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clyde butcher carbon

clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-04 by borisw8

hi list.

just noticed in a recent newsletter that my idol/god/inspiration, 
etc. Clyde Butcher is now offering 'archival carbon prints'.  looks 
like he is using a large-format epson with ultra-chrome inks.

the really disturbing thing is that he is selling them for a 
fraction of what he is selling his traditional photographs for ($45.-
 for a carbon 11x14 as opposed to $375.- for a 11x14 
traditional !!!).  i assume they are neither limited nor signed.  if 
not, that could spell trouble for someone like me who is not as 
famous as he is and is asking a heck of a lot more for a 11x14 
carbon print.

anyway, the links is below if you are interested.

<http://clydebutcher.com/emarket2/home.cfm?emailid=64>

cheers,

boris

www.bawphoto.com

Re: [Digital BW] clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-04 by Carl Schofield

The digital prints he is selling are printed with UC inks on LexJet  
glossy paper.  I would think that bronzing might be a problem with that  
combo.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 02:52  PM, borisw8 wrote:

> hi list.
>
> just noticed in a recent newsletter that my idol/god/inspiration,
> etc. Clyde Butcher is now offering 'archival carbon prints'.  looks
> like he is using a large-format epson with ultra-chrome inks.
>
> the really disturbing thing is that he is selling them for a
> fraction of what he is selling his traditional photographs for ($45.-
>  for a carbon 11x14 as opposed to $375.- for a 11x14
> traditional !!!).  i assume they are neither limited nor signed.  if
> not, that could spell trouble for someone like me who is not as
> famous as he is and is asking a heck of a lot more for a 11x14
> carbon print.
>
> anyway, the links is below if you are interested.
>
> <http://clydebutcher.com/emarket2/home.cfm?emailid=64>
>
> cheers,
>
> boris
>
> www.bawphoto.com
>
>
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RE: [Digital BW] clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-04 by Martin Wesley

* -----Original Message-----
* From: borisw8 [mailto:boris@...] 
* Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 11:52 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: [Digital BW] clyde butcher carbon
* 
* 
* hi list.
* 
* just noticed in a recent newsletter that my idol/god/inspiration, 
* etc. Clyde Butcher is now offering 'archival carbon prints'.  looks 
* like he is using a large-format epson with ultra-chrome inks.
* 
* the really disturbing thing is that he is selling them for a 
* fraction of what he is selling his traditional photographs 
* for ($45.-  for a carbon 11x14 as opposed to $375.- for a 11x14 
* traditional !!!).  i assume they are neither limited nor signed.  if 
* not, that could spell trouble for someone like me who is not as 
* famous as he is and is asking a heck of a lot more for a 11x14 
* carbon print.
* 
* anyway, the links is below if you are interested.
* 
<http://clydebutcher.com/emarket2/home.cfm?emailid=64>

Boris,

That is a significant development. I am a real fan of Clyde's work. I have
always thought that the acceptance of digital B&W prints would depend upon
well known photographers switching to digital printing and the emergence of
new photographers who will have never done any traditional printing. So this
is a good step forward.

In your post you refer to his inkjet prints as carbon pigment prints but
they aren't. He is using Epson UltraChrome inks which are a full color ink
set using many different pigments. Since the display life of these inks is
lower than what people expect from silver gelatin or a carbon pigment inkjet
print that may explain his lower price. Or perhaps since he is still selling
silver prints as well, he is offering a lower price to steer buyers towards
his inkjet prints so that he does not have to spend so much time in the
darkroom. Or since they are on LexJet as Carl pointed out they don't look so
good. I have to say I would not be tempted to buy one of his inkjet prints
given the materials he is using. In any case setting prices is an individual
business decision and how Clyde prices his prints shouldn't effect how you
price yours.

Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Re: clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-04 by B. Alex Pettit Jr.

Yes, then again, realize that 11x14 mat contains only a 6x8" print 
($45) and the 18x22 matted has a 10x14" print ($190).

At roughly $1 per square inch, one of my 16x20 prints could be offered 
for about $320. Operators are standing by....

