Digital BW, The Print

Looks like I need to keep a tight grip on my trusty old version of Photoshop
5.x.  Adobe's products are starting to look uncomfortably like Microsoft
Office.

----- Original Message -----

From: "sceptre12345" <am1000@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 16:07
Subject: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8


>
> Avalable in November.
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0309/03092901adobecreativesuite.asp
>
> Cheers,
> Andre

Assuming you can do all your work  on an image in 16-bit,  is the image
ultimately degraded when you convert it to 8-bit  to print?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john eckenrode" <ejohn182002@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8


> that is reason enough to upgrade, that's killer
> news!!!!!!
>
> john e
> --- Martin Wesley <mwesley250@...> wrote:
> > Andre,
> >
> > Thanks for the announcement. The really big news
> > here for me is the
> > following from the Adobe site:
> >
> > "Comprehensive 16-bit support
> > Perform more precise editing and retouching with
> > expanded support for 16-bit
> > images in core features, including LAYERS, brushes,
> > text, shapes, and more."
> >
> > Finally layers in 16-bit mode!! Yeah!
> >
> > http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> >
> >
> > * -----Original Message-----
> > * From: sceptre12345 [mailto:am1000@...]
> > * Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 7:08 AM
> > * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > * Subject: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka
> > Photoshop 8
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > * Avalable in November.
> > *
> >
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0309/03092901adobecreativesuite.a
> > sp
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andre
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ---------------------~--> Buy
> > Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson,
> > Canon or Lexmark Printer
> > at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the
> > US & Canada.
> > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> >
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
> >
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What are you using that requires that you convert to 8-bit to print?
 
Tom Baker

"Avron L. Gordon" <agordo@...> wrote:
Assuming you can do all your work  on an image in 16-bit,  is the image
ultimately degraded when you convert it to 8-bit  to print?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john eckenrode" <ejohn182002@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8


> that is reason enough to upgrade, that's killer
> news!!!!!!
>
> john e
> --- Martin Wesley <mwesley250@...> wrote:
> > Andre,
> >
> > Thanks for the announcement. The really big news
> > here for me is the
> > following from the Adobe site:
> >
> > "Comprehensive 16-bit support
> > Perform more precise editing and retouching with
> > expanded support for 16-bit
> > images in core features, including LAYERS, brushes,
> > text, shapes, and more."
> >
> > Finally layers in 16-bit mode!! Yeah!
> >
> > http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> >
> >
> > * -----Original Message-----
> > * From: sceptre12345 [mailto:am1000@...]
> > * Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 7:08 AM
> > * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > * Subject: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka
> > Photoshop 8
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > * Avalable in November.
> > *
> >
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0309/03092901adobecreativesuite.a
> > sp
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andre
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ---------------------~--> Buy
> > Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson,
> > Canon or Lexmark Printer
> > at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the
> > US & Canada.
> > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> >
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> > Bookmarks, Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The
> > page is at:
> >
> >
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> >
>
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> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Piezo 6.0 and Panavue
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Baker" <tbaker1328@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8


> What are you using that requires that you convert to 8-bit to print?
>
> Tom Baker
>
> "Avron L. Gordon" <agordo@...> wrote:
> Assuming you can do all your work  on an image in 16-bit,  is the image
> ultimately degraded when you convert it to 8-bit  to print?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "john eckenrode" <ejohn182002@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:59 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
>
>
> > that is reason enough to upgrade, that's killer
> > news!!!!!!
> >
> > john e
> > --- Martin Wesley <mwesley250@...> wrote:
> > > Andre,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the announcement. The really big news
> > > here for me is the
> > > following from the Adobe site:
> > >
> > > "Comprehensive 16-bit support
> > > Perform more precise editing and retouching with
> > > expanded support for 16-bit
> > > images in core features, including LAYERS, brushes,
> > > text, shapes, and more."
> > >
> > > Finally layers in 16-bit mode!! Yeah!
> > >
> > > http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > >
> > http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > >
> > >
> > > * -----Original Message-----
> > > * From: sceptre12345 [mailto:am1000@...]
> > > * Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 7:08 AM
> > > * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > * Subject: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka
> > > Photoshop 8
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *
> > > * Avalable in November.
> > > *
> > >
> > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0309/03092901adobecreativesuite.a
> > > sp
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Andre
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > ---------------------~--> Buy
> > > Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson,
> > > Canon or Lexmark Printer
> > > at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the
> > > US & Canada.
> > > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> > >
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> > > Bookmarks, Polls and
> > > other resources as they are often being updated. The
> > > page is at:
> > >
> > >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
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> > >
> >
> > __________________________________
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> >
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keep
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>

