Digital BW, The Print

Well, I thought it would not be that much harder than 35mm film..

I purchased a Jobo tank, sacrificed a roll of Tmax for practice and 
attempted to load a reel. After 6 or 7 times in daylight, I have given 
up: not once could I get the film to properly spiral inward. After 
about one revolution, the innermost edge left the frame, and 
everything just jammed.

With what brand, praytell, of developing tank do I have a chance of 
executing a proper film load ? I was hoping to do two rolls at once- 
thats a real joke at this point. I am thinking the thick Tmax film may 
be the source of the difficulty ??

TIA !

Alex,
Orlando Fl

Hi,

	I use Jobo reels for my 120 work.  The trick, at least for me is to 
lightly grasp the film with your left thumb as you're winding the film 
in.  It gives you just enough extra force to make the film go through.  
The other thing is to push in a good 4" of roll into the take-up before 
starting the winding.  Of course, YMMV.

Britt

In a message dated 7/10/2003 7:27:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
a_pettit_jr@... writes:

> Well, I thought it would not be that much harder than 35mm film..
> 
> I purchased a Jobo tank, sacrificed a roll of Tmax for practice and 
> attempted to load a reel. After 6 or 7 times in daylight, I have given 
> up: not once could I get the film to properly spiral inward. After 
> about one revolution, the innermost edge left the frame, and 
> everything just jammed.
> 

i honestly feel that loading MF film is WAY easier than 35mm

what you have to do is practice in the light, with an old roll of
film, until you become proficient at it, and then hope for the 
best when you are in the darkroom

i use an old Paterson Tank, by the way

good luck!
k-a-y


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't have experience with the JOBO reels, Alex.   But I developed 120 
film successfully for 30+ years using Paterson tanks and reels, and I'll 
bet the reel designs are similar.  The most important step in loading the 
Paterson reels was to make a tiny 45 degree cut across the leading corners 
of the film before you try to load it.  It doesn't have to be exact, and it 
was no trick to do in the dark - you just have to take that point away from 
the leading edge of the film.

Actually, the stiffer Tmax film was probably easier to load than some of 
the thinner emulsions, because remember you're trying to "push a 
string."   One  other factor - if you have a Hasselblad or some other 
camera that puts film through a reverse curl in the film path, it may help 
to let the film sit on the spool overnight after you remove it from the 
camera, to get rid of any "memory" that might try to curl the film to the 
outside of the developing reel.  I don't frankly remember how big a problem 
that was with my  Hasselblads, as I haven't used them for a long time, but 
it was a serious problem with Leica rangefinders and pre-autoload Nikons 
whose takeup spools wound the film emulsion side out.  If most of the roll 
had been sitting on the takeup spool in the camera for a while, it might 
take a couple of days sitting in the canister after rewind before the film 
recovered its normal inward curl, and trying to load film that had any 
outward curl was virtually impossible with the edge loading reels like 
Paterson and Jobo.

Paterson tanks will not (easily) load two 120 films on a single reel.  They 
will take 220 film, although that does take some finesse as you get toward 
the end of the film strip - that's a really long string you're trying to push.

Try knocking off the leading corners of the film first, and then try the 
Jobo reels again.  I would hope that's all it takes.

Cheers,
Kip

At 7/10/2003 11:25 PM +0000, you wrote:

>Well, I thought it would not be that much harder than 35mm film..
>
>I purchased a Jobo tank, sacrificed a roll of Tmax for practice and
>attempted to load a reel. After 6 or 7 times in daylight, I have given
>up: not once could I get the film to properly spiral inward. After
>about one revolution, the innermost edge left the frame, and
>everything just jammed.
>
>With what brand, praytell, of developing tank do I have a chance of
>executing a proper film load ? I was hoping to do two rolls at once-
>thats a real joke at this point. I am thinking the thick Tmax film may
>be the source of the difficulty ??
>
>TIA !
>
>Alex,
>Orlando Fl

