Digital BW, The Print

Previously I have been shooting with a D100. Due to a few "quirks" as 
I'll call them I decided to go back to film. I recently got a Minolta 
5400 scanner and have printed about a dozen images on my 1280 with UT 
inks. 

Now previously if anyone has seen threads I've posted before about 
lines running through the prints I've made. I've sent prints to other 
members and one I know of noticed these lines too on the image I 
specified. All the images that I had problems with the lines in the 
prints came from a digital camera (90% on a D100 and a couple from a 
Olympus C4000z). All of the prints thus far that I've printed from 
scanning film show none of these lines at all. But I can go back to a 
D100 image, print and the lines are there.

So as weird as this seems, would there be any logical reason for 
this? I mean aside from the different input devices I've tried 
setting up images the same as best I could for some kind of 
consistancey. The scanner does output at higher dpi, but all I've 
been trying to print thus far is 8x10's. If anyone has any thoughts 
or opinions on this please post I would love to hear them. Thanks!

matt

> From: Matt Betea [mailto:mbetea@...]
>
> Now previously if anyone has seen threads I've posted before about
> lines running through the prints I've made. I've sent prints to other
> members and one I know of noticed these lines too on the image I
> specified. All the images that I had problems with the lines in the
> prints came from a digital camera (90% on a D100 and a couple from a
> Olympus C4000z). All of the prints thus far that I've printed from
> scanning film show none of these lines at all. But I can go back to a
> D100 image, print and the lines are there.
>
> So as weird as this seems, would there be any logical reason for
> this? I mean aside from the different input devices I've tried
> setting up images the same as best I could for some kind of
> consistancey. The scanner does output at higher dpi, but all I've
> been trying to print thus far is 8x10's. If anyone has any thoughts
> or opinions on this please post I would love to hear them. Thanks!

It's possible the lower dpi has something to do with it. Try resampling to
the same dpi.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

I'm posting here as a character witness to Matt, just in case
anyone thinks he's legally insane. <g>  I sent prints to Matt, one from
my D100 and one from a scanned negative, both printed on my 1280.  He
noticed on my images also that the image from the D100 had light banding
while the scanned image exhibited no banding.  Mind you, the D100 image
banding was very slight and I had not even noticed it, but when Matt
suggested that, I did a little research and did indeed find it to be the
case in most of my prints.
     This really might be a new and legitimate realization that merits
some sort of testing and explanation.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Betea [mailto:mbetea@...] 
<snip>
> Now previously if anyone has seen threads I've posted before about 
> lines running through the prints I've made. I've sent prints to other 
> members and one I know of noticed these lines too on the image I 
> specified. All the images that I had problems with the lines in the 
> prints came from a digital camera (90% on a D100 and a couple from a 
> Olympus C4000z). All of the prints thus far that I've printed from 
> scanning film show none of these lines at all. But I can go back to a 
> D100 image, print and the lines are there.
<snip>

> So as weird as this seems, would there be any logical reason for
> this?

If the only thing that changes is the image capture device, then the
image capture device is the source of the problem.  You may have a
defective CCD on the digital camera.  Lines in a digital image are
defects in the CCD; perfectly straight lines in a scanned film image
that are consistent from image to image and from film to film are
usually defects in the scanner (again, in the CCD of the scanner).
Non-perfect lines in a single roll of scanned film are usually scratches
on the film, and most lines on film come from lab carelessness during
development.  If lines appear on many films from the same camera but not
on films from other cameras, there may be something in the camera that
is scratching the emulsion.

There are some other remote possibilities, like unusual interpolation
artifacts in the printer (a possibility if you are getting the same
lines from two different digicams, especially if they both have the same
pixel dimensions).  Another possibility is a defect in the printer that
is masked by the grain of most film scans but is easier to see against
the normally grainless backgrounds of digicam photos.  It would have to
be extraordinarily subtle to show only on prints from digicam shots,
though.

> He noticed on my images also that the image from the D100 had light banding
> while the scanned image exhibited no banding.  Mind you, the D100 image
> banding was very slight and I had not even noticed it, but when Matt
> suggested that, I did a little research and did indeed find it to be the
> case in most of my prints.

Banding?  That's different from a single line of difference.

If the banding is not apparent when examining the image on the screen,
it's the printer.  If the banding occurs only on digicam photos, it's
probably an artifact of interpolation.  Try upsampling or downsampling
to other resolutions and see if the bands change or disappear on
printing; if they do, this is the problem.

