Digital BW, The Print

Hi, I just made a sale for one of my images.  The client wants it as 
a 20x30.  SInce I only have an Epson 2200, I obviously can't do this 
one myself.  My local pro place no longer does wet darkroom prints; 
the guy said they output everything digitally but develop it in RA-4 
chemicals, which aren't "real black and white."  It would be $66 for 
the print and an extra $15 if I had them scan it (drum scan) as 
opposed to supplying them with the file  (I admit I have no idea what 
RA-4 is and how it compares to a traditional black and white print).

So, my questions are: (1) Has anyone used RA-4 process for black and 
white enlargements, and what was your impression of the 
quality/tonality, etc?  and (2) Does anyone know of good places I 
could send the negative or scan to for output this large?

Thanks!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> Hi, I just made a sale for one of my images.  The client wants it 
as 
> a 20x30.  SInce I only have an Epson 2200, I obviously can't do 
this 
> one myself.  My local pro place no longer does wet darkroom 
prints; 
> the guy said they output everything digitally but develop it in 
RA-4 
> chemicals, which aren't "real black and white."  It would be $66 
for 
> the print and an extra $15 if I had them scan it (drum scan) as 
> opposed to supplying them with the file  (I admit I have no idea 
what 
> RA-4 is and how it compares to a traditional black and white 
print).
> 
> So, my questions are: (1) Has anyone used RA-4 process for 
black and 
> white enlargements, and what was your impression of the 
> quality/tonality, etc?  and (2) Does anyone know of good places 
I 
> could send the negative or scan to for output this large?
> 
> Thanks!

I think its a Kodak process...check here:
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/Zmanuals/z130.shtml


 	
KODAK Photochemicals

Processing Manuals Index 
Process RA-4 Using KODAK EKTACOLOR RA Chemicals
Publication Z-130 

Use KODAK EKTACOLOR RA Chemicals to process KODAK 
Papers and Materials and other papers designed for Process 
RA-4. 

This manual describes how to use EKTACOLOR RA Chemicals 
in photofinishing labs, professional finishing labs, and minilabs.
 
There is a PDF documents there...a lot of them, must be various 
ways to process.

Ron Norman

Chip,

Your lab is probably either using their own, or sourcing someone else's, Lightjet or 
LED printer. These devices expose color paper (usually Fuji Crystal Archive, max 60 
years before fade), and developing in RA-4 chemistry, which is what is used for C 
prints.  Problems can arise with color crossovers or overall casts if the operators 
aren't savvy.  Ask to see some samples of BW output and look for these problems.

I've emailed you offlist with an alternative...

Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:

> Hi, I just made a sale for one of my images.  The client wants it as 
> a 20x30.  SInce I only have an Epson 2200, I obviously can't do this 
> one myself.  My local pro place no longer does wet darkroom prints; 
> the guy said they output everything digitally but develop it in RA-4 
> chemicals, which aren't "real black and white."  It would be $66 for 
> the print and an extra $15 if I had them scan it (drum scan) as 
> opposed to supplying them with the file  (I admit I have no idea what 
> RA-4 is and how it compares to a traditional black and white print).
> 
> So, my questions are: (1) Has anyone used RA-4 process for black and 
> white enlargements, and what was your impression of the 
> quality/tonality, etc?  and (2) Does anyone know of good places I 
> could send the negative or scan to for output this large?
> 
> Thanks!

There is an outstanding printer in the Denver metro area who can do a print
for you. You can choose from 1 of 3 Piezotone inksets and his prices are
unbeatable. Your 1st 20x30 would be about $99 and subsequent prints discount
to $60 if I interpret his pricing page correctly. He prints all of my work.
His name is Ron Landucci and you can check out his website at
www.infinite-editions.com.

Allyen Wilson

On 6/10/03 11:27 AM, "Ron Norman" <ronnor246@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
>> Hi, I just made a sale for one of my images.  The client wants it
> as 
>> a 20x30.  SInce I only have an Epson 2200, I obviously can't do
> this 
>> one myself.  My local pro place no longer does wet darkroom
> prints; 
>> the guy said they output everything digitally but develop it in
> RA-4 
>> chemicals, which aren't "real black and white."  It would be $66
> for 
>> the print and an extra $15 if I had them scan it (drum scan) as
>> opposed to supplying them with the file  (I admit I have no idea
> what 
>> RA-4 is and how it compares to a traditional black and white
> print).
>> 
>> So, my questions are: (1) Has anyone used RA-4 process for
> black and 
>> white enlargements, and what was your impression of the
>> quality/tonality, etc?  and (2) Does anyone know of good places
> I 
>> could send the negative or scan to for output this large?
>> 
>> Thanks!
> 
> I think its a Kodak process...check here:
> http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/Zmanuals/z130.shtml
> 
> 
> 
> KODAK Photochemicals
> 
> Processing Manuals Index
> Process RA-4 Using KODAK EKTACOLOR RA Chemicals
> Publication Z-130
> 
> Use KODAK EKTACOLOR RA Chemicals to process KODAK
> Papers and Materials and other papers designed for Process
> RA-4. 
> 
> This manual describes how to use EKTACOLOR RA Chemicals
> in photofinishing labs, professional finishing labs, and minilabs.
> 
> There is a PDF documents there...a lot of them, must be various
> ways to process.
> 
> Ron Norman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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> 
>

