Digital BW, The Print

Does anyone know if  there is a service out there that will 
produce a ferrotype print from a digital file?  Can't seem to find 
anything on the net.   Maybe the two technologies are 
incompatible?
  thanks,  doug

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nakalele2" 
<floydd001@h...> wrote:

A ferrotype print? As in producing a high gloss finish on glossy 
fiber-based paper? Or has the name been appropriated by some 
alternative process? Please define!

Steve Karafyllakis

www.stevekphoto.com

> Does anyone know if  there is a service out there that will 
> produce a ferrotype print from a digital file?  Can't seem to find 
> anything on the net.   Maybe the two technologies are 
> incompatible?
>   thanks,  doug

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"nakalele2" 
> <floydd001@h...> wrote:
> 
> A ferrotype print? As in producing a high gloss finish on glossy 
> fiber-based paper? Or has the name been appropriated by 
some 
> alternative process? Please define!
> 


Sorry, I didn't know this term was used in different ways.
  I am trying to get an "old school" tin type print on a sheet of 
metal made from a digital file.  
  thanks for any and all help,  doug

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nakalele2" 
<floydd001@h...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
> "nakalele2" 
> > <floydd001@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > A ferrotype print? As in producing a high gloss finish on glossy 
> > fiber-based paper? Or has the name been appropriated by 
> some 
> > alternative process? Please define!
> > 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I didn't know this term was used in different ways.
>   I am trying to get an "old school" tin type print on a sheet of 
> metal made from a digital file.  
>   thanks for any and all help,  doug

Right! So you're looking to reproduce the Daguerrotype or tintype 
effect from a digital file? whew!  Let's see... forget having it 
done, its almost certainly a do-it-yourselfer. I can think of 3 
approaches that might work. The first is to buy a tintype kit from 
(I think) Freestyle photo, or maybe Calumet? someone still sells 
them. The kit is basically a few pieces of emulsion-coated tin which 
you expose and process in a wet darkroom with a negative made from 
your file by a service bureau. 2nd: Find some suitable pieces of tin 
or aluminum (nothing ferrous) and hand coat it with Liquid Light 
emulsion, then expose and process in wet darkroom, again with neg 
from dig file.  3rd possibility: Print your image on the type of 
film that's intended to go on T-shirts, or overhead transparency 
film, or some flavor of back-laminating film, and laminate it to the 
tin sheets instead. Option 3 would be the easieast by far, but would 
probably yield the least convincing results. If you have a darkroom 
available, buying the kit would be the easiest, and you could 
probably make a neg by printing your (reversed)image on overhead 
transparency film in an inkjet printer. None of these methods are 
what you'd call quick'n'easy though, maybe some other list member 
can come up with easier alternatives?

Best Luck,

Steve Karafyllakis

The only ferrotype I know is the alt. process one (also named tintype).
If there's another ferrotype process please explain; I would like to
learn about it. BTW, many alt. process artists use digital files
nowadays (by the means of using (a) inkjet / (b)imagesetter negatives on
(a)transparency media / (b)lith film).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Karafyllakis [mailto:steve@...] 
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 4:37 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ferrotype print from digital file?
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nakalele2" 
> <floydd001@h...> wrote:
> 
> A ferrotype print? As in producing a high gloss finish on glossy 
> fiber-based paper? Or has the name been appropriated by some 
> alternative process? Please define!
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
www.stevekphoto.com

> Does anyone know if  there is a service out there that will
> produce a ferrotype print from a digital file?  Can't seem to find 
> anything on the net.   Maybe the two technologies are 
> incompatible?
>   thanks,  doug

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Loris Medici" 
<lorism@t...> wrote:
> The only ferrotype I know is the alt. process one (also named 
tintype).
> If there's another ferrotype process please explain; I would like 
to
> learn about it. 