Not really... at least if you agree that the human eye can't 
distinguish between more than 16 million colors.  The real problem 
with 8 bits per channel is with the fixed precision math that is 
performed for each adjustment... you get rounding errors which become 
cumulative and destructive.  This is much reduced when calculations 
are done in 16 bit mode.

mark

PS  I am working on an image editing package that works at a fixed 64 
bit depth per channel and maintains butter smooth tones through out 
any number of adjustments... but it runs way slower than PhotoShop;)


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Avron L. 
Gordon" <agordo@v...> wrote:
> Assuming you can do all your work  on an image in 16-bit,  is the 
image
> ultimately degraded when you convert it to 8-bit  to print?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "john eckenrode" <ejohn182002@y...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:59 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
> 
> 
> > that is reason enough to upgrade, that's killer
> > news!!!!!!
> >
> > john e
> > --- Martin Wesley <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > Andre,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the announcement. The really big news
> > > here for me is the
> > > following from the Adobe site:
> > >
> > > "Comprehensive 16-bit support
> > > Perform more precise editing and retouching with
> > > expanded support for 16-bit
> > > images in core features, including LAYERS, brushes,
> > > text, shapes, and more."
> > >
> > > Finally layers in 16-bit mode!! Yeah!
> > >
> > > http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > >
> > http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > >
> > >
> > > * -----Original Message-----
> > > * From: sceptre12345 [mailto:am1000@v...]
> > > * Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 7:08 AM
> > > * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > * Subject: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka
> > > Photoshop 8
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *
> > > * Avalable in November.
> > > *
> > >
> > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0309/03092901adobecreativesuite.a
> > > sp
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Andre
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > ---------------------~--> Buy
> > > Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson,
> > > Canon or Lexmark Printer
> > > at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the
> > > US & Canada.
> > > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> > >
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
---~->
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> > > Bookmarks, Polls and
> > > other resources as they are often being updated. The
> > > page is at:
> > >
> > >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
> > > digest, or you wish to
> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences
> > > by visiting this same
> > > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have
> > > one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> > > earlier messages to keep
> > > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to
> > > change the subject header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> > > attacks or flames
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message
> > > archives and the various
> > > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
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> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >
> >

64bit?!
what program is that

--- Mark Hahn <markhahn2000@...> wrote:
> Not really... at least if you agree that the human
> eye can't 
> distinguish between more than 16 million colors. 
> The real problem 
> with 8 bits per channel is with the fixed precision
> math that is 
> performed for each adjustment... you get rounding
> errors which become 
> cumulative and destructive.  This is much reduced
> when calculations 
> are done in 16 bit mode.
> 
> mark
> 
> PS  I am working on an image editing package that
> works at a fixed 64 
> bit depth per channel and maintains butter smooth
> tones through out 
> any number of adjustments... but it runs way slower
> than PhotoShop;)
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "Avron L. 
> Gordon" <agordo@v...> wrote:
> > Assuming you can do all your work  on an image in
> 16-bit,  is the 
> image
> > ultimately degraded when you convert it to 8-bit 
> to print?
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "john eckenrode" <ejohn182002@y...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:59 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka
> Photoshop 8
> > 
> > 
> > > that is reason enough to upgrade, that's killer
> > > news!!!!!!
> > >
> > > john e
> > > --- Martin Wesley <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > > Andre,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the announcement. The really big
> news
> > > > here for me is the
> > > > following from the Adobe site:
> > > >
> > > > "Comprehensive 16-bit support
> > > > Perform more precise editing and retouching
> with
> > > > expanded support for 16-bit
> > > > images in core features, including LAYERS,
> brushes,
> > > > text, shapes, and more."
> > > >
> > > > Finally layers in 16-bit mode!! Yeah!
> > > >
> > > > http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/
> > > >
> > > > Martin Wesley
> > > >
> > >
>
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> > > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > * -----Original Message-----
> > > > * From: sceptre12345 [mailto:am1000@v...]
> > > > * Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 7:08 AM
> > > > * To:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > > * Subject: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS --
> aka
> > > > Photoshop 8
> > > > *
> > > > *
> > > > *
> > > > * Avalable in November.
> > > > *
> > > >
> > >
>
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0309/03092901adobecreativesuite.a
> > > > sp
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Andre
> > > >
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Avron,

Piezo 6.0 will print a 16-bit grayscale file from Photoshop. Of course we
will need to see how the plug-in works with Photoshop CS!<G> Might need to
keep PS 7 on the computer.

Panavue I have no info on. As far as I know most of the B&W workflows should
be able to print 16-bit files.

