Digital BW, The Print

Not sure if this has been discussed before, I couldn't find any 
record of it in a quick search of the archives.  I love the idea of 
the print exchange that is running over the pond.
Are there enough interested parties to kick one off in the UK?  I 
know a couple of you for sure are working out of England and 
following a 'pleasant' conversation with our Customs and Excise I 
know that MIS send a lot of inks this way....
Has it been considered?  Anybody interested in talking about setting 
one up?  Even on a small scale I would find it very useful, I am 
always wondering whether I am doing things right or wrong!

Let me know your thoughts...

Steve.

I am...what's involved?!

I use a 1270 with VT blax and print on folex duo at the moment and 
always looking for ways to improve...

Contact me on the address above

Gareth

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scrber" 
<stephen.bate@m...> wrote:
> Not sure if this has been discussed before, I couldn't find any 
> record of it in a quick search of the archives.  I love the idea of 
> the print exchange that is running over the pond.
> Are there enough interested parties to kick one off in the UK?  I 
> know a couple of you for sure are working out of England and 
> following a 'pleasant' conversation with our Customs and Excise I 
> know that MIS send a lot of inks this way....
> Has it been considered?  Anybody interested in talking about 
setting 

> one up?  Even on a small scale I would find it very useful, I am 
> always wondering whether I am doing things right or wrong!
> 
> Let me know your thoughts...
> 
> Steve.

Steve-

If you want any help setting one up, contact me offline and I'll be 
glad to share my thoughts from the last year and a half of doing 
monthly exchanges. 

Keep in mind that we encourage UK and everyone everywhere to jump in 
now and then. Each month there is a growing world wide 
contstituancy...2-3 almost every month from UK, Norway, Brazil, 
Italy, Switzerland...

I can work with you on how we deal with the shipping.

cheers,

Tom O'Connell



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scrber" 
<stephen.bate@m...> wrote:
> Not sure if this has been discussed before, I couldn't find any 
> record of it in a quick search of the archives.  I love the idea of 
> the print exchange that is running over the pond.
> Are there enough interested parties to kick one off in the UK?  I 
> know a couple of you for sure are working out of England and 
> following a 'pleasant' conversation with our Customs and Excise I 
> know that MIS send a lot of inks this way....
> Has it been considered?  Anybody interested in talking about 
setting 

> one up?  Even on a small scale I would find it very useful, I am 
> always wondering whether I am doing things right or wrong!
> 
> Let me know your thoughts...
> 
> Steve.

Steve

Why not call it a European Exchange?  Even though we certainly don't 
want to limit to European contributors only, I'm sure there are 
enough active/lurking list members from Europe alone who will 
participate given enough ease.

K2

I just made my first attempt at coating a print using the following
procedure:

- 2 layers of Golden Soft Gel (Gloss) brushed on with one hour drying
time between the two coats.

- 2 layers of Golden Polymer Varnish with UVLS (Gloss) also brushed on
with one hour drying time between coats.

My first impression is that this looks really beautiful. Sure I got
visible brush streaks from the first coat, and lots of dust on the
print, but the blacks are much, much better, and I feel the picture got
some extra 'punch' that wasn't there before. It's got the deep blacks of
glossy papers with the texture and archivability of fine art matte
papers - Seems like a great combination to me. 

I measured the uncoated black to 2.54 and coated to 2.85 on EAM. This
should only be about 2% difference, but in reality it looks much
greater. Holding an uncoated black patch against the coated print makes
the patch look very gray, not black.

Next time I'm going to try a roll instead of a brush for the first coat,
and do the coating in my bathroom instead of my dusty carpeted room.

This was very encouraging, I'm really looking forward to doing more
experiments now! 

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Daniel,

try rods such as...
http://www.buschmancorp.com/wirewound.asp.
http://www.rdspecialties.com/labs.htm
http://www.eepjon.com/Rods.htm

Ask Robert Morrison (on this list) for more details.


Also look at:
http://www.ijsupplies.com/ij-clear-coatings.html

Good luck going after the holy grail!