Best,
Alex





>Clyde Butcher is now offering 'archival carbon prints'.  looks 
> like he is using a large-format epson with ultra-chrome inks.
> 
> the really disturbing thing is that he is selling them for a 
> fraction of what he is selling his traditional photographs for ($45.
-
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>  for a carbon 11x14 as opposed to $375.- for a 11x14 
> traditional !!!).  
> 
> boris
> 
> www.bawphoto.com

Re: clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-04 by borisw8

> In your post you refer to his inkjet prints as carbon pigment 
prints but
> they aren't. He is using Epson UltraChrome inks which are a full 
color ink
> set using many different pigments. Since the display life of these 
inks is
> lower than what people expect from silver gelatin or a carbon 
pigment inkjet
> print that may explain his lower price.

Boy, I overlooked that.  He actually IS referring to them as 
carbon.  Here is an excerpt from his email:

"I'm very excited about the new Archival Carbon Prints that are now 
available in the both galleries and on the website."

Of course you are right in that the UC inks aren't.  Odd...


 Or perhaps since he is still selling
> silver prints as well,

You bet.  for $290.- - $8,000.- instead of $75.- - $795.- (framed)

I think I'm going to buy one to see what it looks like.  I can 
compare it too because I own one of his traditional sliver gelatin 
prints.

boris

RE: [Digital BW] Re: clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-05 by Martin Wesley

* -----Original Message-----
* From: borisw8 [mailto:boris@...] 
* Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:32 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: [Digital BW] Re: clyde butcher carbon
* 
(snip)
* 
*  Or perhaps since he is still selling
* > silver prints as well,
* 
* You bet.  for $290.- - $8,000.- instead of $75.- - $795.- (framed)
* 
* I think I'm going to buy one to see what it looks like.  I can 
* compare it too because I own one of his traditional sliver gelatin 
* prints.
* 
Boris,

If you do, let us know what you think. I am very curious.

Clyde is probably one of the people who could not adjust to the lower Dmax
of the carbon pigment inks on matte paper. He may be making a mistake on
those "display life" numbers though. The values Epson publishes are only
meaningful for the Epson papers actually tested. Of course he sure has a lot
of sun and humidity where he is at to do his own testing!

Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Re: [Digital BW] clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-05 by Tom Baker

All  -
 
(Here's a rant!)  I print with Ultrachrome, and I like it.  But, Clyde is doing a VERY SERIOUS DISERVICE to all of us if he is using Ultrachrom inks and calling them carbon.  I don't know the man, but if any of you do, you should have a little talk with him.  The work that Paul Roark, and the rest of you are doing with the caron inks will be greatly set back by this sort of thing.
 
Tom Baker
 
P.S.  I he is using carbon inks, I respectfully retract these statements.
 


borisw8 <boris@...> wrote:
hi list.

just noticed in a recent newsletter that my idol/god/inspiration, 
etc. Clyde Butcher is now offering 'archival carbon prints'.  looks 
like he is using a large-format epson with ultra-chrome inks.

the really disturbing thing is that he is selling them for a 
fraction of what he is selling his traditional photographs for ($45.-
for a carbon 11x14 as opposed to $375.- for a 11x14 
traditional !!!).  i assume they are neither limited nor signed.  if 
not, that could spell trouble for someone like me who is not as 
famous as he is and is asking a heck of a lot more for a 11x14 
carbon print.

anyway, the links is below if you are interested.

<http://clydebutcher.com/emarket2/home.cfm?emailid=64>

cheers,

boris

www.bawphoto.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-05 by Martin Wesley

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@sbcglobal.net] 
* Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:28 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: Re: [Digital BW] clyde butcher carbon
* 
* 
* All  -
*  
* (Here's a rant!)  I print with Ultrachrome, and I like it.  
* But, Clyde is doing a VERY SERIOUS DISERVICE to all of us if 
* he is using Ultrachrom inks and calling them carbon.  I don't 
* know the man, but if any of you do, you should have a little 
* talk with him.  The work that Paul Roark, and the rest of you 
* are doing with the caron inks will be greatly set back by 
* this sort of thing.
*  
* Tom Baker
*  
* P.S.  I he is using carbon inks, I respectfully retract these 
* statements.

Tom,

Clyde is using UltraChrome inks and does not claim that they are carbon
pigment. Boris mis-interpreted Clyde's statement on his site. There is a
tendency to not recognized the difference between the color pigment inks and
the carbon pigment grayscale inks. Not all pigment inkjet prints are the
same.

Martin
 
(snip earlier)

Re: clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-05 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> 
> * -----Original Message-----
> * From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@s...] 
> * Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:28 PM
> * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * Subject: Re: [Digital BW] clyde butcher carbon
> * 
> * 
> * All  -
> *  
> * (Here's a rant!)  I print with Ultrachrome, and I like it.  
> * But, Clyde is doing a VERY SERIOUS DISERVICE to all of us if 
> * he is using Ultrachrom inks and calling them carbon.  I don't 
> * know the man, but if any of you do, you should have a little 
> * talk with him.  The work that Paul Roark, and the rest of you 
> * are doing with the caron inks will be greatly set back by 
> * this sort of thing.
> *  
> * Tom Baker
> *  
> * P.S.  I he is using carbon inks, I respectfully retract these 
> * statements.
> 
> Tom,
> 
> Clyde is using UltraChrome inks and does not claim that they are carbon
> pigment. Boris mis-interpreted Clyde's statement on his site. There is a
> tendency to not recognized the difference between the color pigment inks and
> the carbon pigment grayscale inks. Not all pigment inkjet prints are the
> same.
> 
> Martin

Clyde is pretty clear that his prints use UltraChrome inks, but he does use
the term "archival carbon print" in his statement about digital prints.

I'm not sure but aren't the black and light-black UltraChrome inks based 
on carbon pigment?  The black inks are rated better than the color inks.

It seems to me whether someone is using UltraChrome inks with one of
the RIPs to use a minimal amount of color ink, or they are using one of
the quadtone ink sets, what you have on the paper is essentially the same.
In both cases you have primarily black carbon pigment plus a small 
amount of some color pigments to get the desired color tone.

The only issue I can see is the possible perception that the digital prints
are "cheap" versions of photographs.  I've certainly found that perception
come up regularly.  Those who make just inkjet prints want to think of
them as just another equivalent process -- i.e. you should charge the
same for the same image regardless of the process.  Those who want to
do both wet darkroom and inkjet prints may want to position them
differently to widen their market coverage.  I think both arguments have
merit but they are hard to reconcile.

Roy

RE: [Digital BW] Re: clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-05 by Martin Wesley

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@harrington.com] 
* Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 11:11 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: [Digital BW] Re: clyde butcher carbon
* 
* 
*
(snip earlier)
* 
* Clyde is pretty clear that his prints use UltraChrome inks, 
* but he does use the term "archival carbon print" in his 
* statement about digital prints.
* 
* I'm not sure but aren't the black and light-black UltraChrome 
* inks based 
* on carbon pigment?  The black inks are rated better than the 
* color inks.
* 
* It seems to me whether someone is using UltraChrome inks with 
* one of the RIPs to use a minimal amount of color ink, or they 
* are using one of the quadtone ink sets, what you have on the 
* paper is essentially the same. In both cases you have 
* primarily black carbon pigment plus a small 
* amount of some color pigments to get the desired color tone.
* 
* The only issue I can see is the possible perception that the 
* digital prints are "cheap" versions of photographs.  I've 
* certainly found that perception come up regularly.  Those who 
* make just inkjet prints want to think of them as just another 
* equivalent process -- i.e. you should charge the same for the 
* same image regardless of the process.  Those who want to do 
* both wet darkroom and inkjet prints may want to position them 
* differently to widen their market coverage.  I think both 
* arguments have merit but they are hard to reconcile.
* 
Roy,

You are right. Clyde does use the term "archival carbon print" in his
description of his prints. My deepest apologies to Boris! I missed it the on
the first and second read.

I still would take exception to calling UltraChrome prints carbon prints. I
can't find anywhere that Epson has identified their black pigment as carbon
but if someone knows otherwise please let me know. The C,M,Y inks certainly
can't be carbon. As I understand it, with most of the RIPs only the yellow
is not used in B&W printing to reduce metamerism but the four MmCc inks are
used along with K and light k. The amount of non-carbon pigment would depend
upon the workflow and how it was used. The non-carbon amount might be very
slight or it might be significant. Clyde could be using the Epson driver
with the gray balancer for all we know. Without seeing the prints and
knowing how he made them it is impossible to say. With only a black and a
light black I would think that the amount of other inks would have to be
significant.

I guess it is a matter of semantics but if you are using an ink set that
consists of at least 5 inks out of 7 that are not carbon I feel you are not
being entirely honest in saying they are "carbon prints".

If you want to be strictly honest only the Carbon Sepia Piezotone inks
should be called "carbon prints" since all other ink sets use some color
pigments to achieve their hue. Once MIS converts their ink sets to dilutions
of Eboni they would also be pure carbon. This assumes that the promotional
material I have read on these inks is correct.

The other thing to keep in mind is that some color pigments, especially
Cyan, have shown excellent fade resistance and when mixed with carbon
improved image stability.

I guess it is a judgment call. For myself I feel comfortable calling all the
Piezotone sets, MIS Full Spectrum, MIS Variable Mix and MIS UltraTone inks
"carbon" since that is the predominant pigment even though tiny amounts of
other pigments are used in some of them. Extending the term "carbon" to a
full CcMcYKk set of unspecified content seems to be stretching things too
far but that is my own take on it.

In terms of longevity my opinion is that a carbon based ink set on high
quality archival paper is going to hold up much better than the UltraChromes
on RC paper. We will have to wait and see but I doubt I will live long
enough to find out which one wins. If Epson is correct in their display life
estimates, probably very few of the members of this group will find out
either. So in the long run the argument may be entirely unimportant but at
this stage I am inclined to favor a distinction between B&W prints made with
grayscale carbon ink sets and B&W prints made with color pigment ink sets.

Martin

Re: [Digital BW] Re: clyde butcher carbon

2003-11-05 by Tom Baker

Perhaps, since I am printing only with Ultrachrome, it shouldn't really matter to me if Clyde calls his prints 'carbon'.  However, I really hate to see the work that those of you who are doing serious work to perfect a long-lived carbon based process, lumped together with the other 'inkjet' processes.  In five years (or less) or so, such discussion won't be relevant.  But, now, as this process is evolving, I think that differentiation is important to help people understand what's going on, and what it means long term.
 
Also, from an artistic and collectable photography perspective, this evolving 'carbon' based process may untimately be be important.  Certainly, from a purely 'preservation' perspective, it may well be THE way things are done.
 
Tom Baker

Roy Harrington <roy@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> 
> * -----Original Message-----
> * From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@s...] 
> * Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:28 PM
> * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * Subject: Re: [Digital BW] clyde butcher carbon
> * 
> * 
> * All  -
> *  
> * (Here's a rant!)  I print with Ultrachrome, and I like it.  
> * But, Clyde is doing a VERY SERIOUS DISERVICE to all of us if 
> * he is using Ultrachrom inks and calling them carbon.  I don't 
> * know the man, but if any of you do, you should have a little 
> * talk with him.  The work that Paul Roark, and the rest of you 
> * are doing with the caron inks will be greatly set back by 
> * this sort of thing.
> *  
> * Tom Baker
> *  
> * P.S.  I he is using carbon inks, I respectfully retract these 
> * statements.
> 
> Tom,
> 
> Clyde is using UltraChrome inks and does not claim that they are carbon
> pigment. Boris mis-interpreted Clyde's statement on his site. There is a
> tendency to not recognized the difference between the color pigment inks and
> the carbon pigment grayscale inks. Not all pigment inkjet prints are the
> same.
> 
> Martin

Clyde is pretty clear that his prints use UltraChrome inks, but he does use
the term "archival carbon print" in his statement about digital prints.

I'm not sure but aren't the black and light-black UltraChrome inks based 
on carbon pigment?  The black inks are rated better than the color inks.

It seems to me whether someone is using UltraChrome inks with one of
the RIPs to use a minimal amount of color ink, or they are using one of
the quadtone ink sets, what you have on the paper is essentially the same.
In both cases you have primarily black carbon pigment plus a small 
amount of some color pigments to get the desired color tone.

The only issue I can see is the possible perception that the digital prints
are "cheap" versions of photographs.  I've certainly found that perception
come up regularly.  Those who make just inkjet prints want to think of
them as just another equivalent process -- i.e. you should charge the
same for the same image regardless of the process.  Those who want to
do both wet darkroom and inkjet prints may want to position them
differently to widen their market coverage.  I think both arguments have
merit but they are hard to reconcile.

Roy



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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




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