Digital BW, The Print

Let me see if I can do this.  On the occassions that I actually do an 
experiment that I pay attention enough to, to record those results, I 
will put it here as such thread.  These may be few and far between 
FWIW.

Tonight I printed on "Espon Photo Quality Gloss Paper".  Started with 
a greyscale scan.

Print #1 Printed in Greyscale (therefore no other driver available in 
the "space" settings) and it had a distinct green cast to it.

Print #2 ran unsharp mask (oops, forgot on the first one), converted 
the file to RGB and printed using Cone EP30EP_EsponPQGP ICC profile - 
is a fairly true neutral.

That profile I believe is set for Espon inks, not Lysonic but it's 
the closest to monitor match I have yet.  I should note that the 
instructions say to print in color and that the driver I mentioned, I 
think, is not for "Epson Photo Paper".

Also INTERESTING that there is no visual cue from the monitor when 
switching between greyscale and RGB if the original scan was in 
greyscale or the color information has been discarded.

FWIW.
Cleavis in AZ.

Been laughing at metamerasims-whatever.  
Thinking it should be meta-miranda rights.  
My prints have the right to hang on the wall.  
They have the right to look different under different lights.  
They have the right to acting different in other environments.
They have the right to be influenced by paper, framing/glazing and 
illumination.  They have the right...

Cleavis,

Since the Lysonic E inks were made to be a direct replacement for the 
Epson inks, your results are similat to others printing B&W with the 
Epson inks. As noticed with your print #1 it can be difficult to get 
a truly neutral B&W print with color inks. The use of a good color 
profile like you did with #2 goes a long way to improving results. As 
odd as it may sound, I think you need better color management to 
print neutral B&W with color inks than you do for printing color. 
That neutral point is very revealing of slight color imbalances.

If you convert a grayscale image to RGB, exactly the same data is 
placed in each of the three channels and the on screen image does not 
change. Remember you are viewing your grayscale on an RGB monitor so 
the graphics card in your computer is essentially doing the same 
thing when you are in grayscale.

Martin

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., lyonscox@m... wrote:
> Let me see if I can do this.  On the occassions that I actually do 
an 
> experiment that I pay attention enough to, to record those results, 
I 
> will put it here as such thread.  These may be few and far between 
> FWIW.
> 
> Tonight I printed on "Espon Photo Quality Gloss Paper".  Started 
with 
> a greyscale scan.
> 
> Print #1 Printed in Greyscale (therefore no other driver available 
in 
> the "space" settings) and it had a distinct green cast to it.
> 
> Print #2 ran unsharp mask (oops, forgot on the first one), 
converted 
> the file to RGB and printed using Cone EP30EP_EsponPQGP ICC 
profile - 
> is a fairly true neutral.
> 
> That profile I believe is set for Espon inks, not Lysonic but it's 
> the closest to monitor match I have yet.  I should note that the 
> instructions say to print in color and that the driver I mentioned, 
I 

> think, is not for "Epson Photo Paper".
> 
> Also INTERESTING that there is no visual cue from the monitor when 
> switching between greyscale and RGB if the original scan was in 
> greyscale or the color information has been discarded.
> 
> FWIW.
> Cleavis in AZ.
> 
> Been laughing at metamerasims-whatever.  
> Thinking it should be meta-miranda rights.  
> My prints have the right to hang on the wall.  
> They have the right to look different under different lights.  
> They have the right to acting different in other environments.
> They have the right to be influenced by paper, framing/glazing and 
> illumination.  They have the right...

Martin, 

If I may clarify.
Print #1. Photoshop in Greyscale/Printer space greyscale/Printer 
Software color = green cast.
Print #2 Photoshop in RGB/Printer space Cone's Epson driver/Printer 
Software color = fairly, if not perfectly neutral in my book.

Just did 
Print #3 Photoshop in Greyscale/Printer space greyscale (it's 
default, no other option)Printer software had color on = print has 
green cast
Print #4 Photoshop in Greyscale/Printer space greyscale/Printer 
software set to black = neutral to cool print.

I liked RGB/specified driver/color on as best neutral.  Martin, in 
our case here it meant to GET a neutral I HAD to use color inks.

