment inks called Archival inks, Their fade
resistance is a lot better than Generations. The gamut probably
less and they have some other problems. Mark writes that the
encapsulation breaks open on hitting the paper, I don't believe
it is the case and I have not seen that explanation anywhere
before (there is a dye ink developed now that will use that
method though, reactive dye ink in micro capsules, another
comapny).

After that Epson introduced Dura Brite pigment inks and the new
more fade proof dyes for the 1270/1290/10000 etc.
Dura Brite (not Bright) pigment inks are used in the Epson C
series printers and not in the 1270 as Mark writes, and the
orange plague problem was with the Epson 1270/1290/870 etc dye
inks and not with Dura Brite.

Ultrachrome (not Ultrabright as Mark writes) inks were the last
pigment inks introduced by Epson.



Could be that the rest of the article was written with a lot of
knowledge but this part wasn't. I'm not that familiar with the
other items so I can't judge them as easily but to me this isn't
a 'must read' anymore.

Ernst

This list members' opinion on the guy may also be affected (either way) by
his following statement:
 
"In black-and-white, I have yet to see an inkjet print that looks as good as
a traditional silver gelatin or platinum/palladium fine print."
 
It's definitely interesting, however, the simple math he did to find out
that a 7-ink set of Epson UltraChrome inks comes at over 41,000$ per gallon.
MIS complete equivalent inkset (with 8 inks, including the two blacks for
matte and glossy) is 2,656$ (bulk inks).
 
Alessandro

-----Original Message-----
From: Ernst Dinkla [mailto:E.Dinkla@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:03
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Very interesting article on evolution of Digital
Printing



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom OConnell" <TomOC@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 7:46 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Very interesting article on evolution of
Digital Printing


> http://www.mediastreet.com/pdf/photo_tech.pdf
<http://www.mediastreet.com/pdf/photo_tech.pdf> 
>
> From the May/June copy of Photo Techniques...a must read by
Mark
> Dubovoy.
>
> If you can get the hard copy, the article about Al Weber is
totally
> great...how and why he shunned Ansel Adams and other esoteric
> photographers...
>
> cheers,
>
> Tom O'Connell


Tom,

This PDF is an add for Mediastreet's Generations and Mark hasn't
been very accurate on the ink data.

I'm using the same ink but I have some reservations on
Generations being more fadeproof than Ultrachrome, Wilhelm's
testing has changed over the years (after the Epson dye ink
affair mainly) and I wonder how well Generations Black + Yellow +
Light Magenta will withstand the test now. Mediastreet had some
luck in having the first pigment ink with a good gamut tested
quite early by Wilhelm and just dye or small gamut pigment inks
as the competition then.

Quite soon after that Epson introduced the 9500 printer with the
Encapsulated Pigment inks called Archival inks, Their fade
resistance is a lot better than Generations. The gamut probably
less and they have some other problems. Mark writes that the
encapsulation breaks open on hitting the paper, I don't believe
it is the case and I have not seen that explanation anywhere
before (there is a dye ink developed now that will use that
method though, reactive dye ink in micro capsules, another
comapny).

After that Epson introduced Dura Brite pigment inks and the new
more fade proof dyes for the 1270/1290/10000 etc.
Dura Brite (not Bright) pigment inks are used in the Epson C
series printers and not in the 1270 as Mark writes, and the
orange plague problem was with the Epson 1270/1290/870 etc dye
inks and not with Dura Brite.

Ultrachrome (not Ultrabright as Mark writes) inks were the last
pigment inks introduced by Epson.



Could be that the rest of the article was written with a lot of
knowledge but this part wasn't. I'm not that familiar with the
other items so I can't judge them as easily but to me this isn't
a 'must read' anymore.

Ernst







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree.  He is just grabbing abstract ideas to justify his statements.

I would tell HIM, "If bullfrogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their butt
when they hit the ground. But, they don't; so they do."

Seth

=-----Original Message-----
=From: Alessandro Pardi [mailto:alessandro.pardi@...] 
=
=This list members' opinion on the guy may also be affected 
=(either way) by his following statement:
= 
="In black-and-white, I have yet to see an inkjet print that 
=looks as good as a traditional silver gelatin or 
=platinum/palladium fine print."
= 
=It's definitely interesting, however, the simple math he did 
=to find out that a 7-ink set of Epson UltraChrome inks comes 
=at over 41,000$ per gallon. MIS complete equivalent inkset 
=(with 8 inks, including the two blacks for matte and glossy) 
=is 2,656$ (bulk inks).
=

OK, I'll buy Mark's numbers on inks costs.. Hell we've known that dirty 
little OEM secret for years...

