Digital BW, The Print

I try to do all levels and curves in 16 bit as 8 bit adjustments 
pull the image apart like an undercooked pizza base.

Sometimes there is fine tuning done in 8 bit, often with adjustment 
layers. Now I know these don't interfere with the original file, 
however, taking for example... a moderate stretch of the levels in 
an adjustment layer and then those two layers flattened for 
printing. Would that lead to the same degradation (good word for 
this) as if it was applied directly to the image layer. In other 
words, would there be the same solarized appearance as the end 
result.

Garry Sarre

www.sarre.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Sarre" 
<garry@s...> wrote:
> I try to do all levels and curves in 16 bit as 8 bit adjustments 
> pull the image apart like an undercooked pizza base.
> 
> Sometimes there is fine tuning done in 8 bit, often with 
adjustment 
> layers. Now I know these don't interfere with the original file, 
> however, taking for example... a moderate stretch of the levels in 
> an adjustment layer and then those two layers flattened for 
> printing. Would that lead to the same degradation (good word for 
> this) as if it was applied directly to the image layer. In other 
> words, would there be the same solarized appearance as the end 
> result.
> 
> Garry Sarre
> 
> www.sarre.com

Garry;

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 
most of these printer drivers are capable of processing a layered 
image-at some point it has to get flattened and your adjustments 
applied so doing as much as possible in 16-bit makes sense, at least 
in theory. However,I seem to remember some rip-snorting arguments on 
this forum as to wether or not you could actualy see the damage in a 
print.

Steve Karafyllakis

I'm beginning to wonder about the actual visual degredation as well.  I want to get some time to try to prove/dis-prove this.  At least to my own satisfaction.
 
I believe that there is probably a lot of math/science that says there is degradation.  But, I want to see under my particular conditions and expectations.
 
Tom Baker

Steven Karafyllakis <steve@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Sarre" 
<garry@s...> wrote:
> I try to do all levels and curves in 16 bit as 8 bit adjustments 
> pull the image apart like an undercooked pizza base.
> 
> Sometimes there is fine tuning done in 8 bit, often with 
adjustment 
> layers. Now I know these don't interfere with the original file, 
> however, taking for example... a moderate stretch of the levels in 
> an adjustment layer and then those two layers flattened for 
> printing. Would that lead to the same degradation (good word for 
> this) as if it was applied directly to the image layer. In other 
> words, would there be the same solarized appearance as the end 
> result.
> 
> Garry Sarre
> 
> www.sarre.com

Garry;

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 
most of these printer drivers are capable of processing a layered 
image-at some point it has to get flattened and your adjustments 
applied so doing as much as possible in 16-bit makes sense, at least 
in theory. However,I seem to remember some rip-snorting arguments on 
this forum as to wether or not you could actualy see the damage in a 
print.

Steve Karafyllakis 




Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,

I cannot speak to more complex layers, but I do use an adjustment 
layer at times to make last minute corrections before printing and 
Epson printers seem to handle it without a problem.  They are simple 
curves adjustments for brightness or contrast.

Steve

> 
> I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 
> most of these printer drivers are capable of processing a layered 
> image-at some point it has to get flattened and your adjustments 
> applied so doing as much as possible in 16-bit makes sense, at 
least 
> in theory. However,I seem to remember some rip-snorting arguments 
on 
> this forum as to wether or not you could actualy see the damage in 
a 

> print.
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis

> From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@...]
>
> I'm beginning to wonder about the actual visual degredation as
> well.  I want to get some time to try to prove/dis-prove this.
> At least to my own satisfaction.
>
> I believe that there is probably a lot of math/science that says
> there is degradation.  But, I want to see under my particular
> conditions and expectations.

For the most part, the answer to the question depends upon how much noise
(either CCD noise or film grain) is in the image. If the peak-to-peak
amplitude of the noise is more than about four or five (in an eight-bit
image), then there is nothing to be gained by preserving more than eight
bits of resolution.