Hi Britt,
It seems as if the reels are 1/8" too wide and are causing
bad film feeds. I am one for twelve attempts - in daylight with my 
eyes open.... ( I inadvertently purchased a second reel: did not know 
one was in the tank - both are of identical construction )


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Britt Park 
<britt@s...> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 	I use Jobo reels for my 120 work.  The trick, at least for me 
is to 
> lightly grasp the film with your left thumb as you're winding the 
film 
> in.  It gives you just enough extra force to make the film go 
through.  
> The other thing is to push in a good 4" of roll into the take-up 
before 

> starting the winding.  Of course, YMMV.
> 
> Britt

Hi,

	I was a bit inaccurate.  It's the right thumb that should supply a  
slight pressure.  My reels seem to be about 3/32" wider than the film,  
but it doesn't affect loading for me.  I urge you to try the  
prethreading with about 4 inches of film.  The film is so wiggly, in  
comparison to 35mm that it has a tendency to come out of the track if  
you don't already have enough film in the track before you start  
winding.

Cheers,

Britt

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 05:02 PM, B. Alex Pettit Jr. wrote:

> Hi Britt,
> It seems as if the reels are 1/8" too wide and are causing
> bad film feeds. I am one for twelve attempts - in daylight with my
> eyes open.... ( I inadvertently purchased a second reel: did not know
> one was in the tank - both are of identical construction )
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Britt Park
> <britt@s...> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> 	I use Jobo reels for my 120 work.  The trick, at least for me
> is to
>> lightly grasp the film with your left thumb as you're winding the
> film
>> in.  It gives you just enough extra force to make the film go
> through.
>> The other thing is to push in a good 4" of roll into the take-up
> before
>> starting the winding.  Of course, YMMV.
>>
>> Britt
>
>
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I found that the diagonal snips just made leading edge tracking worse 
: the film kept spiraling inward.

So, I put a sharp reverse crease outward on the film's leading edge -
the result : consistently good tracking. If I can find the entry 
slots, I think I can do an effective load in the dark...

Thanks to All,

Alex

Alex, I'll second this.  I used stainless steel 120 reels for years, but
finally went over to Jobo.  They are much easier--at least for me.

I do the same trick with cutting the leading corners off at about 45
degree angles as Kip does with his Paterson.  I don't think the angle is
critical--you just want a taper so the leading corners don't dig the
real and catch.  Also, I pull the film in about 4" too, then it winds on
in fine.  

I've found that not all film is the same width.  Amazing, but true in my
experience.  Some film I can actually push all the way into the reel
once I have it going.  Other films I have to be more careful with as
they tend to drag some.

With the tapered leading corners, I've successfully done 2 120 rolls on
a single 120/220 Jobo reel.

Keep trying!  Call Jobo if you continue to have difficulty.  Their
support is very good.


kenb

____________________
Ken Brookner
kenb@...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kip Babington [mailto:cbabing3@...] 
> 
> I don't have experience with the JOBO reels, Alex.   But I 
> developed 120 
> film successfully for 30+ years using Paterson tanks and 
> reels, and I'll 
> bet the reel designs are similar.  The most important step in 
> loading the 
> Paterson reels was to make a tiny 45 degree cut across the 
> leading corners 
> of the film before you try to load it.  It doesn't have to be 
> exact, and it 
> was no trick to do in the dark - you just have to take that 
> point away from 
> the leading edge of the film.