Martin

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Avron L. Gordon [mailto:agordo@visi.com] 
* Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:54 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
* 
* 
* Piezo 6.0 and Panavue
* ----- Original Message ----- 
* From: "Tom Baker" <tbaker1328@...>
* To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
* Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 10:48 PM
* Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
* 
* 
* > What are you using that requires that you convert to 8-bit to print?
* >
* > Tom Baker
* >
* > "Avron L. Gordon" <agordo@...> wrote:
* > Assuming you can do all your work  on an image in 16-bit,  is the 
* > image ultimately degraded when you convert it to 8-bit  to print?
* > ----- Original Message -----
* > From: "john eckenrode" <ejohn182002@...>
* > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
* > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:59 PM
* > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
* >
* >
* > > that is reason enough to upgrade, that's killer
* > > news!!!!!!
* > >
* > > john e
* > > --- Martin Wesley <mwesley250@...> wrote:
* > > > Andre,
* > > >
* > > > Thanks for the announcement. The really big news
* > > > here for me is the
* > > > following from the Adobe site:
* > > >
* > > > "Comprehensive 16-bit support
* > > > Perform more precise editing and retouching with
* > > > expanded support for 16-bit
* > > > images in core features, including LAYERS, brushes,
* > > > text, shapes, and more."
* > > >
* > > > Finally layers in 16-bit mode!! Yeah!
* > > >
* > > > http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/
* > > >
* > > > Martin Wesley
* > > >
* > > http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
* > > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
* > > >
* > > >
* > > > * -----Original Message-----
* > > > * From: sceptre12345 [mailto:am1000@videotron.ca]
* > > > * Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 7:08 AM
* > > > * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* > > > * Subject: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka
* > > > Photoshop 8
* > > > *
* > > > *
* > > > *
* > > > * Avalable in November.
* > > > *
* > > >
* > > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0309/03092901adobecreativesuite.a
* > > > sp
* > > >
* > > > Cheers,
* > > > Andre
* > > >
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* > > >
* > > 
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* -----Original Message-----
* From: Mark Hahn [mailto:markhahn2000@yahoo.com] 
* Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:58 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
* 
* 
* Not really... at least if you agree that the human eye can't 
* distinguish between more than 16 million colors.  The real problem 
* with 8 bits per channel is with the fixed precision math that is 
* performed for each adjustment... you get rounding errors which become 
* cumulative and destructive.  This is much reduced when calculations 
* are done in 16 bit mode.
* 
* mark
* 
* PS  I am working on an image editing package that works at a fixed 64 
* bit depth per channel and maintains butter smooth tones through out 
* any number of adjustments... but it runs way slower than PhotoShop;)
* 
Mark,

I think that 256 shades of gray are probably more than adequate for B&W
printing but as you note, adjusting an 8-bit file causes that number to
drop. Fortunately we can actually lose quite a bit and still come up with a
good print. I suspect that as few as 100 shades of gray may be acceptable in
some images but it is very easy to fall below an acceptable threshold if you
are not careful.

With the 65,536 shades of gray available in a 16-bit file the chances of
having it visually degrade during Photoshop adjustments is greatly reduced
to say the least. Although I imagine if you try hard enough you will still
get things out of whack!

At 64 bit or 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 shades of gray you are probably way
beyond what is needed. In all honesty I wonder if we couldn't do just fine
with say 12-bit or 4096 shades of gray. In any case you don't need more that
your scanner or digital camera can output and this has been in the 10 to
14-bit range.

It is interesting to note that even when you scan 10 to 14-bit data to a
16-bit file you can lose image data if you do not spread that data over the
full 16-bit range before you start applying gamma or curve adjustments. In
other words you need to set your black and white points in levels first and
seperately before any other adjustments.

Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

When I try printing 16-bit images to my 1160 from PS 7.0 I get 
an "out of paper" error... anyone else get that?  I just drop it down 
to 8-bit after applying Roark curves and it isn't that big a deal... 
but it is annoying.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> What are you using that requires that you convert to 8-bit to print?

...

Well, Levels *is* just a handy interface for a Curve Adjustment... to 
really start filling things in I think you have to introduce 
something that does a little averaging... curves just scale your 
values as-is... so every 159 level gray, for instance, is going to be 
multiplied by the same value via the curve, but in a convolving 
filter it will depend on the adjoining pixels and thus introduce 
variation and kind of fill things in.

Actually, I don't always like setting my B&W points first in PS 
because it clips your data right there in that one step and then if 
you do more out of range adjustments you get even more clipping... 
too bad PS can't maintain the out of range data...  If I have to, I 
will usually expand the data a bit, but not right to true b&w pts, do 
other stuff and then do a final b&w pt setting (if I haven't done it 
already using curve adjustments) as a last step.