As a color and black and white lab owner and technician for 30+ years, RA4 
is a color process using color paper.  The lab might be able to filter it 
to near black and white, but it is still on color paper with all of the 
process instability of a color print.  Find you a good black and white 
darkroom or a digital lab.  Don't have a black and white image printed on a 
paper using RA4 chemistry if you want the image to be as good as it should 
be and last as long as it should last.

At 05:12 PM 6/10/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi, I just made a sale for one of my images.  The client wants it as
>a 20x30.  SInce I only have an Epson 2200, I obviously can't do this
>one myself.  My local pro place no longer does wet darkroom prints;
>the guy said they output everything digitally but develop it in RA-4
>chemicals, which aren't "real black and white."  It would be $66 for
>the print and an extra $15 if I had them scan it (drum scan) as
>opposed to supplying them with the file  (I admit I have no idea what
>RA-4 is and how it compares to a traditional black and white print).
>
>So, my questions are: (1) Has anyone used RA-4 process for black and
>white enlargements, and what was your impression of the
>quality/tonality, etc?  and (2) Does anyone know of good places I
>could send the negative or scan to for output this large?
>
>Thanks!
>
>
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Bill




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You might what to consider this option.

Check out this site: http://reedphoto.com/

They have a LightJet 5000 that you can use to image onto CONVENTIONAL
silver/gelatin printing paper.
This is then processed in regular B&W chemistry. As far as I know, this is
the only lab in the US to do this.
Sure, there are plenty of labs that have LightJets that image onto color
material (Fuji Crystal Archive processed in RA-4 chemistry)
but this is different. They use a special Kodak paper specifically designed
for imaging using the LightJet, Chromera, Frountier, etc...

You will need an image to be 300 dpi in resolution at what ever size you
needed printed (20 x 30). They can make a max print size of
50 x 96 inches (per their web site).

I've tried to have B&W (grayscale) prints made using the LightJet 5000 with
color material (RA-4 process) and they just aren't quite
what you would expect a nice silver print to look like. It's been my
observation that B&W RA-4 prints just don't have a really nice, rich
deep black like a conventional silver print has.

You might give this a try. One thing though, they only offer one surface
texture (matt) for the B&W paper.

Good Luck

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman

 -----Original Message-----
From: chipcarterdc [mailto:chipcarterdc@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 10:12 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Suggestions on large black and white output?



  Hi, I just made a sale for one of my images.  The client wants it as
  a 20x30.  SInce I only have an Epson 2200, I obviously can't do this
  one myself.  My local pro place no longer does wet darkroom prints;
  the guy said they output everything digitally but develop it in RA-4
  chemicals, which aren't "real black and white."  It would be $66 for
  the print and an extra $15 if I had them scan it (drum scan) as
  opposed to supplying them with the file  (I admit I have no idea what
  RA-4 is and how it compares to a traditional black and white print).

  So, my questions are: (1) Has anyone used RA-4 process for black and
  white enlargements, and what was your impression of the
  quality/tonality, etc?  and (2) Does anyone know of good places I
  could send the negative or scan to for output this large?

  Thanks!


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor





  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
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  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 6/13/03 11:28 PM, "David R. Spielman" <david@...> wrote:

> I've tried to have B&W (grayscale) prints made using the LightJet 5000 with
> color material (RA-4 process) and they just aren't quite
> what you would expect a nice silver print to look like. It's been my
> observation that B&W RA-4 prints just don't have a really nice, rich
> deep black like a conventional silver print has.

I'm curious about this comment.  Does anyone know what a lightjet/RA-4
process is capable of with respect to dmax on RC papers?  The dmax of silver
papers is typically not as high compared to what you can get with
Ultrachromes on RC papers with photo black. Is it possible that the
Ultrachromes are outperforming the lightjet/RA-4 workflow with respect to
blacks?  I assume that lightjet/RA-4 is still the color gamut winner,
however?

Robert

on 6/14/2003 3:48 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 18
> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 23:28:29 -0700
> From: "David R. Spielman" <david@...>
> Subject: RE: Suggestions on large black and white output?
> 
> You might what to consider this option.
> 
> Check out this site: http://reedphoto.com/
> 
> They have a LightJet 5000 that you can use to image onto CONVENTIONAL
> silver/gelatin printing paper.