Antonis. 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:

> I just made my first attempt at coating a print using the following
> procedure:
> 
> - 2 layers of Golden Soft Gel (Gloss) brushed on with one hour drying
> time between the two coats.
> 
> - 2 layers of Golden Polymer Varnish with UVLS (Gloss) also brushed on
> with one hour drying time between coats.
> 
> My first impression is that this looks really beautiful. Sure I got
> visible brush streaks from the first coat, and lots of dust on the
> print, but the blacks are much, much better, and I feel the picture got
> some extra 'punch' that wasn't there before. It's got the deep blacks of
> glossy papers with the texture and archivability of fine art matte
> papers - Seems like a great combination to me. 
> 
> I measured the uncoated black to 2.54 and coated to 2.85 on EAM. This
> should only be about 2% difference, but in reality it looks much
> greater. Holding an uncoated black patch against the coated print makes
> the patch look very gray, not black.
> 
> Next time I'm going to try a roll instead of a brush for the first coat,
> and do the coating in my bathroom instead of my dusty carpeted room.
> 
> This was very encouraging, I'm really looking forward to doing more
> experiments now! 
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

On söndag, jun 1, 2003, at 01:45 Europe/Stockholm, Daniel Staver wrote:

> I just made my first attempt at coating a print using the following
> procedure:
>
> - 2 layers of Golden Soft Gel (Gloss) brushed on with one hour drying
> time between the two coats.
>
> - 2 layers of Golden Polymer Varnish with UVLS (Gloss) also brushed on
> with one hour drying time between coats.

Daniel, could you tell us what these products are? "Golden" I suppose 
is the Trade Mark? What is  "Soft Gel"? Or perhaps what your logic was 
when you used what you used? We hear about all the US stuff but those 
are often not available here in Europe.


cheers,
henrik

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "K2 Chittin" 
<k2lists@h...> wrote:
> Steve
> 
> Why not call it a European Exchange?  Even though we certainly 
don't 
> want to limit to European contributors only, I'm sure there are 
> enough active/lurking list members from Europe alone who will 
> participate given enough ease.
> 
> K2

Yep, good idea - as ever though, I guess it will depend on how many 
folks show an interest.
I will give it a few more days on list and then perhaps post a 
formal invite to see how many up-takers there may be...

Steve

Hi Henrik,

Try www.fotoimport.com - They're the Norwegian company I bought these
coatings from. Press 'nettbutikk' in the lower right of the screen and
you'll find the web-store. The coatings are under 'Digital avdeling' ->
'Blekkskriver papir'. I ordered the 946ml bottles since they were only
twice the price of the 119ml ones. I had chosen my products based on
reccommendations from the owner of the store in a duscussion group.

It was very nice dealing with them, I got a call from the owner right
after placing my order to tell me that they were out of the Paterson
Sample Pack I'd ordered, and then we had a nice talk where he gave me
helpful hints on coating procedures and discussed various printing
techniques.

Hope this helps!

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henrik Frejborg [mailto:henrik.frejborg@...] 
> Sent: 1. juni 2003 09:17
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] First attempt at coating
> 
> 
> 
> On söndag, jun 1, 2003, at 01:45 Europe/Stockholm, Daniel 
> Staver wrote:
> 
> > I just made my first attempt at coating a print using the following
> > procedure:
> >
> > - 2 layers of Golden Soft Gel (Gloss) brushed on with one 
> hour drying 
> > time between the two coats.
> >
> > - 2 layers of Golden Polymer Varnish with UVLS (Gloss) also 
> brushed on 
> > with one hour drying time between coats.
> 
> Daniel, could you tell us what these products are? "Golden" I suppose 
> is the Trade Mark? What is  "Soft Gel"? Or perhaps what your 
> logic was 
> when you used what you used? We hear about all the US stuff but those 
> are often not available here in Europe.
> 
> 
> cheers,
> henrik
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------~->
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
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> updated. The page is at:
> 
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I'm nod Daniel, but I found it at:

http://www.currys.com/medium/golvar.html

"Daniel, could you tell us what these products are? "Golden" I suppose
is the Trade Mark? What is  "Soft Gel"? Or perhaps what your logic was
when you used what you used? We hear about all the US stuff but those
are often not available here in Europe.

cheers,
henrik"


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Daniel,

Do these coatings increase the D-max?

Nick

> Do these coatings increase the D-max?