64 bits per channel is way over-kill, but it is just a default in my 
program which could be changed... the real thing is that my own 
program is more a learning tool for me than anything else.  When I 
got started in digital image editing with PS 3 years ago it was all 
too baffling to me and the tripe that is written in most PS for 
Photographers-like books just shows you what buttons and sliders to 
use.  I never felt I got a good enough grasp of what I was actually 
doing from just the smoke and mirrors explainations in these books to 
do it intelligently... but I found that after I went through the 
effort to write and de-bug my own code, for something like an unsharp 
mask routines etc. that I then *knew* pixel for pixel exactly what I 
was doing and why, even when it was hidden "under the hood" in PS... 
just my mentality and my method... probably not shared by many others 
on the list:)

mark

...
> Mark,
> 
> I think that 256 shades of gray are probably more than adequate for 
B&W
> printing but as you note, adjusting an 8-bit file causes that 
number to
> drop. Fortunately we can actually lose quite a bit and still come 
up with a
> good print. I suspect that as few as 100 shades of gray may be 
acceptable in
> some images but it is very easy to fall below an acceptable 
threshold if you
> are not careful.
> 
> With the 65,536 shades of gray available in a 16-bit file the 
chances of
> having it visually degrade during Photoshop adjustments is greatly 
reduced
> to say the least. Although I imagine if you try hard enough you 
will still
> get things out of whack!
> 
> At 64 bit or 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 shades of gray you are 
probably way
> beyond what is needed. In all honesty I wonder if we couldn't do 
just fine
> with say 12-bit or 4096 shades of gray. In any case you don't need 
more that
> your scanner or digital camera can output and this has been in the 
10 to
> 14-bit range.
> 
> It is interesting to note that even when you scan 10 to 14-bit data 
to a
> 16-bit file you can lose image data if you do not spread that data 
over the
> full 16-bit range before you start applying gamma or curve 
adjustments. In
> other words you need to set your black and white points in levels 
first and

> seperately before any other adjustments.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Mark Hahn [mailto:markhahn2000@yahoo.com] 
* Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 11:07 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
* 
* 
* Well, Levels *is* just a handy interface for a Curve Adjustment... 

Mark,

Yes but it is not obvious to most that when you change the gamma in Levels
you are changing the slope of the curve. If you do not change the gamma
setting in Levels the curve remains linear. You can set your B&W points in
Curves leaving a straight line but it is much more difficult to see what you
are doing since you do not have a histogram to see exactly where you are
clipping.

If you change the gamma at the same time as setting the B&W points or apply
a non-linear curve first, your 10 or 12 or 14-bit data that was mapped into
adjacent values in 16-bit space may be shifted within that confined area
causing pixels to be moved from their original value to an adjacent one. If
this happens there is a loss of information at one level and an addition of
pixels at another value or "combing."

If you set the B&W points first (and they can be set well outside any
clipping points) the low bit data is redistributed in 16-bit space. Then
when you apply a curve adjustment or a gamma change in Levels the pixels can
be reassigned to different values without pilling up on top of each other.

This is where some scanning software, Silverfast in my case, can really give
you a hard time if you use it to make on the fly adjustments.

My workflow has been to first adjust the raw 16-bit scan file with the
Levels function in Silverfast HDR setting the white point slider just beyond
the lightest pixel and the black point slider exactly at the lowest pixel.
(I was probably unclear in my earlier post and gave the impression that I
was using the eyedropper tools in Levels.) My second step is to use Curves
in Photoshop to shape the overall contrast. My only point was that doing
this process in two separate steps and in this order maybe kinder to the
image data than doing them both at once or in the reverse order.

You can accomplish the same thing with two separate curve adjustments. The
idea is just to make sure the data is spread out before adjusting the slope.
Of course if the software is intelligent enough to do things in the proper
sequence then you don't have to worry about it. PS seems pretty okay in this
regard but after my experiences I just play it safe.

* to 
* really start filling things in I think you have to introduce 
* something that does a little averaging... curves just scale your 
* values as-is... so every 159 level gray, for instance, is going to be 
* multiplied by the same value via the curve, but in a convolving 
* filter it will depend on the adjoining pixels and thus introduce 
* variation and kind of fill things in.