Alex, the Jobo and Patterson plastic reels are OK.  You will load much more
easily if you unroll the 120 film and start loading from the end near the
spool.  Snipping a corner off each square end and being sure you have a few
inches of film pulled through the gate will help, as will keeping the edge
of your thumbs lightly on the film as you wind.  The thickness of the film
isn't an issue.  As you probably know, you'll want to fill the tank with
developer and dunk the reels in all at once, instead of trying to fill the
tank with developer after the reels are in and the lid is on, esp if you
have 2-3 reels.  Hope this helps.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "B. Alex Pettit Jr." <a_pettit_jr@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:25 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] way OT : 120 film tanks


> Well, I thought it would not be that much harder than 35mm film..
>
> I purchased a Jobo tank, sacrificed a roll of Tmax for practice and
> attempted to load a reel. After 6 or 7 times in daylight, I have given
> up: not once could I get the film to properly spiral inward. After
> about one revolution, the innermost edge left the frame, and
> everything just jammed.
>
> With what brand, praytell, of developing tank do I have a chance of
> executing a proper film load ? I was hoping to do two rolls at once-
> thats a real joke at this point. I am thinking the thick Tmax film may
> be the source of the difficulty ??
>
> TIA !
>
> Alex,
> Orlando Fl
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I have been doing photography since 1966 and have been teaching it since the early 70's. I have used just about every tank and film reel on the market for every size of film.  My opinion is that any plastic film reel with moving parts has a tendency to push the film out of the grooves. You might be able to minimize this by turning the reel halves little by little instead of full moves back and forth. However, much is dependent on the film curl and how dry it is in your area. If the film has a tight curl and the atmosphereis dry, the film has a tendency to stay tightly curled and jump out of the grooves. One plastic tank, and probably the cheapest one, is the Star-D. It holds one roll at a time and is about 4 inches tall. The reel is adjustable for 35mm up to 120. Anyway, that was the first reel that I used for 120 and it seems to be the best. The key is that the grooves are bigger and therefore the film does not jump out easily. I have tried Paterson and Jobo reels and o
thers with various degrees of success. 
      However, my real preference is for stainless steel. My father was a professional back in the 50's and used them.  I was forced to do so too. I still use them. They have no moving parts and you can get tanks that take many at a time. My largest holds four reels. If you have another batch of film to develop, just wipe them off with a paper towel. Many plastic reels must be meticulously dried to use them again as film can  stick to some as it is forced through the groove. With stainless, you start in the center and wind it on to the outside. This takes practice, but it is like riding a bike. Once you get it, you have the skill for life. I remember practicing for about two hours the first time I did it. Most of my college students have gotten the skill down within a half hour. Anyway, it is something to consider. Yo can get second hand tanks and reels on eBay very reasonably. 
       If you have a jobo motor base for agitating film du
ring film developing, you will have to get Jobo film reels and tanks. They obviously work or they would not have sold so many. 

Still stainless steel is preferred by many labs for good reason.

Russ Martin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One advice was a very important one - it worked the best for me (for 20 
something years)
to unroll the film from the spool, remove the tape mounting it to the 
paper lead and cut the
corners.  But - here is the trick.  You have to feel the corners with 
your fingers and cut ONLY
between 1/16 to 1/8 inch (the smaller the better)  only to make the edge 
smooth - not
catching the elements of the reel.  If you cut more it will jump the 
track, since the film is
tightly rolled.  I use Paterson tanks with the plastic reels.  You have 
to dry the reels thoroughly,
with the drier, and cool them afterwards.  Any moisture left on the 
reels will (for sure)  stop
the film from getting in place, and the edge of the film will swell 
making it difficult afterwards.
I would recommend buying as many reels as you plan to develop at one 
time, so they dry
freely afterwards.
Good luck.
Jack

_________________________________________________
Jack M Kucy
JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
917-991-2096     jmk@...
Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org)
_________________________________________________
...a riveder le stelle




B. Alex Pettit Jr. wrote:

> Well, I thought it would not be that much harder than 35mm film..
>
> I purchased a Jobo tank, sacrificed a roll of Tmax for practice and
> attempted to load a reel. After 6 or 7 times in daylight, I have given
> up: not once could I get the film to properly spiral inward. After
> about one revolution, the innermost edge left the frame, and
> everything just jammed.
>
> With what brand, praytell, of developing tank do I have a chance of
> executing a proper film load ? I was hoping to do two rolls at once-
> thats a real joke at this point. I am thinking the thick Tmax film may
> be the source of the difficulty ??
>
> TIA !
>
> Alex,
> Orlando Fl




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,

The idea on the snipped edges seems to work : only if they are very 
small. Otherwise, they seem to guarantee misguiding.
I am going to try loading from the leading edge in order to not have 
the problem with loose film everywhere, although feeding the edge with 
the tape as reinforcement seems to be the better.  The best tweak I've 
tried is back bending the leading edge so that it does not have the 
tendency to curl inward.