Thats the thing. The image from the camera (when viewing on the 
computer) is fine. No signs of these lines at all. 
> If the only thing that changes is the image capture device, then the
> image capture device is the source of the problem.  You may have a
> defective CCD on the digital camera.  Lines in a digital image are
> defects in the CCD; perfectly straight lines in a scanned film image
> that are consistent from image to image and from film to film are
> usually defects in the scanner (again, in the CCD of the scanner).
> Non-perfect lines in a single roll of scanned film are usually 
scratches
> on the film, and most lines on film come from lab carelessness 
during
> development.  If lines appear on many films from the same camera 
but not
> on films from other cameras, there may be something in the camera 
that
> is scratching the emulsion.
> 
> There are some other remote possibilities, like unusual 
interpolation
> artifacts in the printer (a possibility if you are getting the same
> lines from two different digicams, especially if they both have the 
same
> pixel dimensions).  Another possibility is a defect in the printer 
that
> is masked by the grain of most film scans but is easier to see 
against
> the normally grainless backgrounds of digicam photos.  It would 
have to
> be extraordinarily subtle to show only on prints from digicam shots,
> though.

I don't know if I've used banding in the wrong context or what. But 
what I see is faint lines in the direction the printhead travels. 
Almost like it misses a last pass of ink on that line. It's not like 
bold blank stripes showing in the images. They're subtle but, at 
least to me, very noticable. Yes I've tried doing alignments for 
different papers, changing the thickness lever, etc. 

As far as interpolation artifacts, I don't know. None of these images 
that I've printed with the D100 have been up or downsized. Maybe 
cropped, but I was never concerned with getting a specific print 
size, because I was only looking at the quality. So prints from 
digicams for me having always been their native size or smaller (on 
the D100 I think it's 6.667x10.224@300). I've tried though too 
downsampling the images to 240ppi and 360ppi. At 240,300 and 360 the 
lines are there.
> Banding?  That's different from a single line of difference.
> 
> If the banding is not apparent when examining the image on the 
screen,
> it's the printer.  If the banding occurs only on digicam photos, 
it's
> probably an artifact of interpolation.  Try upsampling or 
downsampling
> to other resolutions and see if the bands change or disappear on
> printing; if they do, this is the problem.

> From: Matt Betea [mailto:mbetea@...]
>
> As far as interpolation artifacts, I don't know. None of these images
> that I've printed with the D100 have been up or downsized. Maybe
> cropped, but I was never concerned with getting a specific print
> size, because I was only looking at the quality. So prints from
> digicams for me having always been their native size or smaller (on
> the D100 I think it's 6.667x10.224@300). I've tried though too
> downsampling the images to 240ppi and 360ppi. At 240,300 and 360 the
> lines are there.

If you could post a crop from an area of the image file where you see lines
in the print, we might be able to rule out anything in the image file.

Also, what OS are you running, what app are you printing from, and what
version? This was a 1280, right?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Matt,

Don't know if this will help, but I recently had a very similar issue--faint
lines in the direction of the print head--with my Epson 2200/ImagePrint
setup. Initially, I thought I was seeing banding mostly because I had not
had any problems up to that point. I performed the usual things: head
cleaning/nozzle check cycles, head alignment, etc., but, though the faint
lines got a little more faint following these steps, they were still there!
For whatever reason, I brought up the Epson printer driver dialog in PS and
clicked on the Monitor button. I noticed immediately that two of the
cartridges had only about 6% ink remaining--no blinking lights on the
printer or any other indication that they needed changing. I swapped out the
two low cartridges and ran another print out of IP..."banding", faint lines,
or whatever, gone! Go figure...in nearly 4 years of digital B&W printing I
had never seen low ink level cartridges cause any issues. Maybe it's just my
2200, but you might want to check it out.

Good luck,
Alan Huntley

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Matt Betea" <mbetea@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital cameras vs. Film Scanner


> I don't know if I've used banding in the wrong context or what. But
> what I see is faint lines in the direction the printhead travels.
> Almost like it misses a last pass of ink on that line. It's not like
> bold blank stripes showing in the images. They're subtle but, at
> least to me, very noticable. Yes I've tried doing alignments for
> different papers, changing the thickness lever, etc.