OTOH:  He's nuts in calling film and traditional prints "digital"... 
Sure, the individual Silver Salt grains are exposed individually, BUT, 
and this is a big BUT, they lay over each other and in depth, not just 
in a uniform 2 dimensional pattern.  An emulsion is a 3 dimensional 
colloidal suspension of Ag grains in some type of gelatine or 
gelatine-like layer.. The random overlays and depth of the emulsion 
clearly create an analog value set, not a digital one..

His facts on "DuraBright" inks (he misspelled the name, not I) are 
completely wrong as well.. Along with the info on which OEM inks the 
1270 uses. As for his commentary on the resin encapsulated EPSON 
pigments, GEEZ!  Part of the problem with them on microporous papers or 
on the vast majority of RC type papers is that the epoxy resin capsule 
will NOT bond to the receiver and rolls off like a miniature ball 
bearing... In no way do those resin capsules break open on impact... 
What would be the point (unless the ink inside the capsule is a dye)? 
 Why encapsulate, cause potential metamerism, and other issues, only to 
have it disgorge raw pigment particles  onto the paper?  Just put the 
pigments in suspension instead...  If his model were true, you'd face 
the silliness of creating larger pigment particles, and creating higher 
clog potential just to place much smaller pigment particles on the 
receiver? It's sheer nonsense..

On behalf of Berkeley alumni everywhere, I want to apologize for Mark 
having a Physics degree and still getting the physical chemistry of inks 
so messed up..  ;-)  He may be a great artist. A chemical engineer or 
physical chemist he ain't.
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

****************************************************************
CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is © Copyright, 
Keith Krebs, 2001-2002, All Rights Reserved. It is expressly for the 
sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and 
privileged information. Absent the express written authorization of the 
author, any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, transfer, or 
distribution is explicitly prohibited and taken at your own risk. If you 
are not, or are unsure whether you are, the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original 
message. Violations will be prosecuted to the FULL extent allowed under 
applicable civil and criminal law. Imagery published or distributed in 
violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image 
liquidated damages charge, in addition to any applicable Copyright 
violation penalties.

POV IMage Service Banner
****************************************************************
{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If bought in pint sizes, the whole set (7 inks) comes to $340. for a 
total of 112 oz. Therefore, 128oz or a gallon of this inkset would 
come to $388.00
Cheers,
Andre


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Pardi 
<alessandro.pardi@i...> wrote:
> This list members' opinion on the guy may also be affected (either 
way) by
> his following statement:
>  
> "In black-and-white, I have yet to see an inkjet print that looks 
as good as
> a traditional silver gelatin or platinum/palladium fine print."
>  
> It's definitely interesting, however, the simple math he did to 
find out
> that a 7-ink set of Epson UltraChrome inks comes at over 41,000$ 
per gallon.
> MIS complete equivalent inkset (with 8 inks, including the two 
blacks for

> matte and glossy) is 2,656$ (bulk inks).
>  
> Alessandro

Andre, et al-

There will always be writers/reviewers like him.

Heck, if we wanted to figure out how many fractions of a pennyweight of
silver is in a sheet of gelatin fiber paper, then calculate how many
$$HUNDREDS we are paying per ounce, well, we'd have him.  Since silver goes
for ~$5.20 (USD) per ounce, it's all nuts if you look at it that way.

Seth

=-----Original Message-----
=From: sceptre12345 [mailto:am1000@...] 
=
=If bought in pint sizes, the whole set (7 inks) comes to $340. for a 
=total of 112 oz. Therefore, 128oz or a gallon of this inkset would 
=come to $388.00
=Cheers,
=Andre
=
=
=--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Pardi 
=<alessandro.pardi@i...> wrote:
=> This list members' opinion on the guy may also be affected (either
=way) by
=> his following statement:
=>  
=> "In black-and-white, I have yet to see an inkjet print that looks
=as good as
=> a traditional silver gelatin or platinum/palladium fine print."
=>  
=> It's definitely interesting, however, the simple math he did to
=find out
=> that a 7-ink set of Epson UltraChrome inks comes at over 41,000$
=per gallon.
=> MIS complete equivalent inkset (with 8 inks, including the two
=blacks for
=> matte and glossy) is 2,656$ (bulk inks).
=>  
=> Alessandro
=
=
=
=------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
=---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your 
=Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. 
=http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/=ucIolB/TM
=
=---------------------------------------------------------------
=------~->
=
=Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
=Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The 
=page is at:
=
=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
=
=If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
=you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
=preferences by visiting this same page.
=
=Please follow these basic guidelines:
=- Include your full name with your message.
=- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
=- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
=messages to keep them short.
=- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
=subject header.
=- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
=- Complete your Yahoo profile.
=- Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
=the various resources on the homepage. 
=
=
= 
=
=Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
=http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
=
=
=

HI KEITH-

MY COMMENTS IN CAPS BELOW:

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. 
Image Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
> OK, I'll buy Mark's numbers on inks costs.. Hell we've known that 
dirty 
> little OEM secret for years...
> 
IT'S WORSE THAN GILETTE
> OTOH:  He's nuts in calling film and traditional 
prints "digital"... 
> Sure, the individual Silver Salt grains are exposed individually, 
BUT, 
> and this is a big BUT, they lay over each other and in depth, not 
just 
> in a uniform 2 dimensional pattern.  An emulsion is a 3 dimensional 
> colloidal suspension of Ag grains in some type of gelatine or 
> gelatine-like layer.. The random overlays and depth of the emulsion 
> clearly create an analog value set, not a digital one..
> 

HMMMM...SOUNDS LIKE PHOTOSHOP LAYERS?

> His facts on "DuraBright" inks (he misspelled the name, not I) are 
> completely wrong as well.. Along with the info on which OEM inks 
the 
> 1270 uses. As for his commentary on the resin encapsulated EPSON 
> pigments, GEEZ!  Part of the problem with them on microporous 
papers or 
> on the vast majority of RC type papers is that the epoxy resin 
capsule 
> will NOT bond to the receiver and rolls off like a miniature ball 
> bearing... In no way do those resin capsules break open on 
impact... 
> What would be the point (unless the ink inside the capsule is a 
dye)? 
>  Why encapsulate, cause potential metamerism, and other issues, 
only to 
> have it disgorge raw pigment particles  onto the paper?  Just put 
the 
> pigments in suspension instead...  If his model were true, you'd 
face 
> the silliness of creating larger pigment particles, and creating 
higher 
> clog potential just to place much smaller pigment particles on the 
> receiver? It's sheer nonsense..
> 
IN FAIRNESS TO HIM, I BET HE GOT THIS FROM EPSON

> On behalf of Berkeley alumni everywhere, I want to apologize for 
Mark 
> having a Physics degree and still getting the physical chemistry of 
inks 
> so messed up..  ;-)  He may be a great artist. A chemical engineer 
or 
> physical chemist he ain't.

WELL...I GUESS HE WON'T WANT TO BE THE GUEST SPEAKER AT OUR BAY AREA 
BW PRINTERS MEETING <G> OR MAYBE HE WILL....


> Keith
> 
>  
> 
> "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON 
printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
>  
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks 
together 
> guys"
> 
>  
> 
> ****************************************************************
> CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
> This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is © 
Copyright, 
> Keith Krebs, 2001-2002, All Rights Reserved. It is expressly for 
the 
> sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and 
> privileged information. Absent the express written authorization of 
the 
> author, any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, transfer, or 
> distribution is explicitly prohibited and taken at your own risk. 
If you 
> are not, or are unsure whether you are, the intended recipient, 
please 
> contact the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the 
original 
> message. Violations will be prosecuted to the FULL extent allowed 
under 
> applicable civil and criminal law. Imagery published or distributed 
in 
> violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image 
> liquidated damages charge, in addition to any applicable Copyright 
> violation penalties.
> 
> POV IMage Service Banner
> ****************************************************************
> { The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-
image.com/ }

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

$6.16 per sheet of Letter sized Arches Infinity - what a rip off...

Being interested in the new Arches paper, and a long time Arches user for
other purposes, I ordered a sample pack of Arches Infinity from
www.digitalartsupplies.com - $20.00 for a sample pack - not too bad, but I
recall a time when samples were free.

Then I get an email saying the total is $37.00 including $17.00 for shipping
six sheets of paper - even to Canada that's a rip-off. So I emailed back
saying either just send it letter mail or cancel the order. But a few days
later, the paper arrives and the Visa has been charged $37.00. Digital Art
Supplies has so far failed to respond to my queries about this (like why
they didn't cancel the order when requested).

In the meantime, figuring the order was probably cancelled, and feeling a
little annoyed, I emailed Inkjet Goodies and asked if they had samples -
sure we'll stick em in the mail - they're free. On top of which, the 100%
free samples (not even a charge for postage) arrive before the $6.16 a sheet
samples from DigitalArtSupplies.

So - guess who gets my vote for good service and my next order for paper and
ink... www.inkjetgoodies.com