What I was referring to isn't an entire process, just a finish for 
fiber-based glossy paper: you soaked the print in a glazing 
solution, and then dried it emulsion-down on a drum dryer to produce 
a mirror-gloss finish. Very popular in the 1950's and '60s for 
commercial work, but it was always finicky; it became obsolete in a 
hurry when RC paper improved enough in the mid-late seventies. 
Perhaps the name was appropriated from an obsolete (and recently 
revived) alt. process?

Polaroid emulsion transfer.
-Bobbie

I still have a couple of clients that insist on ferrotyped glossy
prints.  I don't know the current requirements, but 5 or 6 years ago,
the national historical archive was still requiring them -NO RC prints
would be accepted nor would they accept air-dried fiber glossy paper.

And I don't use a glazing solution. Water works fine if the plates are
clean and polished.

Hmm, I wonder if you took a piece of fiber F paper, fixed it, air dried
it, printed an image w/ultrachrome ink(sorta waterproof) and then
ferrotyped it?

Robbe Gibson
www.robbepp.com
714-637-3288

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Karafyllakis [mailto:steve@...] 
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 7:20 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ferrotype print from digital file?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Loris Medici" 
<lorism@t...> wrote:
> The only ferrotype I know is the alt. process one (also named 
tintype).
> If there's another ferrotype process please explain; I would like 
to
> learn about it. 

What I was referring to isn't an entire process, just a finish for 
fiber-based glossy paper: you soaked the print in a glazing 
solution, and then dried it emulsion-down on a drum dryer to produce 
a mirror-gloss finish. Very popular in the 1950's and '60s for 
commercial work, but it was always finicky; it became obsolete in a 
hurry when RC paper improved enough in the mid-late seventies. 
Perhaps the name was appropriated from an obsolete (and recently 
revived) alt. process?

On Monday, September 8, 2003, at 12:30  PM, Robbe wrote:

> I still have a couple of clients that insist on ferrotyped glossy
> prints.

Like another poster, I thought ferrotype was done with a collodian 
process also called tintype, so when you typed ferrotyped... with the 
"d" I did a search of that word, here's a little definition that seems 
to clear things in my head anyway.


   F E R R O T Y P E D


Ferrotyped: refers to the procedure for producing a glossy or glazed 
surface on a photographic print by drying it with the emulsion in 
contact with a highly polished surface.
The term " ferrotype " reflects the fact that the original surfaces 
used in this process were plates of enameled sheet iron. Today those 
surfaces are chrome - plated, stainless steel, glass, or plastic.
In order to be successfully ferrotyped, the photographic print has be 
fixed in a fresh hardening fixer, thoroughly washed, and squeegeed 
image - down onto an immaculate surface. The print is then exposed to 
heat. It is common in this process for the surface to be unevenly 
glossy, bubbled, or ridged, due to air pockets between the print and 
the drying surface and fluctuations in temperature at the drying stage

---
Carolyn

When I was learning photography back in the 1960's, I used to squeegee the prints that I wanted glossy onto ferrotype plates. The ones that I used were the steel ones with a baked on black enamel coating. The plate had to be  polished with a special plate polish that would allow the print to peel off as it dried. If it wasn't "polished" it could stick and be almost impossible to remove. However, a soaking in Pakosol solution before squeegeeing helped a lot. Sure there were tricks to it, but it wasn't that complicated. You got the hang of it after a couple of times and if you screwed up, you just resoaked the prints and tried again.

Gee. Am I old or what? 

Russ



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Robbe [mailto:videocinema@...t] 
* Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 11:31 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Ferrotype print from digital file?
* 
* 
* I still have a couple of clients that insist on ferrotyped 
* glossy prints.  I don't know the current requirements, but 5 
* or 6 years ago, the national historical archive was still 
* requiring them -NO RC prints would be accepted nor would they 
* accept air-dried fiber glossy paper.
* 
* And I don't use a glazing solution. Water works fine if the 
* plates are clean and polished.
* 
* Hmm, I wonder if you took a piece of fiber F paper, fixed it, 
* air dried it, printed an image w/ultrachrome ink(sorta 
* waterproof) and then ferrotyped it?
* 
Robbe,

People have tried printing with inkjet on processed silver gelatin paper and
I am afraid it does not work. The fixing process hardens the gelatin. The
ink just sits on top it and is easily wiped off. Inkjet pretty much requires
special receptor coatings to control the absorption of the ink into the
paper.

Even if the ink did stick it would be on top of the paper and look nothing
like a ferrotyped print.

To clear up the confusion. "ferrotype" has two definitions:

"ferrotype

-v., -typed, -typ.ing,
-n. Photog. 

-v.t. 
to put a glossy surface on (a print) by pressing, while wet, on a metal
sheet (fer'rotype tin"). 

-n. 
1. Also called tintype. a positive photograph made on a sensitized sheet of
enameled iron or tin. 
2. the process of making such photographs."

I guess the original "ferrotyping" of silver fiber prints was done by
pressing the prints face down on the same smooth metal sheets as used to
make "ferrotypes".

Martin Wesley http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

At 7:47 pm -0600 9/8/03, Carolyn Frayn wrote:

%< snip >%

>Ferrotyped: refers to the procedure for producing a glossy or glazed 
>surface on a photographic print by drying it with the emulsion in 
>contact with a highly polished surface. The term " ferrotype " 
>reflects the fact that the original surfaces used in this process 
>were plates of enameled sheet iron. Today those surfaces are chrome 
>- plated, stainless steel, glass, or plastic. In order to be 
>successfully ferrotyped, the photographic print has be fixed in a 
>fresh hardening fixer, thoroughly washed, and squeegeed image - down 
>onto an immaculate surface. The print is then exposed to heat. It is 
>common in this process for the surface to be unevenly glossy, 
>bubbled, or ridged, due to air pockets between the print and the 
>drying surface and fluctuations in temperature at the drying stage


I have to disagree with parts of this definition. I know that there 
are a lot of different types of ferrotype machines and that not all 
of them give optimal results without great care and preparation, but 
not all of them require squeegeeing. And some (at _least_) of them 
have a low probability of causing "unevenly glossy, bubbled, or 
ridged" prints.

In the mid 70's at R.I.T. we used large cylindrical-drum ferrotype 
machines. They had big chromed-steel drums (maybe a yard or more in 
diameter) and used wide canvas belts (probably 24" to 36") to feed 
prints onto and around the drums. The tightly-stretched continuous 
belt fed onto and around about 75% of the drum and then around some 
other rollers which brought it back to the staging area. There were 
also some smaller models that looked to be about 3/4 scale versions 
of the same thing. There was a temperature setting for the drum, 
which was usually set to "Burn Fingers but Don't Ignite Paper," and a 
speed setting. If the speed setting was fairly low you could place 
quite a few prints in a space-saving manner along and across the belt 
and have your whole job arrive within a minute or two of the first 
print.

You just placed your prints on the canvas feed area and popped them 
off when they came around the far side of the drum (they usually just 
dropped, but second passes around the drum were...not recommended, 
though not usually fatal). I sent hundreds of prints through those 
machines and I never squeegeed. I don't remember anyone else doing so 
either. I never had any problem with uneven glossiness, bubbling or 
ridging. I suspect that (with these machines) squeegeeing might well 
have _caused_ "uneven glossiness," etc.

You did have to use a hardening fixer and pay enough attention to the 
process that you didn't lay your print on the seam that completed the 
belt. You also had to stay away from the last quarter of an inch or 
so of the edge of the drum: there was a small area at each side that 
wasn't chromed and was recessed about a 64th of an inch.

If my print was good before I sent it through the ferrotype machine I 
always got back perfectly good "pressed" prints when I peeled them 
off the drum.

Sending RC prints through the machines was usually "not recommended" 
and, depending on the temperature setting, might require additional 
"remediation" on the part of the student. (Though I think that low 
temperature settings and fast speeds were successfully used by some 
-- with good results.)


-=-Dennis