Yes but if the result of the multiplication is already occupied by other
pixels you are losing the information that separates one tone from another.
Better to give your data some breathing room before you start pushing it
around.
* 
* Actually, I don't always like setting my B&W points first in PS 
* because it clips your data right there in that one step and then if 
* you do more out of range adjustments you get even more clipping... 
* too bad PS can't maintain the out of range data...  If I have to, I 
* will usually expand the data a bit, but not right to true b&w pts, do 
* other stuff and then do a final b&w pt setting (if I haven't done it 
* already using curve adjustments) as a last step.

At this initial stage I always set my B&W points outside the min and max
values shown on in the Levels histogram so that there is no clipping.
* 
* 64 bits per channel is way over-kill, but it is just a default in my 
* program which could be changed... the real thing is that my own 
* program is more a learning tool for me than anything else.  When I 
* got started in digital image editing with PS 3 years ago it was all 
* too baffling to me and the tripe that is written in most PS for 
* Photographers-like books just shows you what buttons and sliders to 
* use.  I never felt I got a good enough grasp of what I was actually 
* doing from just the smoke and mirrors explainations in these books to 
* do it intelligently... but I found that after I went through the 
* effort to write and de-bug my own code, for something like an unsharp 
* mask routines etc. that I then *knew* pixel for pixel exactly what I 
* was doing and why, even when it was hidden "under the hood" in PS... 
* just my mentality and my method... probably not shared by many others 
* on the list:)

I agree (especially about the books and I have a stack to send out for
recycling!). Trying to understand what is happening behind the curtain after
seeing scan files "combed" lead me to this sequence of steps. It often is
not clear what PS or your scanning software may be doing to your data. For
instance if your scanner software mapped the 14-bit scanner data of 16382
shades of gray into the values 10001 through 26382 within the 65536 shades
of gray in 16-bit space you still only have 16382 shades of gray even if
they are in a larger working space. (This is why raw scans are so bunched up
when you look at the histogram.) If you change the slope of the curve of
that data you will move pixels from one value to another within that narrow
range.

If instead you first re-map the data so that the 0 point of the 14-bit data
falls on say 500 and the tonal value of 16381 on 65000 there are now empty
values between the 16382 shades of gray recorded. At this point if you apply
a curve type function and shift pixels from their recorded value to a
calculated one roughly 75% of the moved pixels will fall on unused values in
16-bit space increasing the number of tonal values in the file rather than
reducing them.

This less important if we can remain in 16-bit space but I hate to loose any
data. When I need to drop down to 8-bit to use layers it has been very
critical to maintain all the data I could at each step of the process 

Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Avron writes:

> Assuming you can do all your work  on an image in 16-bit,  is the image
> ultimately degraded when you convert it to 8-bit  to print?

Inevitably.  But being able to work in 16-bit gives you more headroom for
adjustment and retouching before you do the conversion.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" <
markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> When I try printing 16-bit images to my 1160 from PS 7.0 I get 
> an "out of paper" error... anyone else get that?  I just drop it down 
> to 8-bit after applying Roark curves and it isn't that big a deal... 
> but it is annoying.
> 
> mark
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
> <tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> > What are you using that requires that you convert to 8-bit to print?
> 

Hmmm.  I can routinely print 16-bit images on my 1160/PS 7.0.1/Mac OS 
9.1 using MIS-FS inks and the Randall workflow.

Harry Lockwood

Martin,

Can't you set the black and white points in curves just as well 
(along the x axis)?  Is there a difference between using levels to do 
this and constraining the x axis in curves?  I thought a discussion 
earlier this summer established that levels tends to degrade the 
image much more than a curve adjustment.

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> * -----Original Message-----
> * From: Mark Hahn [mailto:markhahn2000@y...] 
> * Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:58 PM
> * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
> * 
> * 
> * Not really... at least if you agree that the human eye can't 
> * distinguish between more than 16 million colors.  The real 
problem 
> * with 8 bits per channel is with the fixed precision math that is 
> * performed for each adjustment... you get rounding errors which 
become 
> * cumulative and destructive.  This is much reduced when 
calculations 
> * are done in 16 bit mode.
> * 
> * mark
> * 
> * PS  I am working on an image editing package that works at a 
fixed 64 
> * bit depth per channel and maintains butter smooth tones through 
out 
> * any number of adjustments... but it runs way slower than 
PhotoShop;)
> * 
> Mark,
> 
> I think that 256 shades of gray are probably more than adequate for 
B&W
> printing but as you note, adjusting an 8-bit file causes that 
number to
> drop. Fortunately we can actually lose quite a bit and still come 
up with a
> good print. I suspect that as few as 100 shades of gray may be 
acceptable in
> some images but it is very easy to fall below an acceptable 
threshold if you
> are not careful.
> 
> With the 65,536 shades of gray available in a 16-bit file the 
chances of
> having it visually degrade during Photoshop adjustments is greatly 
reduced
> to say the least. Although I imagine if you try hard enough you 
will still
> get things out of whack!
> 
> At 64 bit or 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 shades of gray you are 
probably way
> beyond what is needed. In all honesty I wonder if we couldn't do 
just fine
> with say 12-bit or 4096 shades of gray. In any case you don't need 
more that
> your scanner or digital camera can output and this has been in the 
10 to
> 14-bit range.
> 
> It is interesting to note that even when you scan 10 to 14-bit data 
to a
> 16-bit file you can lose image data if you do not spread that data 
over the
> full 16-bit range before you start applying gamma or curve 
adjustments. In
> other words you need to set your black and white points in levels 
first and