In practice, this means that for inexpensive, small-CCD digicams, eight bits
is enough, but for better digicams (e.g., 10D) or film scanners, you can
indeed see posterization in an 8-bit image.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Steve;

Not what I meant, exactly. I send layered files (6-8 deep sometimes) 
to the printer too. It 'handles' them by flattening or applying them 
in some way, otherwise you wouldn't get the adjustments or a 
composite image, etc. Bottom line is your printed image has had 
those adjustments applied-wether you can see degradation or not I 
think depends on...how extreme it is? I've seen choppiness (abrupt 
changes in tonality were there should have been a smooth ramp)in the 
lower values that I attributed to degradation, but it's rare, and 
I've never taken the time to prove/disprove the idea either 


Steve Karafyllakis
 
> Steve,
> 
> I cannot speak to more complex layers, but I do use an adjustment 
> layer at times to make last minute corrections before printing and 
> Epson printers seem to handle it without a problem.  They are 
simple 
> curves adjustments for brightness or contrast.
> 
> Steve
> 
> > 
> > I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 
> > most of these printer drivers are capable of processing a 
layered 
> > image-at some point it has to get flattened and your adjustments 
> > applied so doing as much as possible in 16-bit makes sense, at 
> least 
> > in theory. However,I seem to remember some rip-snorting 
arguments 
> on 
> > this forum as to wether or not you could actualy see the damage 
in 

> a 
> > print.
> > 
> > Steve Karafyllakis

> 
> I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 
> most of these printer drivers are capable of processing a layered 
> image-at some point it has to get flattened and your adjustments 
> applied so doing as much as possible in 16-bit makes sense, at 
least 
> in theory. However,I seem to remember some rip-snorting arguments 
on 
> this forum as to wether or not you could actualy see the damage in 
a 
> print.
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis

Steve

I don't think I was very clear as the responses have gone off on a 
tangent. I DO definately get degradation with 8 bit adjustments. I 
just wondered if there was any advantage to THE FINAL PRINT by doing 
those adjustments in an adjustment layer as opposed to the actual 
image file.

Garry Sarre
www.sarre.com.au

> From: Garry Sarre [mailto:garry@...]
>
> I don't think I was very clear as the responses have gone off on a
> tangent. I DO definately get degradation with 8 bit adjustments. I
> just wondered if there was any advantage to THE FINAL PRINT by doing
> those adjustments in an adjustment layer as opposed to the actual
> image file.

Until you get PSCS, which has 16-bit adjustment layers, you're probably
better off _not_ using adjustment layers, and staying in 16-bit mode. That
way, the adjustments won't cause posterization. The result will still get
converted to 8-bit data on the way to the printer driver, but at least each
gradation with be 1/256th of the range, instead of getting some gradations
that are only 1/128th of the range.

You sound like you're one of those people who really need PSCS.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

does anyone have a top-rate drum scan vendor they like to use who is
scanning 16bit and can scan negatives up to 7x17in?

also, does anyone have experience with Photoshop CS's enhanced support for
16bit workflow?

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Garry Sarre [mailto:garry@...]
  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 9:39 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Levels destruction in adjustment layers?


  >
  > I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think
  > most of these printer drivers are capable of processing a layered
  > image-at some point it has to get flattened and your adjustments
  > applied so doing as much as possible in 16-bit makes sense, at
  least
  > in theory. However,I seem to remember some rip-snorting arguments
  on
  > this forum as to wether or not you could actualy see the damage in
  a
  > print.
  >
  > Steve Karafyllakis

  Steve

  I don't think I was very clear as the responses have gone off on a
  tangent. I DO definately get degradation with 8 bit adjustments. I
  just wondered if there was any advantage to THE FINAL PRINT by doing
  those adjustments in an adjustment layer as opposed to the actual
  image file.

  Garry Sarre
  www.sarre.com.au


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Sarre" 
<garry@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 
> > most of these printer drivers are capable of processing a 
layered 
> > image-at some point it has to get flattened and your adjustments 
> > applied so doing as much as possible in 16-bit makes sense, at 
> least 
> > in theory. However,I seem to remember some rip-snorting 
arguments 
> on 
> > this forum as to wether or not you could actualy see the damage 
in 
> a 
> > print.
> > 
> > Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> Steve
> 
> I don't think I was very clear as the responses have gone off on a 
> tangent. I DO definately get degradation with 8 bit adjustments. I 
> just wondered if there was any advantage to THE FINAL PRINT by 
doing 
> those adjustments in an adjustment layer as opposed to the actual 
> image file.
> 
> Garry Sarre
> www.sarre.com.au

Garry;

Sorry, you're right we are of on a tangent; My take is that there is 
no advantage to the final print; the advantage is in keeping your 
file in good enough shape to re-adjust as often as you like with out 
accumulated degradation. BTW I got a MAC Mall catalogue in the mail 
yesterday, they had a 4-page add on PSCS, I hope it gets released on 
time; this is one time I'm willing to put up with product activation
w/out complaints!

Steve K

> Garry; I got a MAC Mall catalogue in the mail 
> yesterday, they had a 4-page add on PSCS, I hope it gets released on 
> time; this is one time I'm willing to put up with product activation
> w/out complaints!
> 
> Steve K

Hey Steve, it's now shipping! Got mine today! Don't know about Windows but on the 
Mac it's faster than Photoshop  7.

Mac has no activation this time around but maybe next year.

My experience was exactly the opposite. if I don't flatten the image before
printing I get posterisation.  It took me a while and many prints to work
out that it was the adjustment layers causing the posterisation.

I am using 
- Mac OSX 
- Epson Print Driver
- Roak NCA Curves
- MIS UT Inks

My workflow is now:

- Convert to 8 bit
- Adjust levels in Adjustment Layers
- Flatten
- Unsharp mask
- Apply Roark Curves 
- Print

This is producing the best prints I have ever made, but would be interested
to know if I the above process could be further improved.  Sounds like
Photoshop upgrade would help with 16bit adjustment layers.

js

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Kobrin [mailto:kobrins@...] 
Sent: 30 October 2003 21:34
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com


Steve,

I cannot speak to more complex layers, but I do use an adjustment 
layer at times to make last minute corrections before printing and 
Epson printers seem to handle it without a problem.  They are simple 
curves adjustments for brightness or contrast.

Steve

> 
> I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 
> most of these printer drivers are capable of processing a layered 
> image-at some point it has to get flattened and your adjustments 
> applied so doing as much as possible in 16-bit makes sense, at 
least 
> in theory. However,I seem to remember some rip-snorting arguments 
on 
> this forum as to wether or not you could actualy see the damage in 
a 
> print.
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From: John Swain [mailto:john.swain@...]
>
> My workflow is now:
>
> - Convert to 8 bit
> - Adjust levels in Adjustment Layers
> - Flatten
> - Unsharp mask
> - Apply Roark Curves
> - Print
>
> This is producing the best prints I have ever made, but would be
> interested
> to know if I the above process could be further improved.  Sounds like
> Photoshop upgrade would help with 16bit adjustment layers.

You might try doing the adjustments before converting to 8-bit. This of
course precludes the use of adjustment layers (until your copy of PSCS
arrives), but in 16-bit mode, who cares?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

The file is certainly flattened before it reaches the priinter though.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Kobrin" 
<kobrins@w...> wrote:

> 
> Steve,
> 
> I cannot speak to more complex layers, but I do use an adjustment 
> layer at times to make last minute corrections before printing and 
> Epson printers seem to handle it without a problem.  They are simple 
> curves adjustments for brightness or contrast.
> 
> Steve
> 
> > 
> > I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 
> > most of these printer drivers are capable of processing a layered 
> > image-at some point it has to get flattened and your adjustments 
> > applied so doing as much as possible in 16-bit makes sense, at 
> least 
> > in theory. However,I seem to remember some rip-snorting arguments 
> on 
> > this forum as to wether or not you could actualy see the damage in 
> a 
> > print.
> > 
> > Steve Karafyllakis