I checked it out.  RC paper only. Not Conventional silver/gelatin printing
paper.


I while ago there was a post about a company in Europe that converted an
enlarger to enlarge digital files.  Does anyone know of a lab that uses this
enlarger?





-Bruce

Visit my website at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~smthopr

Robert,

FWIW, I found an area at density 2.2 in a recent gloss LightJet I had done.  It was NOT 
an area that was completely without detail, so I assume the actual dMax is greater.  
This puts it up pretty high, but is not conclusive...

Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

> I'm curious about this comment.  Does anyone know what a lightjet/RA-4
> process is capable of with respect to dmax on RC papers?  The dmax of silver
> papers is typically not as high compared to what you can get with
> Ultrachromes on RC papers with photo black. Is it possible that the
> Ultrachromes are outperforming the lightjet/RA-4 workflow with respect to
> blacks?  I assume that lightjet/RA-4 is still the color gamut winner,
> however?
> 
> Robert

Bruce,

By "Conventional" silver/gelatin printing paper I meant, "NOT RA-4
processed"

Both RC paper and fiber paper use a silver/gelatin emulation, and are thus
"conventional" in that regard.

With regard to the other point you made about converted enlargers, check out
the following link, I think it's what you
are looking for:
http://www.odyssey-sales.co.uk/products/browse.asp?range=55

Best Regards,

David R. Spielman

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bruce [mailto:smthopr@...]
  Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:56 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] RE: Suggestions on large black and white output?


  on 6/14/2003 3:48 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

  > Message: 18
  > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 23:28:29 -0700
  > From: "David R. Spielman" <david@...>
  > Subject: RE: Suggestions on large black and white output?
  >
  > You might what to consider this option.
  >
  > Check out this site: http://reedphoto.com/
  >
  > They have a LightJet 5000 that you can use to image onto CONVENTIONAL
  > silver/gelatin printing paper.


  I checked it out.  RC paper only. Not Conventional silver/gelatin printing
  paper.


  I while ago there was a post about a company in Europe that converted an
  enlarger to enlarge digital files.  Does anyone know of a lab that uses
this
  enlarger?





  -Bruce

  Visit my website at:
  http://home.earthlink.net/~smthopr


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor





  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 6/15/2003 3:40 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:50:25 -0700
> From: "David R. Spielman" <david@...>
> Subject: RE: RE: Suggestions on large black and white output?
> 
> Bruce,
> 
> By "Conventional" silver/gelatin printing paper I meant, "NOT RA-4
> processed"
> 
> Both RC paper and fiber paper use a silver/gelatin emulation, and are thus
> "conventional" in that regard.
> 
> With regard to the other point you made about converted enlargers, check out
> the following link, I think it's what you
> are looking for:
> http://www.odyssey-sales.co.uk/products/browse.asp?range=55
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> David R. Spielman


Thanks David.  I wrote to them about 6 months ago and they hadn't sold any
yet.  I think the $30,000 price had something to do with it.

So I guess nobody knows a lab that uses this device then?
 
-Bruce

Visit my website at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~smthopr

Bruce,

Check out the followig site: http://reedphoto.com/

They have a LightJet 5000 that images onto conventional B&W material.
Best Regards,

David R. Spielman

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce [mailto:smthopr@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 10:43 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] RE: Suggestions on large black and white output?



  on 6/15/2003 3:40 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

  > Message: 14
  > Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:50:25 -0700
  > From: "David R. Spielman" <david@...>
  > Subject: RE: RE: Suggestions on large black and white output?
  >
  > Bruce,
  >
  > By "Conventional" silver/gelatin printing paper I meant, "NOT RA-4
  > processed"
  >
  > Both RC paper and fiber paper use a silver/gelatin emulation, and are
thus
  > "conventional" in that regard.
  >
  > With regard to the other point you made about converted enlargers, check
out
  > the following link, I think it's what you
  > are looking for:
  > http://www.odyssey-sales.co.uk/products/browse.asp?range=55
  >
  > Best Regards,
  >
  > David R. Spielman


  Thanks David.  I wrote to them about 6 months ago and they hadn't sold any
  yet.  I think the $30,000 price had something to do with it.

  So I guess nobody knows a lab that uses this device then?

  -Bruce

  Visit my website at:
  http://home.earthlink.net/~smthopr


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

West Coast Imaging (westcoastimaging.com (no www)) can do it on an Epson 
printer, either with Ultrachrome or quad tone.  There is at least one B&W lab in 
San Diego that can do it, on Ilford silver I think.  I would guess that most major 
cities have a custom  B&W lab that can do it, and there are lots of 9600's 
around.  Depends on where you are.  

I saw a bunch of beautiful B&W Ultrachrome prints yesterday.

Bill