> seperately before any other adjustments.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Stephen Kobrin [mailto:skobrin@hotmail.com] 
* Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 5:54 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
* 
* 
* Martin,
* 
* Can't you set the black and white points in curves just as well 
* (along the x axis)?  Is there a difference between using levels to do 
* this and constraining the x axis in curves?  I thought a discussion 
* earlier this summer established that levels tends to degrade the 
* image much more than a curve adjustment.
* 
Steve,

Yes you can but I find it easier to do it in Levels since I set the two
points using the sliders based upon the information displayed by the
histogram. What I don't use in Levels anymore and what I think causes people
problems is the gamma adjustment. Changing gamma applies a curve to the
image but you can't see the shape of the curve like you can using Curves.

So I like to do it as a two step operation of setting end points in Levels
with Silverfast and shape contrast with Curves in PS. Like just about
everything in digital image editing there are multiple paths to the same
destination.

Martin
* 
* --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
* <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
* > * -----Original Message-----
* > * From: Mark Hahn [mailto:markhahn2000@y...]
* > * Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:58 PM
* > * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* > * Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
* > * 
* > * 
* > * Not really... at least if you agree that the human eye can't 
* > * distinguish between more than 16 million colors.  The real 
* problem 
* > * with 8 bits per channel is with the fixed precision math that is
* > * performed for each adjustment... you get rounding errors which 
* become 
* > * cumulative and destructive.  This is much reduced when
* calculations 
* > * are done in 16 bit mode.
* > *
* > * mark
* > * 
* > * PS  I am working on an image editing package that works at a 
* fixed 64 
* > * bit depth per channel and maintains butter smooth tones through
* out 
* > * any number of adjustments... but it runs way slower than
* PhotoShop;)
* > *
* > Mark,
* > 
* > I think that 256 shades of gray are probably more than adequate for
* B&W
* > printing but as you note, adjusting an 8-bit file causes that
* number to
* > drop. Fortunately we can actually lose quite a bit and still come
* up with a
* > good print. I suspect that as few as 100 shades of gray may be
* acceptable in
* > some images but it is very easy to fall below an acceptable
* threshold if you
* > are not careful.
* > 
* > With the 65,536 shades of gray available in a 16-bit file the
* chances of
* > having it visually degrade during Photoshop adjustments is greatly
* reduced
* > to say the least. Although I imagine if you try hard enough you
* will still
* > get things out of whack!
* > 
* > At 64 bit or 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 shades of gray you are
* probably way
* > beyond what is needed. In all honesty I wonder if we couldn't do
* just fine
* > with say 12-bit or 4096 shades of gray. In any case you don't need
* more that
* > your scanner or digital camera can output and this has been in the
* 10 to
* > 14-bit range.
* > 
* > It is interesting to note that even when you scan 10 to 14-bit data
* to a
* > 16-bit file you can lose image data if you do not spread that data
* over the
* > full 16-bit range before you start applying gamma or curve
* adjustments. In
* > other words you need to set your black and white points in levels
* first and
* > seperately before any other adjustments.
* > 
* > Martin Wesley 
* > http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
* > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
*

could be a windows xp thing...

...
> Hmmm.  I can routinely print 16-bit images on my 1160/PS 7.0.1/Mac 
OS 

> 9.1 using MIS-FS inks and the Randall workflow.
> 
> Harry Lockwood

In 8 bit mode that extra curve adjust(Levels) adds to your damage if 
it is done in PS, in 16 bit mode it doesn't really matter.  When you 
set your white points in scanner software you are working at the 
scanner bit depth which is typically higher than 8 bit so it is less 
damaging, even if you do use the "gamma slider" 

mark 

...
> * earlier this summer established that levels tends to degrade the 
> * image much more than a curve adjustment.
> * 
> Steve,
> 
> Yes you can but I find it easier to do it in Levels since I set the 
two
> points using the sliders based upon the information displayed by the
> histogram. What I don't use in Levels anymore and what I think 
causes people
> problems is the gamma adjustment. Changing gamma applies a curve to 
the
> image but you can't see the shape of the curve like you can using 
Curves.
> 
> So I like to do it as a two step operation of setting end points in 
Levels
> with Silverfast and shape contrast with Curves in PS. Like just 
about
> everything in digital image editing there are multiple paths to the 
same
> destination.
...