I also plan to go to the photo shop tomorrow and test load some 
stainless reels - I had learned to use them quite successfully with 
35mm. As I recall, it was fairly easy to feel an error and correct.
I have close eyed loaded this plastic a few times and really gotten a 
mess !

Thanks Again as always for the abundant information from the wealth of 
knowledge and expertise of the members of This Group !


Best,
Alex

I'm surprised you're having so much trouble, are you sure there's
nothing wrong with your reels? I just developed my own films for the
first time last month, so I'm really new at this. After sacrificing a
single roll of 120 film I managed to get it right and can easily load
them in the dark every time - And I don't cut the corners or use tape or
anything. I'm mostly using Tri-X and TMAX films and plastic Paterson
reels.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Alex,
Yeah, try stainless. All of this dialog  is a bit humorous if you step back and look at it. It is kind of like people discussing the best way to ride a bike and what bike is best, etc. Believe me, this is not brain surgery. Just about anyone can do this. However regarding plastic.  Just because plastic reels work well for 35mm, does not mean that they are best for 120. The width and thickness of the film combined with the strong curl and thin plastic edges of he reel make it very difficult to push it on from the outside. Stainless is easy once  you get the knack.
      By the way. This is how I load them. Separate the film from the paper backing and remove the tape at the end. Hold the rolled up film in the palm of your  right hand and grasp the edges of the end with your thumb and first finger. Hold the reel in your left hand but first find the prongs on the outside and make sure that they are to the right. (I do this before truning off the lights) Now reach around und
er the reel while holding it with your hand that you are palming the film with  ( Sounds complicated but isn't) and push the clip down and insert the end of the film into it. With your right hand unroll the film while your first finger and thumb stay on the outside edges of the reel. (This is important as they act as guides to line up the film correctly. Your left hand turns the reel counter clockwise and the first finger of your  left hand should push down on the back side of the film gently to hold it in place. This while it it unrolling in your right palm.  If the film pulls to one side or the other, it means that you jumped track and you must unwind a little to get back on track. When you get to the end, make sure that the film end is in the track. That's it!   Sounds complicated when described, but it is intuitive after you do it a few times. THE MAIN TRICK IS TO KEEP YOUR FINGERS ON THE REEL EDGES. It can't be done consistently if you don't.

good luck,
Russ Martin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mfaphoto@... wrote:

>     I have been doing photography since 1966 and have been teaching it since the early 70's. I have used just about every tank and film reel on the market for every size of film.  My opinion is that any plastic film reel with moving parts has a tendency to push the film out of the grooves. You might be able to minimize this by turning the reel halves little by little instead of full moves back and forth. However, much is dependent on the film curl and how dry it is in your area. If the film has a tight curl and the atmosphereis dry, the film has a tendency to stay tightly curled and jump out of the grooves. One plastic tank, and probably the cheapest one, is the Star-D. It holds one roll at a time and is about 4 inches tall. The reel is adjustable for 35mm up to 120. Anyway, that was the first reel that I used for 120 and it seems to be the best. The key is that the grooves are bigger and therefore the film does not jump out easily. I have tried Paterson and Jobo reels and o
>thers with various degrees of success. 
>
There are some tricks with the plastic reels to should almost eliminate 
this problem. First make sure they are dry. Use a hair dried on them for 
about 30 seconds to minimize any mosture. Next when you cut the film off 
the spool, cut the corners of the film at a 45 degree angle so there is 
no edge to catch. This cut shoud be small - no more than 1/4 of an inch. 
It is the 90 degree edges that catch the supports between the grooves. 
Using those two simple "tricks" I have pretty much eliminated this problem.