Yes, D-max is increased noticably. I got an increase from 2.54 to 2.85
which should be around 2% increase. And no, my D-max readings aren't
comparable to any of the values you usually see quoted here. I borrowed
a densitometer with no instruction manual, and can't find any info on it
online. It does, however, seem to be useful for linearization and
comparison of my own prints.

Here's a quick, uncorrected scan of an uncoated patch (lower half)
against the coated print:
http://daniel.staver.no/img/coating.jpg

When I actually look at the print compared to an uncoated patch the
increase appears much bigger than 2%. The blacks are much more
comparable to what you'll typically see on glossy papers than matte
papers. It was also very easy to do the coating. Total time spent is
probably less than 20 minutes as most of the time you're just waiting
for the various layers of coating to dry.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> Yes, D-max is increased noticably. 

That's great. It might bring the D-max closer to the dye inks on 
matte papers. I must try this. Have you ever tried Lyson Print Guard 
or the PermaJet spray?

Nick

> > Yes, D-max is increased noticably.
> That's great. It might bring the D-max closer to the dye inks on 
> matte papers. I must try this. Have you ever tried Lyson Print Guard 
> or the PermaJet spray?

Sorry, never tried any of those.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

There is an extensive discussion on coating in the archives on this
list...dating back more than a year.  Search under coating and also
hyrocote.  Paul Roark, Martin Wesley, Mark Tucker and I (Robert Morrison)
have contributed a good bit of information.  There is also a lot of info on
the Yahoo wide format list from Mark Tucker.

In short you can increase pigment on matte paper dmax by about 0.4 to 0.6
units by coating...equaling or exceeding the blacks of an air-dried silver
print.  The greatest difficulty is getting an even coat.  Brushes will not
get you there because of brush marks and rollers will not work because of
foaming.  For smaller prints (16 x 20 and smaller) you can get good results
with the Mayer Rods that Antonis Ricos mentioned below.  You need to set up
a coating station which includes a 1/2 in. thick piece of glass and need to
get a #30 Mayer rod.  For coating prints larger than 24" you will need to
use a HVLP sprayer which involves constructing a spray booth to use
it...much bigger project (once again see Mark Tucker's posts on the
wideformat yahoo list). Previous posts contain instructions for using it.
The best commercially available coating for this purpose is Hydrocote
polyshield clear superpoly <www.hydrocote.com> , which is a water-based
aliphatic polyurethane made for preserving wood.  It is "non-yellowing" and
relatively non-toxic, but ventilation and gloves are a good idea.  A single
#30 Mayer Rod coat of Hydrocote (takes less than 1 minute for an
8x10...start to finish) will product better results than you are currently
getting.

As you will see from my older posts and some of the information in the files
section on this list, many of us have experimented with the Golden products.
I have used exactly what you are using and there are much better solutions.
In addition I made my own formula with the intent of commercializing...but
the economics are just not feasible given the existence of products like
Hydrocote.

I've spent a lot of time on this...I've also spent a huge amount of time
testing the possibilities of using the new "photo" inks like the
Ultrachromes (or MIS's new Ultraquad inks) on RC papers to get similar
effects.  The prints you can get from the 2200 using a driver like Ink Jet
Control or Imageprint may make coating unnecessary.  Personally, I still
like the coated prints because of a complete absence of bronzing...which
tends to be a problem with the RC papers.  In the end the RC papers will
always have some glare problem because there is no, or very little ink laid
down in highlights.  We may be able avoid both by spraying these papers with
a light coat of Krylon Kamvar varnish or the like.  This workflow may be
easier.

Another interesting possiblity are the emergence of fiber-based gloss inkjet
papers...which will begin to enter the market at the end of the summer.

Robert



in On 5/31/03 6:10 PM, "Antonis Ricos" <antonisphoto@...> wrote:

> Daniel,
> 
> try rods such as...
> http://www.buschmancorp.com/wirewound.asp.
> http://www.rdspecialties.com/labs.htm
> http://www.eepjon.com/Rods.htm
> 
> Ask Robert Morrison (on this list) for more details.
> 
> 
> Also look at:
> http://www.ijsupplies.com/ij-clear-coatings.html
> 
> Good luck going after the holy grail!
> 
> 
> Antonis. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver"
> <daniel@p...> wrote:
>> I just made my first attempt at coating a print using the following
>> procedure:
>> 
>> - 2 layers of Golden Soft Gel (Gloss) brushed on with one hour drying
>> time between the two coats.
>> 
>> - 2 layers of Golden Polymer Varnish with UVLS (Gloss) also brushed on
>> with one hour drying time between coats.
>> 
>> My first impression is that this looks really beautiful. Sure I got
>> visible brush streaks from the first coat, and lots of dust on the
>> print, but the blacks are much, much better, and I feel the picture got
>> some extra 'punch' that wasn't there before. It's got the deep blacks of
>> glossy papers with the texture and archivability of fine art matte
>> papers - Seems like a great combination to me.
>> 
>> I measured the uncoated black to 2.54 and coated to 2.85 on EAM. This
>> should only be about 2% difference, but in reality it looks much
>> greater. Holding an uncoated black patch against the coated print makes
>> the patch look very gray, not black.
>> 
>> Next time I'm going to try a roll instead of a brush for the first coat,
>> and do the coating in my bathroom instead of my dusty carpeted room.
>> 
>> This was very encouraging, I'm really looking forward to doing more
>> experiments now!
>> 
>> --
>> Daniel Staver
>> http://daniel.staver.no
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

Thanks for the information! I'm going to try to look for a norwegian or
scandinavian company that sells the rods, otherwise I'll have to make an
international order I guess. 

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Antonis Ricos [mailto:antonisphoto@...] 
> Sent: 1. juni 2003 03:11
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: First attempt at coating
> 
> 
> Daniel,
> 
> try rods such as...
> http://www.buschmancorp.com/wirewound.asp.
> http://www.rdspecialties.com/labs.htm
> http://www.eepjon.com/Rods.htm
> 
> Ask Robert Morrison (on this list) for more details.
> 
> 
> Also look at:
> http://www.ijsupplies.com/ij-clear-coatings.html
> 
> Good luck going after the holy grail!
> 
> 
> Antonis. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
> <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > I just made my first attempt at coating a print using the following
> > procedure:
> > 
> > - 2 layers of Golden Soft Gel (Gloss) brushed on with one 
> hour drying 
> > time between the two coats.
> > 
> > - 2 layers of Golden Polymer Varnish with UVLS (Gloss) also 
> brushed on 
> > with one hour drying time between coats.
> > 
> > My first impression is that this looks really beautiful. Sure I got 
> > visible brush streaks from the first coat, and lots of dust on the 
> > print, but the blacks are much, much better, and I feel the picture 
> > got some extra 'punch' that wasn't there before. It's got the deep 
> > blacks of glossy papers with the texture and archivability 
> of fine art 
> > matte papers - Seems like a great combination to me.
> > 
> > I measured the uncoated black to 2.54 and coated to 2.85 on 
> EAM. This 
> > should only be about 2% difference, but in reality it looks much 
> > greater. Holding an uncoated black patch against the coated print 
> > makes the patch look very gray, not black.
> > 
> > Next time I'm going to try a roll instead of a brush for the first 
> > coat, and do the coating in my bathroom instead of my dusty 
> carpeted 
> > room.
> > 
> > This was very encouraging, I'm really looking forward to doing more 
> > experiments now!
> > 
> > --
> > Daniel Staver
> > http://daniel.staver.no
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your 
> Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. 
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA> /ucIolB/TM
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------~->
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
> Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being 
> updated. The page is at:
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> There is an extensive discussion on coating in the archives 
> on this list...dating back more than a year.  Search under 
> coating and also hyrocote.  Paul Roark, Martin Wesley, Mark 
> Tucker and I (Robert Morrison) have contributed a good bit of 
> information.  There is also a lot of info on the Yahoo wide 
> format list from Mark Tucker.

Thanks! I'll have a look in the archives.

> clear superpoly <www.hydrocote.com> , which is a water-based 
> aliphatic polyurethane made for preserving wood.  It is 
> "non-yellowing" and relatively non-toxic, but ventilation and 
> gloves are a good idea.  A single #30 Mayer Rod coat of 
> Hydrocote (takes less than 1 minute for an 8x10...start to 
> finish) will product better results than you are currently getting.