What I actually do is to use levels to determine the black and white 
points using the historgram and then actually set them in curves.  I 
gather from your post that this is not necessary as long as I do not 
fool with the gamma adjustment in levels.  Thanks Martin.

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> 
> * -----Original Message-----
> * From: Stephen Kobrin [mailto:skobrin@h...] 
> * Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 5:54 AM
> * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
> * 
> * 
> * Martin,
> * 
> * Can't you set the black and white points in curves just as well 
> * (along the x axis)?  Is there a difference between using levels 
to do 
> * this and constraining the x axis in curves?  I thought a 
discussion 
> * earlier this summer established that levels tends to degrade the 
> * image much more than a curve adjustment.
> * 
> Steve,
> 
> Yes you can but I find it easier to do it in Levels since I set the 
two
> points using the sliders based upon the information displayed by the
> histogram. What I don't use in Levels anymore and what I think 
causes people
> problems is the gamma adjustment. Changing gamma applies a curve to 
the
> image but you can't see the shape of the curve like you can using 
Curves.
> 
> So I like to do it as a two step operation of setting end points in 
Levels
> with Silverfast and shape contrast with Curves in PS. Like just 
about
> everything in digital image editing there are multiple paths to the 
same
> destination.
> 
> Martin
> * 
> * --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin 
Wesley" 
> * <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> * > * -----Original Message-----
> * > * From: Mark Hahn [mailto:markhahn2000@y...]
> * > * Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:58 PM
> * > * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * > * Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
> * > * 
> * > * 
> * > * Not really... at least if you agree that the human eye can't 
> * > * distinguish between more than 16 million colors.  The real 
> * problem 
> * > * with 8 bits per channel is with the fixed precision math that 
is
> * > * performed for each adjustment... you get rounding errors 
which 
> * become 
> * > * cumulative and destructive.  This is much reduced when
> * calculations 
> * > * are done in 16 bit mode.
> * > *
> * > * mark
> * > * 
> * > * PS  I am working on an image editing package that works at a 
> * fixed 64 
> * > * bit depth per channel and maintains butter smooth tones 
through
> * out 
> * > * any number of adjustments... but it runs way slower than
> * PhotoShop;)
> * > *
> * > Mark,
> * > 
> * > I think that 256 shades of gray are probably more than adequate 
for
> * B&W
> * > printing but as you note, adjusting an 8-bit file causes that
> * number to
> * > drop. Fortunately we can actually lose quite a bit and still 
come
> * up with a
> * > good print. I suspect that as few as 100 shades of gray may be
> * acceptable in
> * > some images but it is very easy to fall below an acceptable
> * threshold if you
> * > are not careful.
> * > 
> * > With the 65,536 shades of gray available in a 16-bit file the
> * chances of
> * > having it visually degrade during Photoshop adjustments is 
greatly
> * reduced
> * > to say the least. Although I imagine if you try hard enough you
> * will still
> * > get things out of whack!
> * > 
> * > At 64 bit or 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 shades of gray you are
> * probably way
> * > beyond what is needed. In all honesty I wonder if we couldn't do
> * just fine
> * > with say 12-bit or 4096 shades of gray. In any case you don't 
need
> * more that
> * > your scanner or digital camera can output and this has been in 
the
> * 10 to
> * > 14-bit range.
> * > 
> * > It is interesting to note that even when you scan 10 to 14-bit 
data
> * to a
> * > 16-bit file you can lose image data if you do not spread that 
data
> * over the
> * > full 16-bit range before you start applying gamma or curve
> * adjustments. In
> * > other words you need to set your black and white points in 
levels

> * first and
> * > seperately before any other adjustments.
> * > 
> * > Martin Wesley 
> * > http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> * > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> *

Mark,

I print 16-bit grayscale images on my 1160 all the time using Paul's curves and UT inks...PS 7.0.1 on a PC.