FWIW
Cleavis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Cleavis,
> 
> Since the Lysonic E inks were made to be a direct replacement for 
the Epson inks, your results are similat to others printing B&W with 
the Epson inks. As noticed with your print #1 it can be difficult to 
get a truly neutral B&W print with color inks. The use of a good 
color profile like you did with #2 goes a long way to improving 
results. As odd as it may sound, I think you need better color 
management to 
print neutral B&W with color inks than you do for printing color. 
That neutral point is very revealing of slight color imbalances.

> 
> 
> Martin
>

Cleavis,

You have a point about a very neutral print. All the quad inks are 
going to have some tone to them. The MIS VM gives you a lot of 
adjustment and gets very close. If you really want dead neutral the 
best way is to just print with the black ink and make a mono-ink 
print. This works really well for grainy negs but not so well with 
larger, fine grain negs.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., lyonscox@m... wrote:
> Martin, 
> 
> If I may clarify.
> Print #1. Photoshop in Greyscale/Printer space greyscale/Printer 
> Software color = green cast.
> Print #2 Photoshop in RGB/Printer space Cone's Epson driver/Printer 
> Software color = fairly, if not perfectly neutral in my book.
> 
> Just did 
> Print #3 Photoshop in Greyscale/Printer space greyscale (it's 
> default, no other option)Printer software had color on = print has 
> green cast
> Print #4 Photoshop in Greyscale/Printer space greyscale/Printer 
> software set to black = neutral to cool print.
> 
> I liked RGB/specified driver/color on as best neutral.  Martin, in 
> our case here it meant to GET a neutral I HAD to use color inks.
> 
> FWIW
> Cleavis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Cleavis,
> > 
> > Since the Lysonic E inks were made to be a direct replacement for 
> the Epson inks, your results are similat to others printing B&W 
with 
> the Epson inks. As noticed with your print #1 it can be difficult 
to 

> get a truly neutral B&W print with color inks. The use of a good 
> color profile like you did with #2 goes a long way to improving 
> results. As odd as it may sound, I think you need better color 
> management to 
> print neutral B&W with color inks than you do for printing color. 
> That neutral point is very revealing of slight color imbalances.
> > 
> > 
> > Martin
> >

I made four prints today on Arches Hot Press
(straight watercolor paper, not inkjet specific)

Kept printing resolution at/above 480.  
Image floated in a black field

Print #1 - Proofed w/o adjustments
           Printed RGB/Cone Lysonic Driver LegionAHP
           Nice neutralish to warm (yellow)
Print #2 - Needed to make one part of the picture belong
           tonally, adjustments to only that portion.
           Not exactly sure why print 1 & 2 are not exactly
           the same except for that one area.
           Printed RGB/Cone Lysonic Driver LegionAHP
           Warmer, towards red, still very nice.
Print #3 - Dumped Color to print greyscale
           Printed RGB/greyscale
           Greener cast even in full black.
Print #4 - No adjustments from #3
           Printed Black Only/greyscale
           Neutral to cool blue even in full black

Full black when set side by side without seeing image is
enough to see the differences of print mode selection.
What great variety available!  What a confusing number of 
ways to make a 'mistake'.  The "uneducated" always thought you 
could just make the same photograph over and over...
...simply not so (at least it need not be so).

Final note...when I say greenish I mean its unmistakably
heading in that direction but not that it has gone competely
to tree frog green (as an example).

Also, the printer has no problem printing right over the
stamp & watermark on this paper.

Cleavis

Cleavis, I'm just not following you, some questions-

> Print #1 - Proofed w/o adjustments
>            Printed RGB/Cone Lysonic Driver LegionAHP
>            Nice neutralish to warm (yellow)
What does Cone Lysonic Driver LegionAHP refer to? Are you using thr 
Epson driver with a Cone profile for Legion Arches Hot Press? Or do 
you have a Cone driver of some kind? I know he distributed some at 
workshops.

> Print #2 - Needed to make one part of the picture belong
>            tonally, adjustments to only that portion.
>            Not exactly sure why print 1 & 2 are not exactly
>            the same except for that one area.
>            Printed RGB/Cone Lysonic Driver LegionAHP
>            Warmer, towards red, still very nice.
I'm not sure what sort of adjustment you mean. Anything that adjusted 
tone? Did the print get lees red as it dried?

> Print #3 - Dumped Color to print greyscale
>            Printed RGB/greyscale
>            Greener cast even in full black.
Do you mean it was previously a color image, that you changed to 
greyscale? Did it have color in it before you changed or was it 
neutral?

> Print #4 - No adjustments from #3
>            Printed Black Only/greyscale
>            Neutral to cool blue even in full black
Do you mean you selected balck ink in the driver? If so, this makes 
sense since the Lysonic K ink is blueish.
> 
> Full black when set side by side without seeing image is
> enough to see the differences of print mode selection.
What mode? Media selection?

> Also, the printer has no problem printing right over the
> stamp & watermark on this paper.
Arches has a history of use for fine art inkjet prints, I can't quite 
tell what your workflow is from the above, but a good custom profile 
made specificly for the ink/paper/printer combo would move you miles 
closer to something more predictable, particularly with a careful 
media selection test in the driver to avoid mottle. Perhaps that is 
all old news to you.
Tyler

Tyler,

> > Print #1 - Proofed w/o adjustments
> >            Printed RGB/Cone Lysonic Driver LegionAHP
> >            Nice neutralish to warm (yellow)
> What does Cone Lysonic Driver LegionAHP refer to? Are you using thr 
> Epson driver with a Cone profile for Legion Arches Hot Press? Or do 
> you have a Cone driver of some kind? I know he distributed some at 
> workshops.

Sorry, I'm using "driver" where I should be using "profile".  I 
ordered the complete printer profile set for the Epson 3000 from 
Inkjetmall...so I'm referring to Cone's Profile for Lysonic E inks to 
Legions (A)rches (H)ot (P)ress paper.
> 
> > Print #2 - Needed to make one part of the picture belong
> >            tonally, adjustments to only that portion.
> >            Not exactly sure why print 1 & 2 are not exactly
> >            the same except for that one area.
> >            Printed RGB/Cone Lysonic Driver LegionAHP
> >            Warmer, towards red, still very nice.
> I'm not sure what sort of adjustment you mean. Anything that 
adjusted tone? Did the print get lees red as it dried?

I just did a curve adjustment on one portion of the picture, 
selected.  The print is close but not exact in tone as the first.  It 
did not 'dry' closer.  Inks are pretty dry when it is done by the 
way, AHP is pretty absorbent.
> 
> > Print #3 - Dumped Color to print greyscale
> >            Printed RGB/greyscale
> >            Greener cast even in full black.
> Do you mean it was previously a color image, that you changed to 
> greyscale? Did it have color in it before you changed or was it 
> neutral?

Original (Print#1) was scanned in Fotolook (DuoScan) in negative, 
greyscale, 8bit, 2000dpi, and printed right away as a proof.  This 
was the most neutral/warm...so converting it to RBG for print #2 may 
have introduced the slightly warmer tone! [[Hey, thanks for answering 
that quandry!! :-) ]]  

I don't remember why I was inclined to convert the original greyscale 
scan to RBG, maybe just dumb habit at this point.  To recap, Print#1 
Greyscale, #2 converted to RGB, #3 went back to greyscale...oh yeah, 
I was wanting to see if there was a difference in the printing and 
there is.
 
> 
> > Print #4 - No adjustments from #3
> >            Printed Black Only/greyscale
> >            Neutral to cool blue even in full black
> Do you mean you selected balck ink in the driver? If so, this makes 
> sense since the Lysonic K ink is blueish.

Yes, a confirmation of slight blue tone to a black ink only selected 
in the driver.

> > 
> > Full black when set side by side without seeing image is
> > enough to see the differences of print mode selection.
> What mode? Media selection?

The actual prints themselves...I did some of this to see if a solid 
black tone would appear different with each change.  Normally I would 
not commit that much ink or that style of print to an image, a solid 
black surrounding and image.

> > Also, the printer has no problem printing right over the
> > stamp & watermark on this paper.
> Arches has a history of use for fine art inkjet prints, I can't 
quite tell what your workflow is from the above, but a good custom 
profile 
> made specificly for the ink/paper/printer combo would move you 
miles 
> closer to something more predictable, particularly with a careful 
> media selection test in the driver to avoid mottle. Perhaps that is 
> all old news to you.

Too new for anything to be old news.  Sometimes need to hear it a 
couple of times to make sense of it anyhow.  I believe the Cone 
Profile is a very nice one; I also printed today without it and 
didn't like the results as much.  It does provide best black and 
neutral so far.

Thank you > Tyler
Sincerely-
Cleavis

Normally I'd snip but the detail seemed important.

Snip

> > > Print #2 - Needed to make one part of the picture belong
> > >            tonally, adjustments to only that portion.
> > >            Not exactly sure why print 1 & 2 are not exactly
> > >            the same except for that one area.
> > >            Printed RGB/Cone Lysonic Driver LegionAHP
> > >            Warmer, towards red, still very nice.
> > I'm not sure what sort of adjustment you mean. Anything that 
> adjusted tone? Did the print get lees red as it dried?
> > greyscale? Did it have color in it before you changed or was it 
> > neutral?

Snip, Snip.

It seems scanning original in greyscale and then converting it to RGB 
alone was enough to introduce some warmth to the image...at least 
that's what I think I experienced today.

The personal gist of all this was too see how such subtle changes, 
ones that I wouldn't think might affect the picture might have.
After all, they were all 'greyscale' in that it was a B & W image, I 
didn't push it towards any color intentionlly!

To relate it to silver printing with Amidol & a Chlorobromide paper 
(Fortezo or Portriga Rapid) ... a change of a few degrees of the 
solution or slight variation on weight of Potassium Bromide would 
change the papers color and/or contrast.

Cleavis.

I'm clearer now on what you're up to, so perhaps I can confuse everything a bit more-

> When you do the first print (or proof) and are able to discern those 
> pesky discernable dots in the highlights, are you just selecting & 
> removing them; letting the paper be the complete tone in those areas?
I think this is primarily a 3000 dot size issue working with color inks in RGB. True quadtone methods eliminate them by only 
using light gray inks on the highlights, making the dots all but invisible. You're highlights are made of C, M, any Y inks in 
fairly coarse dots. The only way to make them smoother is to use a 6 color printer, which uses light C and M inks for the 
highlights, Y is already pretty light. Many people don't find the dots objectionable with full size 3000 prints on art papers, 
depending on imagery.

> Sorry, I'm using "driver" where I should be using "profile". ...so I'm referring to Cone's Profile for Lysonic E inks to 
> Legions (A)rches (H)ot (P)ress paper.
Got it.

> I just did a curve adjustment on one portion of the picture, 
> selected.  The print is close but not exact in tone as the first.  It 
> did not 'dry' closer.  Inks are pretty dry when it is done by the 
> way, AHP is pretty absorbent.
The reason I asked is because I use those inks for my color work, and have used arches on occassion. They always emerge 
a bit more magenta than they will wind up after about 20 minutes. So I don't know why the tone changed, I do know I have 
to constantly recheck the driver settings. Sometimes they come up exactly as there were left for the last print, sometimes 
not. And if you are selecting your profile in the Epson driver, with saved settings, the profile selection is NOT saved. So it's 
worth checking every time to make sure all settings are as they should be.

> Original (Print#1) was scanned in Fotolook (DuoScan) in negative, 
> greyscale, 8bit, 2000dpi, and printed right away as a proof.  This 
> was the most neutral/warm...so converting it to RBG for print #2 may 
> have introduced the slightly warmer tone! [[Hey, thanks for answering 
> that quandry!! :-) ]] 
I have no idea why that occurred. I openned a grayscale file, duped it, converted one to RGB, and previewed them both with 
they same profile in PS6. They looked very slightly different. Perhaps profile conversion from a dead neutral RGB file is 
slightly different than from the same file in grayscale, assuming the same gamma for both. I don't know which would be 
"correct", perhaps just pick one way to stay consistant.

>...I believe the Cone 
> Profile is a very nice one
Assuming printing from a dead nuetral RGB file, and applied properly (another problem), the profile should give you a very 
near nuetral print with a few little crossovers. If not, it could be better, I've had trouble with color profiles from them.

>; I also printed today without it and 
> didn't like the results as much.
Well, non OEM ink, uncoated Arches, I would expect much frustration without a profile.

> To relate it to silver printing with Amidol & a Chlorobromide paper 
> (Fortezo or Portriga Rapid) ... a change of a few degrees of the 
> solution or slight variation on weight of Potassium Bromide would 
> change the papers color and/or contrast.
You should be able to get very consistant results, though I've heard there are batch variations with Arches that are more 
discernable than coated papers, but of no concern to watercolor painters.
Keep us informed of your progress.
Tyler