Truman

Hello Alex. I own a pro B&W lab in Santa Monica. I have been using the Jobo 
reels for 12 years with out one time that I can remember of having trouble 
loading the reels. I can easily load 2 120 rolls of film on one reel and its easy 
to load a single roll of 120 film also. Occasionally I will have the film get 
cought on the edge of the reel during loading and a gentle tap on the side of 
the reel takes care of that problem. I would recommend the jobo reels over any 
other reel around. The one problem that you will find is that after a while 
of use the reels become coated with scum from the developing process. I found 
that soaking the reels in Cibachrome bleach from the P3 cibachrome kit 
completely dissolves this off the reels and leaves the reels completely clean. I do 
wash the reels well after the bleach soak and I have never had any problems with 
this method of cleaning the reels. I tried other methods of cleaning the 
reels and nothing works better then the Cibachrome bleach. Be careful when using 
the bleach because it has a lot of sulfuric acid in it. When I am done with the 
bleach I nutralize it with baking soda. I hope that this information is a 
help to you. Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Steve,

Well, I went to the local shop and test loaded a Patterson split 
plastic reel - Amazingly easy compared to the Jobo. The reel is 
uniformly round. With large film entry channels, locating them by 
touch is much more simple than the Jobo. Plus, they have two small 
ball bearings just beyond the entry point that replaces the thumb 
feeding needed in the Jobo. Even with an untouched, very curled edge, 
the film loaded repeatedly without an error. The reel clearance is 
closer than the Jobo. And on closer inspection, the spokes on the Jobo 
are square - that is what was catching the leading edge of the film 
and causing a misspool. The inner sides of the spokes on the Patterson 
reelo have chamfers to assist in guiding the film past them. Subtile, 
but significant differences IMO.

I just successfully developed two 120 reels in a Patterson tank. I had 
to reload once just after starting.

For sale : one unused Jobo single reel tank, three reels : $25 
shipped.

Best,
Alex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, deandadin@a... 
wrote:
> Hello Alex. I own a pro B&W lab in Santa Monica. I have been using 
the Jobo 
> reels for 12 years with out one time that I can remember of having 
trouble 
> loading the reels.

Alex,

Will the Patterson reels work in a Jobo tank?

Robert

On Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 01:38 PM, B. Alex Pettit Jr. wrote:

> I just successfully developed two 120 reels in a Patterson tank. I had
> to reload once just after starting.
>
> For sale : one unused Jobo single reel tank, three reels : $25
> shipped.

Of course not ....

The Patterson reels are slightly larger in diameter.

Alex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:

> Alex,
> 
> Will the Patterson reels work in a Jobo tank?
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
>

I recently aquired a Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop with a 1920x1200
widescreen LCD. I've sold my CRT only Spyder and plan to find an LCD
compatible calibration tool for around $300 that I can use instead.
Another Spyder is an option of course, but I see that Gretag Macbeth and
Monacosys both have offerings that are in the same price range.

Do any of you have experience with any of these? I'm interested in both
BW and color performance. The LCD screen shows BW pictures very blue,
and with blown highlights, so it's not very usable for precision work in
its current state.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel 
Staver" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> I recently aquired a Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop with a 1920x1200
> widescreen LCD. I've sold my CRT only Spyder and plan to find 
an LCD
> compatible calibration tool for around $300 that I can use 
instead.
> Another Spyder is an option of course, but I see that Gretag 
Macbeth and
> Monacosys both have offerings that are in the same price 
range.
> 
> Do any of you have experience with any of these? I'm interested 
in both
> BW and color performance. The LCD screen shows BW 
pictures very blue,
> and with blown highlights, so it's not very usable for precision 
work in
> its current state.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no


Daniel.
I´m using the new GretagMacbeth EyeOne (i1) DISPLAY for 
monitor calibration. It iworks fine and easy for  CRTs and LCDs.
Best of all, it comes with a $ 200 voucher for upgrading, which is 
good until Dez 31 03. If you will upgrade you can keep the i1 
Monitor hard- and software (or sell it on ebay).
Bernd

Is there any point in calibrating a laptop lcd? Adjust the viewing angle and everything 
about the display changes...at least on mine.

Daniel:

I just purchased the Optical/Spider combo and it works well with both 
CRT and LCD - I paid $298 delivered.  I haven't seen a laptop yet 
that I would do (acceptable) color management with including the G4, 
so you might want to find someone in your area with a spider/software 
to try prior to purchasing.

Duncan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> I recently aquired a Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop with a 1920x1200
> widescreen LCD. I've sold my CRT only Spyder and plan to find an LCD
> compatible calibration tool for around $300 that I can use instead.
> Another Spyder is an option of course, but I see that Gretag 
Macbeth and
> Monacosys both have offerings that are in the same price range.
> 
> Do any of you have experience with any of these? I'm interested in 
both
> BW and color performance. The LCD screen shows BW pictures very 
blue,
> and with blown highlights, so it's not very usable for precision 
work in

> its current state.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

The Inspiron Daniel has is on my short list of laptops which I think 
could both displace my aging desktop and travel with the digital SLR 
I also don't have yet.

But I was thinking - I can't tell whether Daniel is - of having a 
larger "image display" at home. There a laptop's screen could, if 
it's big enough, become a (Photoshop) "palette display". But when the 
image display is in use, presumably with one of the profiles made for 
it, I think I know that any palette display would have to use the 
same, image-display profile? In its role as a traveling companion for 
a digital camera, the laptop would instead, I assume, use a profile 
made for the laptop. And, again if it's big enough, do Photoshop work 
as well as store images downloaded from the digital camera's memory 
card/disk.

If the operating systems do restrict us, as I think I've been told, 
to one profile at a time, then I'm wondering how this might affect 
our display choices and our colorimeter+software choices. For 
example, is the video on the Apple PowerBooks enough like that on the 
Apple Cinema displays for a combination of the two to have a 
strategic advantage over a mix-and-match system? Or: does a need for 
a LCD-capable colorimeter for the laptop make the Sony Artisan, which 
comes with its own CRT colorimeter, less of a bargain as an image 
display due to LCD-capable colorimeters being (I think) also 
CRT-capable?

Life might be simpler with a laptop large enough and robust enough to 
do everything on. And I'm curious to know whether Daniel and others 
think the new wide-screen 15-inch or 17-inch laptops are big enough 
and otherwise appropriate for that. For large images, I suppose not, 
but I can't print large anyway, for lack of room for mounting and 
matting and framing prints larger than about 8x12 or 11x14.
--
Sam

>I recently aquired a Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop with a 1920x1200
>widescreen LCD. I've sold my CRT only Spyder and plan to find an LCD
>compatible calibration tool for around $300 that I can use instead.
>Another Spyder is an option of course, but I see that Gretag Macbeth and
>Monacosys both have offerings that are in the same price range.
>
>Do any of you have experience with any of these? I'm interested in both
>BW and color performance. The LCD screen shows BW pictures very blue,
>and with blown highlights, so it's not very usable for precision work in
>its current state.
>
>--
>Daniel Staver
>http://daniel.staver.no

I think the 15" widescreen on the Inspiron is big enough to satisfy many
users, especially when you consider the high resolution of 1920x1200
which it uses. Text and graphics are incredibly sharp, clearly superior
to CRT screens, and with calibration I believe it could be very nice for
color work as well.

I normally use a 24" Sony which I like very much, so I'm not willing to
replace that one just, but I also find the LCD good enough for me to
work comfortably for extended periods of time without missing my bigger
CRT. I just worked out of the office for three days doing some design
jobs in Photoshop and Illustrator and I didn't feel the laptop was
inferior in any way, I just forgot it was there and did my work.

Colors on the LCD are more unstable. As it was mentioned here earlier
the colors change slightly depending on the viewing angle. The Inspiron
is very good in this regard however, even at close to 90 degree angles
you can still see everything on the screen without badly distorted
colors. I believe there is definitely a point to calibrating it. I don't
expect the calibrator to work magic on the screen, but I hope the colors
will get much closer to what they should be than what I get now.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Daniel; I recently borrowed and tested the Monaco Optix unit, bring 
a long-time Monaco user. I don't have an LCD to try it on, but it 
worked well on my CRT, better than the original Monaco unit. The 2.5 
version of EZColor is also working better than earlier versions, and 
is worth upgrading to if you haven't done so already.

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> I think the 15" widescreen on the Inspiron is big enough to 
satisfy many
> users, especially when you consider the high resolution of 
1920x1200
> which it uses. Text and graphics are incredibly sharp, clearly 
superior
> to CRT screens, and with calibration I believe it could be very 
nice for
> color work as well.
> 
> I normally use a 24" Sony which I like very much, so I'm not 
willing to
> replace that one just, but I also find the LCD good enough for me 
to
> work comfortably for extended periods of time without missing my 
bigger
> CRT. I just worked out of the office for three days doing some 
design
> jobs in Photoshop and Illustrator and I didn't feel the laptop was
> inferior in any way, I just forgot it was there and did my work.
> 
> Colors on the LCD are more unstable. As it was mentioned here 
earlier
> the colors change slightly depending on the viewing angle. The 
Inspiron
> is very good in this regard however, even at close to 90 degree 
angles
> you can still see everything on the screen without badly distorted
> colors. I believe there is definitely a point to calibrating it. I 
don't
> expect the calibrator to work magic on the screen, but I hope the 
colors

> will get much closer to what they should be than what I get now.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

>I've sold my CRT only Spyder and plan to find an LCD
> compatible calibration tool for around $300 that I can use instead.
> Another Spyder is an option of course, but I see that Gretag 
Macbeth and
> Monacosys both have offerings that are in the same price range. 
> Do any of you have experience with any of these? 


I have used the Spyder that is compatible with a LCD.  I have a 
Viewsonic LCD monitor.  The calibration works very well except for 
the deepest shadows, where there is a little posterization.  I 
haven't tried modifying the curves to correct this.  I use my monitor 
for both color and B&W.

Chris

Hi Daniel,

According to the folks at Dry Creek Photo 
(http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor_calibration.htm) the 
bang-for-the-buck product these days is the Greytag Macbeth EyeOne 
Display colorimeter(about $240USD).

I've used both the Spyder/PhotoCal and the EyeOne Display and found 
the EyeOne profile significantly "better" on my CRT ("better" being 
a very subjective measure, but the reds and greens are tonally 
smoother and slightly more saturated). I also used it to profile my 
LCD display, but never had another profile to compare it to.

I'm not sure if this post was helpful, but at a minimum, check out 
the URL above -- they list some very specific results of testing 
several of the available colorimeter and spectrophotometer products.

Regards,
Peter.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> I recently aquired a Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop with a 1920x1200
> widescreen LCD. I've sold my CRT only Spyder and plan to find an 
LCD
> compatible calibration tool for around $300 that I can use instead.
> Another Spyder is an option of course, but I see that Gretag 
Macbeth and
> Monacosys both have offerings that are in the same price range.
> 
> Do any of you have experience with any of these? I'm interested in 
both
> BW and color performance. The LCD screen shows BW pictures very 
blue,
> and with blown highlights, so it's not very usable for precision 
work in

> its current state.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

Thanks to all of you for your input!

I've pretty much decided on the Gretag Macbeth Eye-One Display. It's
about the same price as a Spyder with PhotoCal here, so if it's really
that much more accurate then it sounds like better value.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no