Alan Huntley

> 
> From: "Mark Hahn" <markhahn2000@...>
> Date: 2003/09/30 Tue AM 01:19:07 EDT
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
> 
> When I try printing 16-bit images to my 1160 from PS 7.0 I get 
> an "out of paper" error... anyone else get that?  I just drop it down 
> to 8-bit after applying Roark curves and it isn't that big a deal... 
> but it is annoying.
> 
> mark
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
> <tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> > What are you using that requires that you convert to 8-bit to print?
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>

I think it is preferable to make one curve adjustment if at all 
possible.  Each levels adjustment equals one curve adjustment no 
matter what you do.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Kobrin" 
<skobrin@h...> wrote:
> What I actually do is to use levels to determine the black and 
white 
> points using the historgram and then actually set them in curves.  
I 
> gather from your post that this is not necessary as long as I do 
not 
> fool with the gamma adjustment in levels.  Thanks Martin.
> 
> Steve
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin 
Wesley" 
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > * -----Original Message-----
> > * From: Stephen Kobrin [mailto:skobrin@h...] 
> > * Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 5:54 AM
> > * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > * Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 8
> > * 
> > * 
> > * Martin,
> > * 
> > * Can't you set the black and white points in curves just as well 
> > * (along the x axis)?  Is there a difference between using levels 
> to do 
> > * this and constraining the x axis in curves?  I thought a 
> discussion 
> > * earlier this summer established that levels tends to degrade 
the 
> > * image much more than a curve adjustment.
> > * 
> > Steve,
> > 
> > Yes you can but I find it easier to do it in Levels since I set 
the 
> two
> > points using the sliders based upon the information displayed by 
the
> > histogram. What I don't use in Levels anymore and what I think 
> causes people
> > problems is the gamma adjustment. Changing gamma applies a curve 
to 
> the
> > image but you can't see the shape of the curve like you can using 
> Curves.
> > 
> > So I like to do it as a two step operation of setting end points 
in 
> Levels
> > with Silverfast and shape contrast with Curves in PS. Like just 
> about
> > everything in digital image editing there are multiple paths to 
the 
> same
> > destination.
> > 
> > Martin
> > * 
> > * --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin 
> Wesley" 
> > * <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > * > * -----Original Message-----
> > * > * From: Mark Hahn [mailto:markhahn2000@y...]
> > * > * Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:58 PM
> > * > * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > * > * Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Photoshop CS -- aka Photoshop 
8
> > * > * 
> > * > * 
> > * > * Not really... at least if you agree that the human eye 
can't 
> > * > * distinguish between more than 16 million colors.  The real 
> > * problem 
> > * > * with 8 bits per channel is with the fixed precision math 
that 
> is
> > * > * performed for each adjustment... you get rounding errors 
> which 
> > * become 
> > * > * cumulative and destructive.  This is much reduced when
> > * calculations 
> > * > * are done in 16 bit mode.
> > * > *
> > * > * mark
> > * > * 
> > * > * PS  I am working on an image editing package that works at 
a 
> > * fixed 64 
> > * > * bit depth per channel and maintains butter smooth tones 
> through
> > * out 
> > * > * any number of adjustments... but it runs way slower than
> > * PhotoShop;)
> > * > *
> > * > Mark,
> > * > 
> > * > I think that 256 shades of gray are probably more than 
adequate 
> for
> > * B&W
> > * > printing but as you note, adjusting an 8-bit file causes that
> > * number to
> > * > drop. Fortunately we can actually lose quite a bit and still 
> come
> > * up with a
> > * > good print. I suspect that as few as 100 shades of gray may be
> > * acceptable in
> > * > some images but it is very easy to fall below an acceptable
> > * threshold if you
> > * > are not careful.
> > * > 
> > * > With the 65,536 shades of gray available in a 16-bit file the
> > * chances of
> > * > having it visually degrade during Photoshop adjustments is 
> greatly
> > * reduced
> > * > to say the least. Although I imagine if you try hard enough 
you
> > * will still
> > * > get things out of whack!
> > * > 
> > * > At 64 bit or 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 shades of gray you are
> > * probably way
> > * > beyond what is needed. In all honesty I wonder if we couldn't 
do
> > * just fine
> > * > with say 12-bit or 4096 shades of gray. In any case you don't 
> need
> > * more that
> > * > your scanner or digital camera can output and this has been 
in 
> the
> > * 10 to
> > * > 14-bit range.
> > * > 
> > * > It is interesting to note that even when you scan 10 to 14-
bit 

> data
> > * to a
> > * > 16-bit file you can lose image data if you do not spread that 
> data
> > * over the
> > * > full 16-bit range before you start applying gamma or curve
> > * adjustments. In
> > * > other words you need to set your black and white points in 
> levels
> > * first and
> > * > seperately before any other adjustments.
> > * > 
> > * > Martin Wesley 
> > * > http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> > * > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > *