Digital BW, The Print

Kaolin, Calcium Carbonate, Gelatin, Silica, Starch, PVA are some ingredients
of inkjet coatings, of course with many other ingredients and in many
different combinations. Our coating recipes often include 10-12 different
ingredients.

Just curious, why do you want to coat your own papers for inkjet printing?
There are many coated papers available which work very well with quadtone
inks and have been tested for compatibility and stability.

Diana York
Hawk Mountain Art Papers www.hawkmtnartpapers.com
100% cotton digital fine art inkjet print papers

----- Original Message -----

From: Kees Brandenburg <info@...>
> Who has tried sizing uncoated papers (before printing)?
>
> As a gumprinter I am sizing all my papers (mainly watercolour and
> rives BFK) with (formalin) hardened gelatin.
> I tried these papers with Epson OEM dyes in a 1200 with no result.
> The dyes float off on top of the hardened gelatin.
>
> Will this be different with pigment based inks (I ordered a CIS and
> MIS quad black inks this week)?
>
> After receiving the CIS and inks I will experiment with different
> coatings -  unhardened gelatin, hardened gelatin, starch, PVA etc.
>
> Who knows what coating is used by archival inkjet paper manufacturers
> (hahnemuhle, somerset etc.)?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Diana York / Hawk Meadow 
Morgans" <diana@h...> wrote:
> Kaolin, Calcium Carbonate, Gelatin, Silica, Starch, PVA are some ingredients
> of inkjet coatings, of course with many other ingredients and in many
> different combinations. Our coating recipes often include 10-12 different
> ingredients.
> 
> Just curious, why do you want to coat your own papers for inkjet printing?
> There are many coated papers available which work very well with quadtone
> inks and have been tested for compatibility and stability.
> 
> Diana York
> Hawk Mountain Art Papers www.hawkmtnartpapers.com
> 100% cotton digital fine art inkjet print papers

I think I can speak for most of us on this list in saying that we are 
not as happy as we could be with the papers currently on the market.

I want someone to take something simple and smooth, like arches hot 
press, and put a nice coating on it. Sounds simple, but it hasn't been 
done yet as far as I can see.  I also heard that some people want to 
coat their own so they have a nice deckle (even though that can be 
artificially created I know)

I am also annoyed with some of the companies stated claims for some of 
the papers. I read one thing, like "has a nice coating for ink jet" 
sometimes on both sides, so I purchase some. And then it turns out I 
could get better blacks on some uncoated papers!
oh well,

-mh

<diana@h...> wrote:

> Kaolin, Calcium Carbonate, Gelatin, Silica, Starch, PVA are some 
ingredients
> of inkjet coatings, of course with many other ingredients and in 
many
> different combinations. Our coating recipes often include 10-12 
different
> ingredients.

See that's the problem. You guys keep this stuff close to your chest 
so people become dependant on you.


> 
> Just curious, why do you want to coat your own papers for inkjet 
printing?
> There are many coated papers available which work very well with 
quadtone
> inks and have been tested for compatibility and stability.

Paper manufacturers are notorious for changing components without 
telling the end user. 
One of the main uses (I believe) for using 'alternate processes' 
besides there inherent beauty and craft is independance from the big 
boys of photography.

Everybody complains about Epson chipping their carts but then they go 
and buy piezography which is, according to the maker, tied in to the 
ink..don't unnerstand it....;?)

DH

David,

In all fairness to Hawk Mountain and the other paper manufacturers I 
have to point out the Kodak, Agfa, Ilford, etc. have never told us 
the blend of the silver halides they use nor the source of the 
gelatin it is mixed in nor nature of the clay sub coating nor the 
nature of the paper substrate.

The uniqueness of each company's formulas, materials and processes is 
their (they hope) competitive edge. Having worked in the chemical 
industries this type of information is pretty closely guarded.

The problem here is that we are on the frontier and how the various 
inks react with the different paper coatings is not well understood 
and everything is rapidly changing.  In the silver paper world they 
all pretty much worked and it was just a mater of personal taste.

Now if all the manufacturers came together and shared all their 
information this would advance much more quickly, but how do the 
individual companies, especially the smaller ones, benefit 
financially?

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., davidhatton@t... wrote:
>  <diana@h...> wrote:
> 
> > Kaolin, Calcium Carbonate, Gelatin, Silica, Starch, PVA are some 
> ingredients
> > of inkjet coatings, of course with many other ingredients and in 
> many
> > different combinations. Our coating recipes often include 10-12 
> different
> > ingredients.
> 
> See that's the problem. You guys keep this stuff close to your 
chest 
> so people become dependant on you.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Just curious, why do you want to coat your own papers for inkjet 
> printing?
> > There are many coated papers available which work very well with 
> quadtone
> > inks and have been tested for compatibility and stability.
> 
> Paper manufacturers are notorious for changing components without 
> telling the end user. 
> One of the main uses (I believe) for using 'alternate processes' 
> besides there inherent beauty and craft is independance from the 
big 
> boys of photography.
> 
> Everybody complains about Epson chipping their carts but then they 
go 
> and buy piezography which is, according to the maker, tied in to 
the 

> ink..don't unnerstand it....;?)
> 
> DH

Hi Martin,

I do understand what you're saying and I do agree that certain 
proprietry info needs to be confidential to promote not only R&D but 
competition. It was said more in a blackish jest than anything.

I was using it as a lever to support my argument against an artists 
dependency on manufacturers whims. It's not unknown for a 
manufacturer to just stop producing a paper altogether leaving people 
high and dry.

Developing (no pun intended) ones own paper and processes goes some 
way to removing this dependancy.

I hope this explains my statement and apologise for any offence...

DH

David,

No offense taken. I actually applaud anyone's efforts to gain a more 
direct control over their materials and processes.

I know what you mean about suddenly having your materials go out of 
production. I was devastated when Oriental Seagul went off the 
market. Not only can a paper or other material suddenly disappear 
from the market but, worse in my mind, it is drastically changed by 
the manufacturer without notice.

Even if you go back to the manufactured materials, developing your 
own is a wonderful way to learn how things work and what is and what 
isn't critical to the results.

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., davidhatton@t... wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> I do understand what you're saying and I do agree that certain 
> proprietry info needs to be confidential to promote not only R&D 
but 
> competition. It was said more in a blackish jest than anything.
> 
> I was using it as a lever to support my argument against an artists 
> dependency on manufacturers whims. It's not unknown for a 
> manufacturer to just stop producing a paper altogether leaving 
people 

> high and dry.
> 
> Developing (no pun intended) ones own paper and processes goes some 
> way to removing this dependancy.
> 
> I hope this explains my statement and apologise for any offence...
> 
> DH

Recently I asked Lotus View Camera's to tell me more about the 
mysterious "coting solution" they sell at 
http://www.lotusviewcamera.at/ look in the digital darkroom section.

I asked them:
Can you give me some more details on this "Creative Coting" solution 
for inkjektprints on archival papers. What components are in this 
solution? Is it tested from a conservation point of view?


This was their answer - a bit disappointing.


Dear Mr Brandenburg,

my inquiries didn't bring as much as I hoped...

The conservation point of view isn't tested,

the ingredients are

-Wasser als Lösemittel (water)
-wasserlösliche, organische Bindemittel (water soluble, organic 
thickenings)
-Konservierungsmittel (preservatives)
-und sonstige Zusatzstoffe (other ingrediences)

Many greetings nevertheless,

Lotus View Camera
Maja Ströbele

The answer is worth it just for the word  zusatzstoffe!

> From: "Kees Brandenburg" <info@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 11:59:01 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sizing uncoated papers
> 
> Recently I asked Lotus View Camera's to tell me more about the
> mysterious "coting solution" they sell at
> http://www.lotusviewcamera.at/ look in the digital darkroom section.
> 
> I asked them:
> Can you give me some more details on this "Creative Coting" solution
> for inkjektprints on archival papers. What components are in this
> solution? Is it tested from a conservation point of view?
> 
> 
> This was their answer - a bit disappointing.
> 
> 
> Dear Mr Brandenburg,
> 
> my inquiries didn't bring as much as I hoped...
> 
> The conservation point of view isn't tested,
> 
> the ingredients are
> 
> -Wasser als Lösemittel (water)
> -wasserlösliche, organische Bindemittel (water soluble, organic
> thickenings)
> -Konservierungsmittel (preservatives)
> -und sonstige Zusatzstoffe (other ingrediences)
> 
> Many greetings nevertheless,
> 
> Lotus View Camera
> Maja Ströbele
> 
> 
> 
> 
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