That sounds tempting. I'm definitely going to aquire a rod, and I'll
consider the hydrocote as well. In what way will the results from the
Hydrocote be better than what I'm currently getting? (Besides only
having to use one coat of course) 

I'm using a 2100, so I'll never use sizes larger than 13x19... 

> I've spent a lot of time on this...I've also spent a huge 
> amount of time testing the possibilities of using the new 
> "photo" inks like the Ultrachromes (or MIS's new Ultraquad 
> inks) on RC papers to get similar effects.  The prints you 
> can get from the 2200 using a driver like Ink Jet Control or 
> Imageprint may make coating unnecessary.  Personally, I still 
> like the coated prints because of a complete absence of 
> bronzing...which tends to be a problem with the RC papers.  
> In the end the RC papers will always have some glare problem 
> because there is no, or very little ink laid down in 
> highlights.  We may be able avoid both by spraying these 
> papers with a light coat of Krylon Kamvar varnish or the 
> like.  This workflow may be easier.

The bronzing is definitely an issue, and I'd like to avoid that
entirely. I actually quite like the texture of fine-art papers, and
prefer it to RC papers. That's one of the reasons I'm so excited about
the coating, I get to keep the texture of the paper while I get the
D-max of RC papers. 

Also, isn't the archivability of all of todays RC papers much lower than
matte papers? Or is that changing with the inroduction of new papers?

> Another interesting possiblity are the emergence of 
> fiber-based gloss inkjet papers...which will begin to enter 
> the market at the end of the summer.

I must admit I have no clue whatsoever as to what a fiber-based print
might look like, traditional or otherwise. But it'll be interesting to
see what it looks like since there's so much talk about it. I've grown
up with the computer as my my primary tool for creativity, and got into
photography much later, so skipping all traditional processes and
jumping straight into the filmscanner/digital/inkjet combo seemed much
more natural for me. This means I have little or no previous reference
for what my prints should look like. All I want is for them to look
really, really good.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

I have not fathomed out how these exchanges work (presumably prints 
aren't matted for example) and what the commitment is/might be.  How 
are prints circulated/distributed? I guess print sizes should be 
limited. I'm in Greece and also concerned about postal reliability 
but yes, I'm interested.  


Colin
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scrber" 
<stephen.bate@m...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "K2 Chittin" 
> <k2lists@h...> wrote:
> > Steve
> > 
> > Why not call it a European Exchange?  Even though we certainly 
> don't 
> > want to limit to European contributors only, I'm sure there are 
> > enough active/lurking list members from Europe alone who will 
> > participate given enough ease.
> > 
> > K2
> 
> Yep, good idea - as ever though, I guess it will depend on how many 
> folks show an interest.
> I will give it a few more days on list and then perhaps post a 
> formal invite to see how many up-takers there may be...
> 
> Steve

> That sounds tempting. I'm definitely going to aquire a rod, and I'll
> consider the hydrocote as well. In what way will the results from 
the
> Hydrocote be better than what I'm currently getting? (Besides only
> having to use one coat of course) 

Daniel

You might want to hold off for a short while.

I was at a trade fair back in Feb in Birmingham (no, not Focus) where 
Epson was touting the new 7600/9600 printers and Hahnemuhle its 
papers to show framing shops/gallery owners the output that was now 
possible with new technology.  At the same stand was a small company 
which showed a new product for coating matt papers which also 
increased dmax and of course protect the print.

The product wasn't available at the time but they took my details.  I 
didn't even inform the list because (a) I wasn't sure if the product 
would hit the market and (b) the whole coating thing seemed to have 
waned in enthusiasm.

A few weeks ago, they sent me some info showing that the product has 
apparently been commercially released.  I've been in the throws of 
moving from the UK to Austria so I don't have the details at hand.  
I'll be back in England for a couple of days next week.  I'll grab 
the flyer then and post the details of it on-list.

However, from what I saw, you can simply brush the coating on without 
leaving brush marks.  The increase in dmax was noticeable but I had 
nothing to compare with.  I'm sure the product could also be used 
with Mayer rods.

K2

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colingruk" 
<cconway@b...> wrote:
> I have not fathomed out how these exchanges work (presumably prints 
> aren't matted for example) and what the commitment is/might be.  
How 
> are prints circulated/distributed? I guess print sizes should be 
> limited. I'm in Greece and also concerned about postal reliability 
> but yes, I'm interested.  
> 
> 
> Colin

Colin

You should have a look through the archives at Tom O'Connel's posts.  
I think the way he has been running his print exchanges is:

1. Both A4 and Letter formats allowed.  I don't think they're matted.
2. Enclose a data sheet.
3. Maximum 10 participants with 3 spare in case any of the first 10 
don't make it for whatever reason.
4. They're first sent by all contributors to a central administrator 
(ie Tom) who then redistributes them back to each of the contributors.
5. Each contributor sends a pre-paid UPS box (or some equivalent), 
inside the one which they used for the initial shipment.  This second 
box is used to ship the prints back to them. 

I had never participated in the past partly due to having to mess 
with pre-paid UPS boxes back from the US etc.

With the European exchange, I propose that contributors outside the 
UK who don't want to or can't feasibly send an extra pre-stamped box 
send cash/UK stamps instead (limited to £ sterling, US$ and Euros) to 
cover return postage.  The exchange co-ordinator can inform them of 
the cost of registered postage to their country.  Their original box 
can be used to return the prints.

Steve ... I don't want to take anything away from you.  However, I 
regularly deal with the 3 currencies mentioned above.  If you find 
dealing with these currencies a hassle, then I'm happy to be the co-
ordinator if you like.  (Or take the currency off your hands for £ at 
normal exchange rates without bank commission).  Let's see how the 
first exchange pans out.

Let's get the ball rolling.  Please send a formal invite on-list with 
a deadline.  Please sign me up.  

K2

On 6/2/03 6:21 AM, "K2 Chittin" <k2lists@...> wrote:

> However, from what I saw, you can simply brush the coating on without
> leaving brush marks.  The increase in dmax was noticeable but I had
> nothing to compare with.  I'm sure the product could also be used
> with Mayer rods.

That would be interesting...there are several commercial products now...but
none work as well as the Hydrocote...and typically they are more expensive.
They all say that they can be brushed or rolled...I suppose they could if
all you were interested in doing was making signs (typically what these
products are market for)...but if you want to make fine art prints...my
hunch is that you will be using a Mayer rod.  In addition if this new
product is thinner...to improve the brushability...it may be very difficult
to use with a Mayer rod...where a certain amount of liquid body is important
for the application process.

Do you know whether this company intended to sell in the US?

Robert

On 6/1/03 3:32 PM, "Daniel Staver" <daniel@...> wrote:

>> clear superpoly <www.hydrocote.com> , which is a water-based
>> aliphatic polyurethane made for preserving wood.  It is
>> "non-yellowing" and relatively non-toxic, but ventilation and
>> gloves are a good idea.  A single #30 Mayer Rod coat of
>> Hydrocote (takes less than 1 minute for an 8x10...start to
>> finish) will product better results than you are currently getting.
> 
> That sounds tempting. I'm definitely going to aquire a rod, and I'll
> consider the hydrocote as well. In what way will the results from the
> Hydrocote be better than what I'm currently getting? (Besides only
> having to use one coat of course)

Well the main advantage...as you say...is being able to do it in a minute
instead of two hours!  In general the other advantage is higher dmax and
significantly lower cost.
 
> I'm using a 2100, so I'll never use sizes larger than 13x19...

Then the Mayer rod will work fine.

>> I've spent a lot of time on this...I've also spent a huge
>> amount of time testing the possibilities of using the new
>> "photo" inks like the Ultrachromes (or MIS's new Ultraquad
>> inks) on RC papers to get similar effects.  The prints you
>> can get from the 2200 using a driver like Ink Jet Control or
>> Imageprint may make coating unnecessary.  Personally, I still
>> like the coated prints because of a complete absence of
>> bronzing...which tends to be a problem with the RC papers.
>> In the end the RC papers will always have some glare problem
>> because there is no, or very little ink laid down in
>> highlights.  We may be able avoid both by spraying these
>> papers with a light coat of Krylon Kamvar varnish or the
>> like.  This workflow may be easier.
> 
> The bronzing is definitely an issue, and I'd like to avoid that
> entirely. I actually quite like the texture of fine-art papers, and
> prefer it to RC papers. That's one of the reasons I'm so excited about
> the coating, I get to keep the texture of the paper while I get the
> D-max of RC papers.

Then you will always be better off coating...I seriously doubt that any one
has plans to come out with a heavy textured gloss paper.
 
> Also, isn't the archivability of all of todays RC papers much lower than
> matte papers? Or is that changing with the inroduction of new papers?

Not necessary.  Traditionally in the inkjet world, this was because the RC
papers were only used with dye inks.  Now you can use 100% pigment inks with
them...so that was the major issue.  Another issue is how much optical
brightner they put in the RC papers...but once again there are comparable
papers for RC and matte if you are willing to tolerate a little bit of
brightnerer (which traditional BW silver printers were).


>> Another interesting possiblity are the emergence of
>> fiber-based gloss inkjet papers...which will begin to enter
>> the market at the end of the summer.
> 
> I must admit I have no clue whatsoever as to what a fiber-based print
> might look like, traditional or otherwise. But it'll be interesting to
> see what it looks like since there's so much talk about it. I've grown
> up with the computer as my my primary tool for creativity, and got into
> photography much later, so skipping all traditional processes and
> jumping straight into the filmscanner/digital/inkjet combo seemed much
> more natural for me. This means I have little or no previous reference
> for what my prints should look like. All I want is for them to look
> really, really good.

Well Fiber-Based Seleneium Toned Silver prints are the archival standard in
the wet darkroom (short of Platinum printing...which is a lower dmax, matte
paper methodology)...so that's what many of us are working towards.  These
papers do have pretty smooth surfaces though...so once again you are
probably better off coating if you really want texture.

Robert

Robert

I don't have the details of the product at hand.  I'll dig them out 
next week when I get back to England for a couple of days.

All I can say at this point is that the product was definitely made 
for coating art matt papers to UV protect, protect from post-print 
flaking when handled excessively and increase dmax.

K2

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "K2 Chittin" 
<k2lists@h...> wrote:

> Colin
> 
> You should have a look through the archives at Tom O'Connel's 
posts.  
> I think the way he has been running his print exchanges is:
> 
> 1. Both A4 and Letter formats allowed.  I don't think they're 
matted.
> 2. Enclose a data sheet.
> 3. Maximum 10 participants with 3 spare in case any of the first 10 
> don't make it for whatever reason.
> 4. They're first sent by all contributors to a central 
administrator 
> (ie Tom) who then redistributes them back to each of the 
contributors.
> 5. Each contributor sends a pre-paid UPS box (or some equivalent), 
> inside the one which they used for the initial shipment.  This 
second 
> box is used to ship the prints back to them. 
> 
> I had never participated in the past partly due to having to mess 
> with pre-paid UPS boxes back from the US etc.
> 
> With the European exchange, I propose that contributors outside the 
> UK who don't want to or can't feasibly send an extra pre-stamped 
box 
> send cash/UK stamps instead (limited to £ sterling, US$ and Euros) 
to 
> cover return postage.  The exchange co-ordinator can inform them of 
> the cost of registered postage to their country.  Their original 
box 
> can be used to return the prints.
> 
> Steve ... I don't want to take anything away from you.  However, I 
> regularly deal with the 3 currencies mentioned above.  If you find 
> dealing with these currencies a hassle, then I'm happy to be the co-
> ordinator if you like.  (Or take the currency off your hands for £ 
at 
> normal exchange rates without bank commission).  Let's see how the 
> first exchange pans out.
> 
> Let's get the ball rolling.  Please send a formal invite on-list 
with 
> a deadline.  Please sign me up.  
> 
> K2

K2,

I'm game.  I'll be on my hols in the UK wef 9 Aug for two weeks.

Colin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colingruk" 
<cconway@b...> wrote:
> K2,
> 
> I'm game.  I'll be on my hols in the UK wef 9 Aug for two weeks.
> 
> Colin

Colin

Most Brits go to Greece for their hols ... :)

K2

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "K2 Chittin" 
<k2lists@h...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colingruk" 
> <cconway@b...> wrote:
> > K2,
> > 
> > I'm game.  I'll be on my hols in the UK wef 9 Aug for two weeks.
> > 
> > Colin
> 
> Colin
> 
> Most Brits go to Greece for their hols ... :)
> 
> K2

Good enough reason to go to the UK! Anyway its too damn hot and humid 
where I am in August!

Colin